Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

[caratacus]

I really don't see how the country of Scotland and a region in England really are different. To compare Scotland to the whole of England is the worst way to go about it. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should just be considered regions within the UK, especially when combined they barely go over London in terms of population. A regionalised England would be much better overall. It takes power from London and puts it into areas closer to people homes. It would likely be the best way to put financial backing into the northern regions as a minimal amount of income would be guaranteed if they had a law saying each region gets an equal share of income.

Scotland isn't a region, it is a country, a country with its own legal system, education system and parliament. It is going to be a lot easier to provide Scotland with more devolution than for a regional authority that doesn't presently exist. But this must also necessitate the reduced role of Scottish MPs in Parliament, whether the Labour party wants it all not.

I honestly can't see why some strategy for more powers can't be drawn up for Scotland, Wales and Ireland prior to the next election and separate from process of devolved local English government. In my opinion It must also necessitate some reform of the existing assemblies/parliament in these countries so that they better integrate with Westminster, which means significantly changing Westminster itself.

The Labour government made an absolute mess of creating rival governments to Westminster and we are now seeing the consequences. Just to provide DevoMax to Hollyrood whilst excluding Scottish MPs from Parliament, would further distance Scotland from the rest of the UK and ultimately lead to calls for complete independence. I would scrap the house of Lords, create a second elected chamber and integrate that chamber into all four constituent parts of the UK's governance (which means its mobility)

In effect what you need is a huge shakeup of government in the UK that hasn't been seen for hundreds of years and giving the job to the rotten rot who currently occupied the House....well it just won't happen.....

As for Mr Salmond, he should be more proactive and positive towards suggesting reforms instead of pouring scorn on Westminster, which lets face it, isn't difficult to do.. the man is an idiot.

[Niles Crane]

Yeah, but what will all the Lords and Ladies do? They'll be out of work thanks to you. Huge unemployment in the peerage sector.

[caratacus]

Yeah, but what will all the Lords and Ladies do? They'll be out of work thanks to you. Huge unemployment in the peerage sector.

Why are we paying for an institution which is laden with retired MP's and those who have been given titles through patronage. I could understand if it was all about tradition. But the Lords has been changed to favour those who occupy the Lower House and we still have a unrepresentative chamber which has an influence on the introduction of legislation, its a complete anachronism.

But here we are discussing how we can satisfy the Scot's discontent with the whole system of government by giving them a few more powers, whilst attempting to address the imbalance by replacing local government (and it will be more replacing local government than Westminster) with regional assemblies. Leaving that rotten bunch in Westminster to carry on as before.

[gaunty14]

I don't think Cpt Hastings was being all together serious Caratacus

[caratacus]

I don'tthink Cpt Hastings was being alltogether serious Caratac.us

I know, excuse my lack of humour @CaptainHastings, just having as the Scots would say.. I wee moan If the silent majority who support the Union but don't like the government, made as much noise as the Scottish nationalists, we might get proper genuine change.

The British people should demand a referendum on constitutional change of Parliament, including devolution for Scotland but are unlikely to get it, and THAT is the problem.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...nevitable.html

[Lazzeer]

Kept brief I could almost agree.

The devils are as ever, in the detail.

Good balance though, respect.

Don't worry, we'll get you drinking the Kool-Aid eventually .




On another note there seems to be a growing number of Yes voters who seem unwilling to move past the results of the referendum. Some (including my own MSP) are even proposing some kind of Yes Alliance to fight the next General Election. I understand elements within the Yes camp don't want to let go, but I think enshrining nationalism and identity as the sole dividing line in Scottish politics (ala Northern Ireland) is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

[Condottiere 40K]

The referendum promises made to the Scots present an opportunity for the Tories to contain Labour and possibly emasculate UKIP; Labour may wish to dodge this prospect after that Hail Mary pass.

[6th Vigil]

Speaking as someone who is very pro-EU, the EU involves sharing a substantial amount of sovereignty. The whole point of the EU is that we will continually move to sharing more sovereignty. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that, but then I'm not claiming that the Scottish people alone should be sovereign.

Are you trying to say that the EU members are not independent countries? The UK is a country. Is the EU a sovereign state or a country? there is a difference between taking orders from a sovereign state (UK) and taking "orders" from the EU. (Btw, is the UK taking orders from Brussels? I don´t think so...)

