Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

[G-Megas-Doux]

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/sp...c1li011lcn_G0t
The above link shows the National Debt growth against GDP. You can play around with it, the data goes back a long way.
If you also go and look at the IMF reports which are also available online for the years that Gordon Brown was chancellor they did very specificly warn him of the housing boom for several years running in the early part of this century.
What Gordon did in government was to creat the FSA and make the Bank of England Independent of the Government. Both of which had regulative authority over the financial industry. The FSA was declared unfit for purpose by the coalition and replaced with the FCA.At a point when the UK government was running surplus and near finishing paying off its war debts to the USA. (We are the only country that ever paid back the Marshall Plan investments to the USA by the way everyone else had it written off) So there was a great chance to not only run a surplus for an extended period but actually bost the cash reserve of the government at this point. It is here that the Labour government then started increasing the bureaucratic size of government and run a deficit in the years leading up to the crisis. Still this was not yet irreversable or unmanagable. However the purcase at full market value of several banks was unforgivable because the government now has to make real term cuts to get into a surpluss just to pay the interest on the national debt and it has to be a huge surpluss to pay it down. The shares were worth nothing. There should have been legislation stripping the banks from the shareholders due to reckless endangerment of the economy. This would have lowered the major hit in debt that the government would have taken. It also would have backed the banks ability to actually operate, whilst allowing the government to safely readjust to a surplus and keep real people employed in government jobs rather than pay fortunes to shareholders who disapeared into the ether.

[Gatsby]

A lot of internet talk of theories we can go for unilateral secession based on the SNP getting a majority. Its so cute when people think they understand law, especially something so complex as British constitutional law, and international law.

[Pielstick]

Yeah, someone tipped me off to check out some of the Facebook groups where all the 45-ers are hanging out.

They're all grasping at the idea of the SNP wins half of the Scottish seats in next year's election they can declare unilateral independence. Alex Salmond said so. It must be true then!

At least it gives them something new to bang on about instead of the referendum being rigged.

[Azog 150]

Yeah the internet aftermath of this referendum really is something.

Lots of 'Noers' gloating.

Lots of 'Yessers' talking as if its the end of the world, that 'the forces of darkness' have won and trampled their noble quest, that anyone who voted 'No' is 'wrong', with many seemingly hoping Westminster doesn't deliver on its promises so that they can feel validated in voting 'Yes', claim they were 'right' and have another pop in a few years time. I even encountered one feller arguing for an IRA -style armed struggle.

Got to love the internet.

So how is the scene up there in Scotland at the moment?

[G-Megas-Doux]

Isn't that what is known as. Throwing the toys out of the pram?

[Shaun]

It's actually quite worrying that separatists are now considering trying other means of independence, despite the fact it would be against the clear and democratic will of the Scottish people to remain part of the UK. Although the notion that the SNP are going to gain half the Scottish seats in 2015's general election, essentially a 500% increase on last time, is risible.

[G-Megas-Doux]

Whilst that seems unlikely maybe they were thinking of the Scottish National elections.

[Bobz]

Apparently the fire alarm that interrupted the count in Dundee was to allow MI5 agents to fix the vote in favour in no. Clearly they did a fantastic job in the city that had the highest percentage of yes votes.

[UselessPoster]

The english are on the offensive now asking for more powers and not wanting scotland in any part of it. Seems a backfire has started it could be the first spell of a new referendum, could england go independent of scotland ? haha that would be quite hilarious.

Lots of sarcasm obviously but it could happen in the future the english are not happy with scotland getting more powers and they are demanding equal treatment LOL knew it was coming after all england has the biggest population in the UK ;p.

[Azog 150]

I'd like to think that people in England are asking for more powers because they are unhappy with Westminster, not Scotland. However it is clear that UKIP and the Tories are keen to put an English nationalist spin on this very important constitutional issue.

[6th Vigil]

I'd like to think that people in England are asking for more powers because they are unhappy with Westminster, not Scotland. However it is clear that UKIP and the Tories are keen to put an English nationalist spin on this very important constitutional issue.

