Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

[selder]

According to one poll. I linked a poll from the BBC website that said only 23% want independence. On the page before this.

Yes it was also posted a few pages back by Ferrets, but we are discussing the poll that andy was referring to. The poll you posted is from polling done last year, the one andy posted is form last month.

Pretty funny how our nationalists only ever acknowledge positive sources for them, and are unwilling to properly source even those!why are they scared of open analysis?

We already went over that poll so I don't know why you are trying to imply it wasn't acknowledged. Here it is if you would like to see it, I already looked over it days ago when it was released. You will be happy to know that

Nearly two-thirds (64%) of Scots feel that the Scottish Parliament should make the important decisions for Scotland about the level of welfare benefits, while 56% say the same about tax levels.

Lets see what Westminster will be offer us this time to stay, maybe we should analyse that.

[neoptolemos]

The parliament can make decisions based on an increased autonomy status not necessarily with independence though.
I love Scotland and Scottish people after living there and among them but breaking from UK seems a wrong perspective to me.

[Sir Pignans]

Yes it was also posted a few pages back by Ferrets, but we are discussing the poll that andy was referring to. The poll you posted is from polling done last year, the one andy posted is form last month.

The poll I posted ended in November. A mere two months before Andy's poll, and is thus still pretty relevant.

[removeduser_487563287433]

The poll I posted ended in November. A mere two months before Andy's poll, and is thus still pretty relevant.

You don't understand. It's not relevant because it doesn't back them up. We must only focus on their poll from only the last three months, because it supports them more. Don't you see?

[selder]

It's not relevant because it doesn't back them up. We must only focus on their poll from only the last three months, because it supports them more. Don't you see?

No one is saying it is not relevant, simply that it is outdated. Do you not understand that a poll conducted between July and November 2012 is old news. The poll that andy and yourself were discussing was conducted between 4-9 February 2013. This would make the newer poll more accurate at determining current opinion. You really are taking this way to personal Ferrets, no one is saying you must only focus on anything, only that we should look at current data to determine current trends.

According to one poll.

Yes, you are right that different polls may show different results. It is well established that the wording of the questions, the order in which they are asked and the number and form of alternative answers offered can influence results of polls. The ScotCen poll you posted asked if ‘Scotland should become independent, separate from the UK’. The poll andy posted and conducted by Ipsos MORI used the actual question that will be used at the referendum, 'Should Scotland be an independent country?'. I would say that that in itself makes the Ipsos MORI poll more accurate at measuring how people will vote.

As a person of Scottish heritage, it would be wonderful to see an independent Scotland someday. But the time is not now. Scotland requires a significant degree of reforms to bring itself out of the red and actually produce an economy that could realistically survive independently.

I am glad to hear not everyone is against the idea of an independent Scotland. All I can say about the timing though is you have to remember this has been a long process...starting with the 1853 "home rule" movement, leading up to the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the signing of the Claim of Right in 1988. This then led to devolution in 1999, so you see it was hardly handed to us. You are correct that it is imperative we get the economics right, but it really is a catch 22 as we need the power in order to make significant reforms. We could use our own resources, tax codes, and international trade to create said economy without having to rely on a government that only thinks of its own needs down in London.

[removeduser_487563287433]

No one is saying it is not relevant, simply that it is outdated.

It's not. It covers a greater time frame. I did consider your poll, adjusting the rise in support with the massive decline over the last year. Only the nationalists are cherry picking numbers here.

[The Great Montrose]

I am glad to hear not everyone is against the idea of an independent Scotland. All I can say about the timing though is you have to remember this has been a long process...starting with the 1853 "home rule" movement, leading up to the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the signing of the Claim of Right in 1988. This then led to devolution in 1999, so you see it was hardly handed to us. You are correct that it is imperative we get the economics right, but it really is a catch 22 as we need the power in order to make significant reforms. We could use our own resources, tax codes, and international trade to create said economy without having to rely on a government that only thinks of its own needs down in London.

You forgot to mention the fact that we were cheated out of devoloution in 1979...

[removeduser_487563287433]

You forgot to mention the fact that we were cheated out of devoloution in 1979...

When this guy says cheated, what he actually means a democratic referendum was held and it failed because 40% of the Scottish electorate failed to vote yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottis...ferendum,_1979

But hey, it's always a sign of a weak political position when you feel you need to mislead people about the facts.

