View Poll Results: How will or would you vote in a referendum for Scottish

Voters
644. You may not vote on this poll
  • I am Scottish - Yes

    24 3.73%
  • I am Scottish - No

    17 2.64%
  • I am from another part of the UK - Yes

    32 4.97%
  • I am from another part of the UK - No

    115 17.86%
  • I am from outside the UK - Yes

    260 40.37%
  • I am from outside the UK - No

    196 30.43%
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Thread: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

  1. #1801
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I personally loved the "Not enough people voted, clearly the rest are still making up their minds" excuse from the Glasgow Uni poll, even though they went all in and brought the Deputy First Minister in to try to win a meaningless poll.

    Also, 15,000th post woohoo. Ferrets don't you piss on my bonfire here!
    Last edited by Poach; February 22, 2013 at 08:52 AM.

  2. #1802
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    15000 Posts shows an independent Scotland would be able to maintain a strong internet presence. This is perhaps the strongest argument yet for independence.

  3. #1803
    The Great Montrose's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    I personally loved the "Not enough people voted, clearly the rest are still making up their minds" excuse from the Glasgow Uni poll, even though they went all in and brought the Deputy First Minister in to try to win a meaningless poll.

    Also, 15,000th post woohoo. Ferrets don't you piss on my bonfire here!
    Well actually yes that is a good reason. If only around 3000 people out of 20,000 something then your not going to get an accurate reading of results are you?

    I dont think it's because all of those who didnt vote havent made up their mind although a large proportion will still not have decided whether to vote YES or No. This points to a large problem in politics, the fact that people are loosing intrest in voting which is a serious problem that must be adressed.

    And I actually dont think 38% is that bad a result for the YES campaign, ovbiously it should be higher but with over a year to go until the real referendum I would say thats a reasonable amount.

    I look foward to the next year and I know that I shall be taking an active part in the YES campaign anyone else ?
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  4. #1804

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    I have to say I am a bit confused, first you claimed to be supportive of Scotland. Then you proceed to belittle the place. I guess now I will have to take the time to describe the Scottish economy to you. But really why should I as you have obviously not even looked at it yourself before coming to the conclusion we are somehow a failed state. The fact is Scotland is a modern, open economy and is rich in economic potential and natural resources. Our broad industrial base includes core industries such as Financial and Business Services, Renewable Energy, Food and Drink, Life Sciences, Sustainable Tourism, Universities and the Creative Industries. Scotland has twice been voted ‘European Region of the Future’ in the last four years by Financial Times’ Foreign Direct Investment magazine, so they obviously see something you don't.
    You are obviously confused about the points I'm making if you think I'm belittling it by stating that it currently doesn't have a very viable economy. Sure, Scotland could survive independently. But the real question is, will it thrive independently? The SNP has got to come up with more detailed strategies than just the oil. What about wind? Scotland has plenty of it.

    Scots in this very thread have plainly stated as much.

    Who said it would have destroyed anything, I am confused as to why you can not even acknowledge how much of a role oil played in developing Texas into the economic powerhouse it is today. It is as if you are saying it wasn't that important.
    You are implying that without the oil, Texas would not have become an economic powerhouse. Maybe not as big as it is now, but it wouldn't have been poor either. Texas had already been a lucrative state before oil became such a highly prized commodity for the reason I already described to you - cotton. There is possibly more natural gas here than there is oil.

    But anyway, you are getting lost in just one example. Chile is a great example of a country with a diverse economy in a boom without a reliance on oil exports, due to a very lucrative mining and manufacturing boom.

    So let me ask you again, what would Texas have done if the US government in Washington DC had said all the oil revenues belong to the Federal Government? Texas is part of the US right? Does the Federal Government not have the right to collect all that oil and spend the money where they see fit?
    I answered you, in full, in the previous post. No, it does not have that authority. Extremely few industries are ever administered federally. Most are private companies from all over the US. Moving on.

    It could fund housing for low income people living in New York or Chicago or it could be used to feed low income families all across the US by paying for food stamp programs. Instead it generated revenues for Texas on a local level, permits and taxes were collected locally, land was leased or sold to the highest bidder. It really must have been nice to actually own what belonged to you, right?
    Texas has a state income and corporate tax rate of 0%...

    I wonder if you would also feel that way if the US government had done the same thing in Texas, as Texas is also a member of the US.
    ... and what about BP in the Gulf of Mexico? You think that only Texan companies have ownership shares?

    I know the point you are trying really hard to drive into this, but no I'm sorry that would not happen here. The only comparable situation I can think of is if Texas seceded from the union and then had to negotiate the boundary of ownership in the Gulf. Obviously, Texas would have to purchase any oil rigs in the Gulf owned by other American companies. But, unlike Britain I guess, the American government does not actually own the drills or the companies.