Unfortunately, I think this is becoming the case. The classic party politics power play which Labour seems to be losing out if they can't avoid the anti-English caricature that is being painted of them.

More importantly, all this fear of division in Scotland is overlooking the growing resentment in England which is all too easily directed at Scotland. I don't know about the rest of you but a lot of people I've talked too have felt insulted by the debates the Scotland no matter how irrational that may be, as I've pointed out to them.

[G-Megas-Doux]

The main result of all the devolution and debates on freedoms and powers has been divisive across the country. It has lead to envy and distrust on all sides. The Scots think the English get a great deal because the government concentrates on investment in very specific regions in the south. The English see the Scots getting more money per head and authority over direct issues that affect them only. The Welsh and the Northern Irish see Scotland demanding powers they don't have and the English insisting on being in consideration, only they know how this is making them feel.

Then you get strangeness like this.
http://www.thecompleteuniversityguid...y-in-scotland/

NI, Welsh and English students paying tuition fees in Scotland but students from the EU (excluding UK) don't. Which is very dubious.

[Gatsby]

I understand the grievances of the English, but frankly this is the not the time. Westminster needs a drastic show of serious intent, they need to seem to be aware of how seriously they are haemorrhaging credibility in Scotland.

I do not think that we are opposed to the English having more power over themselves, but our own 2-year push for devolution is being faltered - when the idea of what English devolution should look like has not yet even been seriously considered, never mind remotely worked-out.

[Col. Tartleton]

Realistically unless the seven kingdoms of England have devolved powers I don't understand why the UK let places like the Scottish Borders and Welsh Marches have a state government.

Westseaxna a Ofer!

[Dante Von Hespburg]

The main result of all the devolution and debates on freedoms and powers has been divisive across the country. It has lead to envy and distrust on all sides. The Scots think the English get a great deal because the government concentrates on investment in very specific regions in the south. The English see the Scots getting more money per head and authority over direct issues that affect them only. The Welsh and the Northern Irish see Scotland demanding powers they don't have and the English insisting on being in consideration, only they know how this is making them feel.

Then you get strangeness like this.
http://www.thecompleteuniversityguid...y-in-scotland/

NI, Welsh and English students paying tuition fees in Scotland but students from the EU (excluding UK) don't. Which is very dubious.

Just to comment on the uni issue- the idea behind that, is that if England wanted, they too could subsidize free uni for all those capable, but unlike Scotland you guys choose to spend your money differently (Which is fair enough- indeed Free vs Tuition fee models both have their pro's and con's- at it's most basic free means that only those most capable are allowed to go, while tuition fees can provide a bigger budget for a uni (By opening up courses to everyone who pay's and lowering entry requirements as they seem to so that in effect their top students get more support, from better lecturers and better funded facilities (More money)- the dross and mickey mouse degrees pay for the serious stuff in essence).

As to the EU issue though, i believe that's something to do with EU legislation effectively being a loop hole. The bright side is that compared to what we'd get from England, we don't have THAT many EU students come top study- also you can cap how many foreign students you have. BUT if our free uni's were open to the rest of the UK, they'd be a flood- just look at the student numbers, and we can't afford that in all honesty. So here as mean as it is, it's very much a case of- If England, Wales, and N.Ireland want free uni- do it yourselves . There's no real reason you can't, it's just your policy makers decide not to. And perhaps that's the bright side if they perceive the pro's of bigger budgets outweighing the cons.

Realistically unless the seven kingdoms of England have devolved powers I don't understand why the UK let places like the Scottish Borders and Welsh Marches have a state government.

Baby steps. Think of Scotland and Wales ( who i believe have less powers than us) as 'States' in an equivalent US system. Devolution is better for all involved, it's just England as a whole considers itself (rightly or wrongly) as a state in being. And unlike Scotland and Wales, the majority of the English seemed to have for a long time not really called for their own Parliament (perhaps though i should say Westminster politicians haven't allowed the option for one or the discussion to take place).