Lazzeer basically answered this more succinctly and effectively than I could but I thought I would highlight that point. One of the main arguments of the Yes campaign was that the all the decisions would be taken in Scotland by the Scottish people which is patently false if you are a member of the EU which requires nations to pool sovereignty. Furthermore it has already been established that EU law(regulations) overrides national law so there is a subordinate relationship in that regard.

This is exacerbated by the fact that eventually an independent Scotland would have had to adopt the euro, especially if they had not got their currency union. So their central bank would have moved from London to Frankfurt and their fiscal policy would then be under oversight of the ECB. Scottish foreign policy would have had a lot more flexibility under the EU because national governments still hold power in that regard but even then it would be forced to follow the majority on issues like Ukraine and ISIS. This is hardly the absolute authority promised to the Scottish people by the SNP.

[Gatsby]

Full sovereign independence is a pipe-dream in the modern world.

[6th Vigil]

I agree entirely but I didn't want to drag the debate into that cauldron.

[Geronimo2006]

Surprising new Scottish Parliament poll.

SNP 49%
Labour 33%
Tories 13%

However apparently it also shows they don't want another referendum. However I don't know if this would be replicated in the Westminster election because since historically Scots have voted Labour there including during the SNP government. It will be interesting to see how no-voting SNP seats go next time including Salmond's seat.

[Poach]

We'll see how it actually is in 2016: the SNP are enjoying a membership and support boost because of the high emotions of those who voted Yes: many of them have never voted before in their lives. We shall see how many remain engaged long-term.

[YukonTrooper]

They'll remain engaged as long as Westminster fails to keep promises. Also, half of Scotland wants independence. Are those people just going to disappear or something? Crawl back into their hobbit holes?

[lawandorder82]

Some say that the outcome of the votes was rigged.

[Pielstick]

Some say that the outcome of the votes was rigged.

Insert obligatory picture of man wearing tin foil hat here.



Meanwhile, the disaster that is Labour under Ed Miliband continues to unfold:

Most of UK media: "So Ed, you were pretty ing useless in this independence referendum, and Gordon had to ride in at the last minute and save your ass. How much longer are we supposed to take you seriously as leader of the Labour party?"

Ed Miliband: "£8 minimum wage!"

[Condottiere 40K]

The moment that the the polls showed fifty one percent were for independence.

[Aymer de Valence]

Some say that the outcome of the votes was rigged.

Yes because they didn't win.

Scotland will forever be known as the only country in the world which said no to independence lol.

There were even a few people in Glasgow celebrating wearing England football shirts - is this how far 'proud' Scotland has sunk!? Pahaha...

[Bobz]

Yes because they didn't win.

Scotland will forever be known as the only country in the world which said no to independence lol.

There were even a few people in Glasgow celebrating wearing England football shirts - is this how far 'proud' Scotland has sunk!? Pahaha...

Quebec disagrees with you.

[6th Vigil]

I've just seen the "We are the 45" facebook page. Nothing sadder than sore losers.

[Lazzeer]

Lazzeer basically answered this more succinctly and effectively than I could but I thought I would highlight that point. One of the main arguments of the Yes campaign was that the all the decisions would be taken in Scotland by the Scottish people which is patently false if you are a member of the EU which requires nations to pool sovereignty. Furthermore it has already been established that EU law(regulations) overrides national law so there is a subordinate relationship in that regard.

This is exacerbated by the fact that eventually an independent Scotland would have had to adopt the euro, especially if they had not got their currency union. So their central bank would have moved from London to Frankfurt and their fiscal policy would then be under oversight of the ECB. Scottish foreign policy would have had a lot more flexibility under the EU because national governments still hold power in that regard but even then it would be forced to follow the majority on issues like Ukraine and ISIS. This is hardly the absolute authority promised to the Scottish people by the SNP.

Exactly - we were being offered indy-lite, which tbh would actually leave us with less levers than a system of devo-max. As you rightly point out, the problem is that as soon as it's accepted that all sovereignty is relative, and that in essence independence means little in the modern world, then we must ask ourselves the question of why independence is necessary, as opposed to some other constitutional arrangement.

However apparently it also shows they don't want another referendum. However I don't know if this would be replicated in the Westminster election because since historically Scots have voted Labour there including during the SNP government. It will be interesting to see how no-voting SNP seats go next time including Salmond's seat.

The SNP are no doubt doing well. However eventually they'll have to return to the business of governing. When they do they'll have to decide an ideological direction, and whichever direction they choose they'll lose some of their flock.