    According to the Government and Expenditure Revenue Scotland 2010-11, Scotland contributed 9.6% of UK public sector revenue and received 9.3% of total UK public sector expenditure, including a per capita share of UK debt interest payments. Scotland's population is 8.4% of the UK total. So you see that is including the per capita share of UK debt, we are already paying the debt and have been for over 300 years.
    K, I'll concede on the overall deficit issue, but there is still a spending problem as I pointed out. It is currently still spending over 10 billion more than it is raising.

    That is the entire debt so I hardly think Scotland will inherit the whole thing. We will get our share, no doubt about it, but then again we are already paying for it right now as we speak. At least we will get one lump sum, pay it off and be done with it forever. Future debts will be whatever we the people of Scotland decide to take on ourselves, less war, no Nuclear upkeep, it all adds up you know. We will be in the Black in no time just you wait and see. With responsibility for our own finances and our own vast natural resources, we will be able to make choices in our own best interests. With independence, we would control the fiscal levers we need to suit our own economic circumstances, and maximise Scotland's potential to secure new investment and jobs. Just like Texas.
    I understand your point, but the difference being that Texas is not seeking independence. We're better off in the union.

    I hear you, and really do appreciate you honest candor. It is refreshing to have a smart well thought out discussion with someone for a change. Things around here seem to have degraded to one liners for the most part. I hope you understand though, that Scotland has been going through this process for generations not just a few years. The changes are happening but we really can not do much more with one hand tied behind our backs. We must have fiscal power to make real change.
    Well I'm glad you are not mistaking my points for the typical rants. I think the key difference in our perspectives is that Scotland does have the power to manage its own budget, thus it can make way for certain improvements, and that while the south in the UK does eat up most of the attention and wealth, it isn't to blame for all of Scotland's woes. It has been equally neglected by its own leadership and citizens unfortunately. People can strive to make it better now, rather than continuing on an unsustainable path towards more rigorously towards the economic left. From the election maps that I've seen, the Scottish northerners and highlanders seem to understand this and tend to vote more third party or right but the lowlands and Edinburgh are still staunchly Labour loyalists and have grown too dependent on the system it has set up.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; February 22, 2013 at 10:15 AM.
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  5. #1805
    selder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobz View Post
    I left out the Euro, as Selder was arguing for using the pound without establishing a formal currency union or having a joint institution like the ECB.
    I was not saying that. In fact I argued
    you seem to think that just because Scotland becomes politically independent, it also mean we have to completely sever all ties with the UK. That is not the case. Independence will be political, Scotland will retain our social union with the rest of the UK
    why would we not establish a currency union if it is in the best interest of both countries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    Currency unions aren't very rare.
    Which is why I specifically mentioned Kosovo and Monaco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    Selder's wrong anyway
    How was I wrong? Not to mention you should be criticizing the post not the poster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pielstick
    If the bid for independence fails Scotland will most likely gain even more devolved power
    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker
    No, it does not have that authority. Extremely few industries are ever administered federally. Most are private companies from all over the US. Moving on.
    But this was the entire point I was trying to make, I used the example of Texas for a reason. I was not implying anything about the State not being successful with or without oil. You see in developed countries with a federal structure, oil is as a rule primarily under the ownership and to a significant extent control of the federated state. It is only in federated countries of the Third World that the national government tends to reserve all or the main part of resource ownership and benefits to itself. But oil ownership, control, tax powers, and administration has been reserved to the UK rather than to the Scottish authorities. I would like to see this change.

    But, unlike Britain I guess, the American government does not actually own the drills or the companies.
    Britain does not own the drills or companies either, that is the sad part. We are exactly the same as Texas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker
    I understand your point, but the difference being that Texas is not seeking independence. We're better off in the union.
    This is a very good point, I believe Scotland would be better off in a union like the one Texas is in. We are not however, we have nothing like States' Rights. Imagine a Texas that could not raise its own revenue, set its own tax rates. You pointed out yourself that Texas sets its state income and corporate tax rate of 0%, Scotland does not have the power to make those types of decisions. Imagine a US that is run completely from Washington with state governments simply deciding how to spend the budget that is allocated to them from the federal level, this is the relationship between Holyrood and Westminster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker
    I think the key difference in our perspectives is that Scotland does have the power to manage its own budget, thus it can make way for certain improvements
    Actually we share the same perspective, I agree we have the power to manage our own budget. My point is we should also have the power to create our own budget not just manage it. Its a lot like when you are a child and receive an allowance vs. when you become an adult and can make your own money.
    Last edited by selder; February 22, 2013 at 11:26 PM.
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  6. #1806
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    Well actually yes that is a good reason. If only around 3000 people out of 20,000 something then your not going to get an accurate reading of results are you?
    Well considering most polls are probably still within the thousands, I would say it's a pretty accurate mark of the feelings within that particular university.
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  7. #1807
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    Well considering most polls are probably still within the thousands, I would say it's a pretty accurate mark of the feelings within that particular university.
    Thats true, 87.5% of them obviously felt that participating in a mock referendum was a total waste of their time.
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  8. #1808
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    Thats true, 87.5% of them obviously felt that participating in a mock referendum was a total waste of their time.
    Ah, so what you're saying is that more than 80% of Scottish students don't care about the referendum? Brilliant. We can call this whole referendum thing off then.