Now though when this discourse is starting to take place, the English in essence have a lot of catching up to do in sorting out how they want to devolve England- many are against splitting it up (rightly or wrongly) the most efficient suggestion is devolving the cities, giving English Cities and their regions greater autonomy within England to act as something like a pseudo-city state (And thus not creating another layer of government which the English seem to be set against).

[caratacus]

The main result of all the devolution and debates on freedoms and powers has been divisive across the country. It has lead to envy and distrust on all sides. The Scots think the English get a great deal because the government concentrates on investment in very specific regions in the south. The English see the Scots getting more money per head and authority over direct issues that affect them only. The Welsh and the Northern Irish see Scotland demanding powers they don't have and the English insisting on being in consideration, only they know how this is making them feel..

Who are these English though! When I talk to folk they have an awful lot of complaints against Westminster but "Oh its so terrible that all the Scottish MPs get to vote on matters that affect us" isn't really one of them. Its Westminster spin to divert attention away from the crux of the matter!! Were the English asked whether Scotland should get its own parliament in the first place, NO. Where we asked about reforming the House of Lords. No. I think that would have been were the disgust would have been, not on how many MPs vote on English matters in the the so called "West Lothian Question".

Truth is those rogues in Westminster are cooking up another major change to our constitution without consultation, to get them out of the fix they got into by this Scottish referendum. Now it is that that people should be angry about because no Devo Max or regional assemblies are going to fundamentally change the failings of our politicians in Westminster, who will work the system to suit their interests, even if that means damaging those of the UK.

Although the NO vote won on Thursday it was no thanks to either of the main parties and we came very close to dividing the Union. It seems to me that giving Devo Max without integrating both parliaments in Scotland and England through a second elected chamber, will ultimately lead to division and Thursday will only be a Pyrrhic victory.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Although the NO vote won on Thursday it was no thanks to either of the main parties and we came very close to dividing the Union. It seems to me that giving Devo Max without integrating both parliaments in Scotland and England through a second elected chamber, will ultimately lead to division and Thursday will only be a Pyrrhic victory.

I can't really be sure about this enough to comment properly. Devolution might actually just create stronger bonds through contentment in a true 'best of all worlds' deal. But i would say this is why i'm for devolution on the City model- by greater autonomy to Cities in Scotland and England, you give the most efficient form of decentralized devolution (Reap the economic and local political benefits), but also it's a local enough devolution to make the centralization process to even think of going 'Full independent' difficult and indeed unwanted/unnecessary.

[G-Megas-Doux]

Who are these English though! When I talk to folk they have an awful lot of complaints against Westminster but "Oh its so terrible that all the Scottish MPs get to vote on matters that affect us" isn't really one of them. Its Westminster spin to divert attention away from the crux of the matter!! Were the English asked whether Scotland should get its own parliament in the first place, NO. Where we asked about reforming the House of Lords. No. I think that would have been were the disgust would have been, not on how many MPs vote on English matters in the the so called "West Lothian Question".

Truth is those rogues in Westminster are cooking up another major change to our constitution without consultation, to get them out of the fix they got into by this Scottish referendum. Now it is that that people should be angry about because no Devo Max or regional assemblies are going to fundamentally change the failings of our politicians in Westminster, who will work the system to suit their interests, even if that means damaging those of the UK.

Although the NO vote won on Thursday it was no thanks to either of the main parties and we came very close to dividing the Union. It seems to me that giving Devo Max without integrating both parliaments in Scotland and England through a second elected chamber, will ultimately lead to division and Thursday will only be a Pyrrhic victory.

Alright Dante pointed out that the "English" don't want to subsidise tuition fees. Go look up the Tuition fees vote and you will find that the Scottish MPs were instrumental in carrying the majority in that vote, specifically the Labour MPs. The Conservative Scottish MP abstained. So there is one example for you.

