Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

[Col. Tartleton]

The Kingdom of Scotland ceased to exist as a legal entity in 1707, so there is no Scotland - just the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Strictly speaking the two are separate legal entities.

So regardless, this new Scotland isn't the old "The Kingdom of Scotland" which people are familiar with. It's instead "The Artist Formerly Known As That Northern Bit Of Great Britain With The Islands And Whisky."

What will determine initial Scottish citizenship for example? Legal residence or arbitrary ethnicity?

Breaking up the UK makes way more sense.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

The country formerly known as Scotland now called the Republic of Pictish land.

[Poach]

So regardless, this new Scotland isn't "Scotland". It's "The Artist Formerly Known As That Northern Bit Of Great Britain With The Islands And Whisky."

What will determine initial Scottish citizenship for example? Legal residence or arbitrary ethnicity?

They would probbaly go through a process of deciding that: it might be anyone who is both a resident in Scotland and a citizen of the United Kingdom and anyone who was born here.

Going down some ethnicity route would prompt all sorts of outrage and comparisons.

[Col. Tartleton]

I'm just trying to grasp what is Scotland going to be.

I mean when the southern States left the union (albeit illegally) it was pretty straight forward. You had a number of federated States which changed their names to independent Republics and then coalesced into a Confederation. The States were well defined entities which were bound by the constitution. Thus they basically break their treaty to the USA and leave. Nice and clean.

Likewise historic Scotland is a well defined entity which was bound by the act of union into the UK of Great Britain. So if the objective was to undo the 1707 Union and then reestablish Scotland that would make sense. This process just seems screwier than that.

[Poach]

Scotland already has a devolved Parliament with limited powers and a legally defined territorial limit. If Scotland were to leave the Union, the geogrpahic area governed by that Parliament will constitute the new nation, and that Parliament will be granted all powers currently reserved by the Westminster Parliament.

[Yoda Twin]

I'm just trying to grasp what is Scotland going to be.

I mean when the southern States left the union (albeit illegally) it was pretty straight forward. You had a number of federated States which changed their names to independent Republics and then coalesced into a Confederation. The States were well defined entities which were bound by the constitution. Thus they basically break their treaty to the USA and leave. Nice and clean.

Likewise historic Scotland is a well defined entity which was bound by the act of union into the UK of Great Britain. So if the objective was to undo the 1707 Union and then reestablish Scotland that would make sense. This process just seems screwier than that.

The historic Crown of Scotland ceased to exist after the Union of the Crowns, a fact you were keen to recognize in the other thread on Scottish independence in the Academy. As such, I don't see the issue as to the creation of a new Scottish Crown without any legal connections to the historic crown.

[I WUB PUGS]

What exactly are standing in the way of Scotland becoming a new Norway?

If they had as much oil and the government was ready to use that oil money efficiently. EVERYONE knows that Scotland cannot float without London footing most of the bill at present.

Many things need to change in Scotland for this to be viable, but when/if those things change, it is doubtful that anyone would even bother with independence.

[Makrell]

You're about 30 years late. There really is no struggle in Northern Ireland anymore.

Well not military struggles, but there are political forces and ordinary people wanting a secessin from UK. And if sctoland broke free, they might want to use the opprtuniy to break free themselves

[Watercress]

Well not military struggles, but there are political forces and ordinary people wanting a secessin from UK. And if sctoland broke free, they might want to use the opprtuniy to break free themselves

They've had an 'opportunity' since the creation of the Irish Free State. It's just that the majority are direly opposed.

[Lord Baratheon]

Well not military struggles, but there are political forces and ordinary people wanting a secessin from UK. And if sctoland broke free, they might want to use the opprtuniy to break free themselves

Id love to see true(that means both Britishness and Irishness being respected as part of Irish Identidy) reconciliation in Ireland.I would still hope that our Historical ,Cultural and economical ties with Britain would very much remain.I certainly wouldnt call it 'breaking free'..Anyway the situation in Scotland is somewhat different.Oh, and please dont call campaigns of terror 'Military struggles'.

They've had an 'opportunity' since the creation of the Irish Free State. It's just that the majority are direly opposed.

What a silly understanding of modern Irish History(a history that unfortunately a lot of people believe.)

[Lazzeer]

I'm just trying to grasp what is Scotland going to be.

I mean when the southern States left the union (albeit illegally) it was pretty straight forward. You had a number of federated States which changed their names to independent Republics and then coalesced into a Confederation. The States were well defined entities which were bound by the constitution. Thus they basically break their treaty to the USA and leave. Nice and clean.

Likewise historic Scotland is a well defined entity which was bound by the act of union into the UK of Great Britain. So if the objective was to undo the 1707 Union and then reestablish Scotland that would make sense. This process just seems screwier than that.

The result is the same, only the method is different.

The end result would be an independent Kingdom, sharing the Windsor monarchy, consisting most likely of the areas currently administered by the Scottish parliament.