    I don't even know what you're complaining about, the yes vote was higher in the mock referendum than the polls would indicate. Would have assumed you'd have been trumpeting this as some kind of victory.
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  9. #1809
    selder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    Ah, so what you're saying is that more than 80% of Scottish students don't care about the referendum? Brilliant. We can call this whole referendum thing off then.

    I don't even know what you're complaining about, the yes vote was higher in the mock referendum than the polls would indicate. Would have assumed you'd have been trumpeting this as some kind of victory.
    complaining? who is complaining? Why would I think the results to a mock referendum at a college was some kind of victory? I will be trumpeting the real one, as it is the only one that matters to me. Same goes for polls for that matter as they mean very little, they just cause information cascades, which is their true purpose in the first place. I mean what value is there in letting the public know what the public already thinks?

    Did you notice you called it 'the referendum' in your first sentence but then went on to call it 'the mock referendum'?
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  10. #1810

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post


    How was I wrong? Not to mention you should be criticizing the post not the poster.
    lol, I hate how the staff's implementation of the ToS has made people with ****** little views think they are above criticism. I was criticising your post, if you think otherwise try reporting me.

    Regardless: you were wrong in claiming that Scotland would have control of the currency. It would use GBP, and would be controlled by the Bank of England. Or at least that's what the SNP claim, right now, before they have to change their policy yet again.

  11. #1811
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    complaining? who is complaining?
    You are. Why else make a snide comment about most of the university campus not voting? It doesn't degrade anything about the vote. Polls often only have a thousand people in them.
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  12. #1812
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    If only around 3000 people out of 20,000 something then your not going to get an accurate reading of results are you?
    That's very reasonable and I can't say I disagree.

    However, a few pages earlier in this thread, when talking about the 1979 devolution referendum which failed due to a very low voter turnout you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    You forgot to mention the fact that we were cheated out of devoloution in 1979...
    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    You cant force people to vote when it's not compulsory. So the fact that the 40% rule was in is undemocratic. A vote was held, the Yes vote won that referendum yet we didnt gain a parliament.
    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    The main thing is that the majority of those who voted voted for devoloution and that wasnt given.
    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    It does when so so little people vote. Only 60% of the electorate voted but the majority however small voted yes. That means that the majority of those who voted voted yes. But devoloution was not granted. How is that democratic?

    So it would appear that when a vote with low turnout goes a way you like, it's all fair and proper. When a vote with low turnout goes a way you don't like it doesn't count because it was low turnout.

    How very telling


  13. #1813

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Owned.

  14. #1814
    selder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    lol, I hate how the staff's implementation of the ToS has made people with ****** little views think they are above criticism. I was criticising your post, if you think otherwise try reporting me.
    I don't have to report, all I have to do is remind people that saying someone is wrong is not addressing their argument. It is simply stating an opinion about the person, as for my post, if it is in fact wrong then it shouldn't be too hard to argue against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    Regardless: you were wrong in claiming that Scotland would have control of the currency. It would use GBP, and would be controlled by the Bank of England. Or at least that's what the SNP claim, right now, before they have to change their policy yet again.
    Where did I say Scotland would have control over Sterling? Nowhere, so I still don't see anything wrong. Another fail for the record.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans
    You are. Why else make a snide comment about most of the university campus not voting? It doesn't degrade anything about the vote. Polls often only have a thousand people in them.
    Since when was pointing out a fact/the truth considered snide? The fact remains that only 12% of the entire school chose to participate, you can't really draw any conclusions from that as I assume those who did had a particular bias to begin with. Unless you think that only 12% of the Scottish population will participate in the referendum in 2014 that is. As for polls, you are mixing up a mock referendum with a poll. Polling Identifies and selects potential sample members, all thousand or so of them. Contacts sampled individuals and collects data from those, even those who are hard to reach. So you see the mock referendum did not do any of this and can not be compared with a poll. For the record I am not degrading the results, I am simply framing them in the proper context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pielstick
    So it would appear that when a vote with low turnout goes a way you like, it's all fair and proper. When a vote with low turnout goes a way you don't like it doesn't count because it was low turnout.
    Are you actually comparing a turnout of 63.8% with that of 12%? I mean this is getting silly, bitter together no other way to put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans
    make a snide comment
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    So much for the youth vote. Or at least the intelligent youth vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    Yeah well, Selder's wrong anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    Owned.
    Now those are just a few examples of snide remarks, for other examples just search Ferrets54 in the Forum Search.
    In the garb of old Gaul, with the fire of old Rome,
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  15. #1815
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    Since when was pointing out a fact/the truth considered snide? The fact remains that only 12% of the entire school chose to participate, you can't really draw any conclusions from that as I assume those who did had a particular bias to begin with.
    I didn't. I said it was likely an accurate mark of that particular university's feelings. Which it would be. Since it's around 10% of the population of that school.