I personally would like to point out that the English were never consulted in having an English Parliament and were only given the choice by Labour of regional or nothing and once the first regional votes were cast against the idea no further options were given and no further attempts were made. So since then the half way house has existed. I personally would not be bothered on Scottish MPs voting on English matters if there were no devolved Parliaments as all MPs would be voting on everyone's matters anyway. It only bothers me because England which is just as much a country as Scotland gets less control over itself as England.

Ultimately however I have said devolving the powers that Scotland has asked for to Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland would marginalise Westminster to a very large degree and ultimately subsume it into the EU. Sovereignty is already being eroded by the EU, authority is eroded by devolution the only result becomes disintegration of the UK anyway.

[caratacus]

I can't really be sure about this enough to comment properly. Devolution might actually just create stronger bonds through contentment in a true 'best of all worlds' deal. But i would say this is why i'm for devolution on the City model- by greater autonomy to Cities in Scotland and England, you give the most efficient form of decentralized devolution (Reap the economic and local political benefits), but also it's a local enough devolution to make the centralization process to even think of going 'Full independent' difficult and indeed unwanted/unnecessary.

Whatever the powers offered to Scotland (and I doubt they will be substantial) it is going to create strains between the two parliaments if there isn't a democratic bridge between both. The SNP are not going to disappear after this referendum and we will probably see subsequent governments constantly at loggerheads with each other. Its was the SNP in Holyrood that pushed for this referendum and any greater amount of devolved power is never going to satisfy them.

The answer is simple, reform Westminster by scraping the House of Lords. Make it an elected assembly and divide it into four on the basis of the four parts of the Union. The Lower House would function as parliament for England, Wales and Northern Ireland but not Scotland who will have their own. This new Upper house would act as a bridge on the two lower houses and ensure a smoother relationship. Devolution for the English regions could be instigated as part of this reform process.

Do it this way and you would create a true Union of equal nations.But to treat Scotland as some English region in a devolution of powers is just plain insulting, and I'm not scottish

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Whatever the powers offered to Scotland (and I doubt they will be substantial) it is going to create strains between the two parliaments if there isn't a democratic bridge between both. The SNP are not going to disappear after this referendum and we will probably see subsequent governments constantly at loggerheads with each other. Its was the SNP in Holyrood that pushed for this referendum and any greater amount of devolved power is never going to satisfy them.

The answer is simple, reform Westminster by scraping the House of Lords. Make it an elected assembly and divide it into four on the basis of the four parts of the Union. The Lower House would function as parliament for England, Wales and Northern Ireland but not Scotland who will have their own. This new Upper house would act as a bridge on the two lower houses and ensure a smoother relationship. Devolution for the English regions could be instigated as part of this reform process.

Do it this way and you would create a true Union of equal nations.But to treat Scotland as some English region in a devolution of powers is just plain insulting, and I'm not scottish

I do agree in terms of Westminster itself needing to be dragged (kicking and screaming) out of the Stone Age. But more than that though, i think we in the UK as a whole need to look at the economic costs of centralization. It's not been great, while the economy overall is doing well, it's due to London and the South East. I know i've seen you put forward here about the imbalance that needs to be addressed mate. So i'd do a Westminster reform in conjunction/with the Core-Cities devolutionary plans. For local economic powerhouses through the cities, who have the resources for real targeted local investment, to grow the micro/regional economies and begin to balance out the economy overall for the regions (while at the same time, give London the autonomy they've been pushing for, for the past decade or so, and let them soar). I think whatever does happen to Westminster, while important, overall could be much more effective in conjunction with City devolution- which is economically more efficient than centralization, but would avoid the fears of extra levers of bureaucracy and increased separation.

Scotland is something strangely enough, i would like to see as part of this Core City ideal. The SNP have for the past few years, sapped more and more local authority away and into Holyroods hands, in an imitation of Westminster. A devolved Scotland is great...but it's still for us living here a centralized state with all the issues that entails. We ourselves need to take a book from you guys down south with the Core Cities scheme and look at addressing the issues with it.