Of course some of it is up for grabs, as what the referendum really does is allow Holyrood and Westminster to start entering negotiations for Scottish independence, which could take a while.

The key point really though was that Scotlands' leaving doesn't legally affect any of the other constituent nations of the UK, kind of like how Southern Ireland leaving didn't affect the rest of the UK.

[Shaun]

Well north sea oil is the fastest depleting one in the world.

No it's not. Business is booming at the moment, with drilling up and a load of new projects in the pipeline, unable to get started because of a shortage of skills.

[The Alcotroll]

If Scotland achieves independence, then I for one will be pushing for the establishment of the People's Democratic Republic of Lancashire. London is only 50 miles closer to my house than Edinburgh, and I don't want to be ruled by southern, shandy-drinking fairies any more than the Jocks do.

On a more serious note: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I get the impression that Scottish (and Welsh) independence is a pipe-dream given credence only by the democratic principle that he who shouts loudest gets heard most often. The harsh, cold realities of life mean that if anything, the UK, including all its squabbling, disfunctional tribes and clans, will eventually be subsumed into some sort of pan-european colossus.

That could just be the booze talking.

[King Gambrinus]

Devolution max was a decent solution. It's a shame these two care more about their own personal legacy ("I gave Scotland Independence" or "I kept the UK alive" seems more dramatic that "I gave Scotland more political powers" or "I guarenteed more powers stayed in Westminster backbenchers' hands...") than their own electorate.

[Col. Tartleton]

The result is the same, only the method is different.

The end result would be an independent Kingdom, sharing the Windsor monarchy, consisting most likely of the areas currently administered by the Scottish parliament.

Of course some of it is up for grabs, as what the referendum really does is allow Holyrood and Westminster to start entering negotiations for Scottish independence, which could take a while.

The key point really though was that Scotlands' leaving doesn't legally affect any of the other constituent nations of the UK, kind of like how Southern Ireland leaving didn't affect the rest of the UK.

Well southern Ireland didn't effect the rest of the UK because technically the Kingdom of Ireland still exists, albeit having lost much of it's territory.

Oh well, I'm going to drop it, it makes more sense now.

[removeduser_487563287433]

The Kingdom of Ireland does not still exist...

Devolution max was a decent solution. It's a shame these two care more about their own personal legacy ("I gave Scotland Independence" or "I kept the UK alive" seems more dramatic that "I gave Scotland more political powers" or "I guarenteed more powers stayed in Westminster backbenchers' hands...") than their own electorate.

That's a bit silly. The realpolitik is that Salmond wanted a devo-max option because he knew this referendum is going to fail. But he has to push for it, since he has won a majority. Otherwise he will make the SNP cease to seem an independence party.

Meanwhile Cameron has won a huge boon by getting a single question, because it closes the independence debate for decades to come.

[Exarch]

suck it up, UK; your days of terrorising the british isles are over. Now witness the slow death of a thousand cuts of secessionism.
FREE SCOTLAND!!

[Doge Domenico]

I did go to a school where the teacher told us Ian Paisley was the actual Devil so my head is brainwashed.

Anyhow here is the new Union flag.

I agree with Bombadier I think England should vote also as It is clear many do not want Scotland.How sad Scots want to love the Union and the Union does not really want them.Unrequited love chaps wot wot kinda sad like that girl who broke my heart all those years ago.I am sure I saw a poll where English people did not want Scotland as they are all spongers and Neds and heavy drinkers.There words not mine.I also believe many English did not want the North Of Ireland during the troubles as they were more trouble than they were worth at the time.Is this true in the opinion of English people here??Nobody ever asks them do they want people sponging off them..

Why was Wales left out of the Union flag? Shouldn't there be a little dragon there?

[Lazzeer]

That's a bit silly. The realpolitik is that Salmond wanted a devo-max option because he knew this referendum is going to fail. But he has to push for it, since he has won a majority. Otherwise he will make the SNP cease to seem an independence party.

Meanwhile Cameron has won a huge boon by getting a single question, because it closes the independence debate for decades to come.

I remember John Snow was talking to Salmond on Channel 4 News, and Salmond was being very evasive on the idea of how often he thought there should be a referendum.

Of course the SNP are pretty smart, so I'd imagine anything over 40% yes vote would still be a big victory for them as they'd advocate it still show substantial support for constitutional change, and then they'd probably push for more devolved powers.

I think the new Lib Dem policy is pretty smart - reiterating the case for more devolved powers. Because of the referendum agreement the SNP will be pushing solidly for independence, making them look less moderate. The Lib Dems then will try and woo this middle ground of those who want more devolution, but reject independence.

[Col. Tartleton]

Why was Wales left out of the Union flag? Shouldn't there be a little dragon there?

Maybe make a White and Green background on which to overlay St. George's, St. Patrick's, and St. Andrew's crosses. The White background for Wales and England. The Blue background for Scotland. The Green background for Wales and Ireland. Three crosses for three Kings. I don't like the way the St. Patrick and St. Andrew crosses are rendered though. St. Patrick's cross is only half there.