    Now those are just a few examples of snide remarks, for other examples just search Ferrets54 in the Forum Search.
    Not particularly. You took my comment completely out of context and proceeded to mock my conclusions. I simply made an observation about your post.
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  16. #1816
    selder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    I didn't. I said it was likely an accurate mark of that particular university's feelings. Which it would be. Since it's around 10% of the population of that school.
    And I agreed with you, but came to a different conclusion. Like I said, it showed me that 85% of the university did not feel particularly interested in participating in a mock referendum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans
    Not particularly. You took my comment completely out of context and proceeded to mock my conclusions. I simply made an observation about your post.
    I really don't know why you think I was mocking you just because I have a different opinion. I have given some clear examples of mockery and nothing I have said in reference to your post comes even close to that level. For the record though, are you saying the examples I provided were not snide/mocking?
    In the garb of old Gaul, with the fire of old Rome,
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  17. #1817
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    And I agreed with you, but came to a different conclusion. Like I said, it showed me that 85% of the university did not feel particularly interested in participating in a mock referendum.
    So? It doesn't disprove my conclusion at all. It's clear you were mocking my conclusion on the basis that most of the university didn't participate. You're not coming to a conclusion. You're just stating the statistics.

    I really don't know why you think I was mocking you just because I have a different opinion. I have given some clear examples of mockery and nothing I have said in reference to your post comes even close to that level. For the record though, are you saying the examples I provided were not snide/mocking?
    I'm referring to my comment only. I do not care about the others.
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  18. #1818
    selder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    So? It doesn't disprove my conclusion at all. It's clear you were mocking my conclusion on the basis that most of the university didn't participate. You're not coming to a conclusion. You're just stating the statistics.
    First of all, I apologize if you think that I was mocking you in any way, I assure you that was not my intention. I will try to clear it up if I can. You made the statement...
    I would say it's a pretty accurate mark of the feelings within that particular university.
    I responded with...
    Thats true, 87.5% of them obviously felt that participating in a mock referendum was a total waste of their time.
    So you see, I agreed with your premiss that it was an accurate measurement of the feeling within that school. But instead to me the feeling was that of apathy, as only 12.5% chose to participate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans
    I'm referring to my comment only. I do not care about the others.
    Fair enough, but I do care, I have been a member of this forum since 2005. I may not have the highest post count, or win any popularity contests around here, but I will not turn a blind eye when our fellow members stray too far outside the lines or engage in pettiness especially when directed at other members. We are a community after all and no matter what our differences of opinion, we should be supportive of one another.
    In the garb of old Gaul, with the fire of old Rome,
    From the heath-covered mountains of Scotia we come;
    Our loud-sounding pipe breathes the true martial strain,
    And our hearts still the old Scottish valour retain.

  19. #1819

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Oh no! Saying Selder is wrong = snide comment.

    Honestly Selder if you can't disprove what others contradict you with and have to whine about people being "snide" to you then maybe you should change your views?

  20. #1820
    selder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Oh no! Saying Selder is wrong = snide comment.

    Honestly Selder if you can't disprove what others contradict you with and have to whine about people being "snide" to you then maybe you should change your views?
    I am still waiting for that supposed contradiction...

    Oh and when I was referring to the mocking, it was not on my behalf, more on behalf of the community as a whole. Like I said I have been here too long to care what some member thinks of me personally, I just don't like how they treat some of the other members and the way they go about it, thats all.

    So lets have it folks...back to the debate at hand...contradict away.
    In the garb of old Gaul, with the fire of old Rome,
    From the heath-covered mountains of Scotia we come;
    Our loud-sounding pipe breathes the true martial strain,
    And our hearts still the old Scottish valour retain.

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