[The Great Montrose]

When this guy says cheated, what he actually means a democratic referendum was held and it failed because 40% of the Scottish electorate failed to vote yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottis...ferendum,_1979

But hey, it's always a sign of a weak political position when you feel you need to mislead people about the facts.

Read your own source..

In the wake of the referendum the disappointed supporters of the bill conducted a protest campaign under the slogan "Scotland said 'yes'". They claimed that the 40% rule was undemocratic and that the referendum results justified the establishment of the assembly.
In particular, the SNP carried out a survey of the electoral register in the Edinburgh Central constituency. This appeared to show that the register was so out of date that even in an area where major support for a "yes" vote might be expected, achievement of 40% of the electorate was virtually unattainable.
This was because the majority of electors lived in older tenements or newer Council blocks of flats where specific flat numbers were not specified. The work of electoral registration staff to obtain an accurate current register was almost impossible, and the same was true of most of Scotland's inner cities and larger towns.
This, along with the high mobility of population inevitable in inner urban areas, does much to explain the historic low turnout in all Britain's inner cities and towns.

You cant force people to vote when it's not compulsory. So the fact that the 40% rule was in is undemocratic. A vote was held, the Yes vote won that referendum yet we didnt gain a parliament.

[removeduser_487563287433]

You said you were cheated. The fact that campaign existed doesn't change the fact your claim is a load of bollocks.

As are all your claims, really. It's why you're so reluctant to post proper sources when you're making them.

[Sir Pignans]

The law always had the 40% rule I believe. Nothing changed after the vote took place.

[removeduser_487563287433]

The law always had the 40% rule I believe. Nothing changed after the vote took place.

SHUT UP THEY WERE CHEATED FREEDOM FREEDOM FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOM

[Sir Spaghetti]

Is their any document or article (maybe even in this thread) that actually looks at whether or not Scottish Independence would be good for the Uk/Scotland?

I cannot seem to find one.

[removeduser_487563287433]

lol well the existence of such a document would make a referendum slightly pointless.

[Sir Spaghetti]

lol well the existence of such a document would make a referendum slightly pointless.

Good point.

However, I still do not think it would persuade people to change their minds much...

I'm really just trying to find a plan for post-independence Scotland, so how much of the armed forces would they get, their currency, share of the national debt etc etc etc

[Sir Pignans]

I believe there are several. I don't believe there is one definitive document, however, I could be wrong.

[The Great Montrose]

The law always had the 40% rule I believe. Nothing changed after the vote took place.

I know it was in place before but read this..

In the wake of the referendum the disappointed supporters of the bill conducted a protest campaign under the slogan "Scotland said 'yes'". They claimed that the 40% rule was undemocratic and that the referendum results justified the establishment of the assembly.
In particular, the SNP carried out a survey of the electoral register in the Edinburgh Central constituency. This appeared to show that the register was so out of date that even in an area where major support for a "yes" vote might be expected, achievement of 40% of the electorate was virtually unattainable.
This was because the majority of electors lived in older tenements or newer Council blocks of flats where specific flat numbers were not specified. The work of electoral registration staff to obtain an accurate current register was almost impossible, and the same was true of most of Scotland's inner cities and larger towns.
This, along with the high mobility of population inevitable in inner urban areas, does much to explain the historic low turnout in all Britain's inner cities and towns.

The law was put in before the referendum yes but if would have been extremely hard almost impossible to actually meet this requirement..

The main thing is that the majority of those who voted voted for devoloution and that wasnt given.. I can try and have a grown up debate with you but clearly that isnt possible with ferrets

Ferrets you are just being extremely childish now..

[Sir Pignans]

So it was undemocratic that you needed over 40% of the people to vote yes in order to achieve constitutional change?

That makes no sense.

[The Great Montrose]

So it was undemocratic that you needed over 40% of the people to vote yes in order to achieve constitutional change?

That makes no sense.

It does when so so little people vote. Only 60% of the electorate voted but the majority however small voted yes. That means that the majority of those who voted voted yes. But devoloution was not granted. How is that democratic? What I asked you to read showed that the achievement of 40% of the electorate was virtually unattainable.

[Border Patrol]

Sounds like Scots don't really want independence. You haven't told me why you want it yet, by the way.