Jacobites
Jacobites
When have you stopped being called nationalists?
"If I have done any noble action, that is a sufficient memorial; if I have done nothing noble, all the statues in the world will not preserve my memory."
- Agesilaus II of Sparta
"Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy."
- Isaac Newton
Just another 5% needed.
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I'd have thought that anyone who is advocating for the separation of a piece of territory is by definition a separatist. Separatism and nationalism are different but usually linked concepts in my mind. You can be one without the other, or both at the same time.
In other, hilarious, news - Russian electoral institutions have criticized the referendum. In a spectacular case of the pot calling the kettle black, the Russian NGO "Civil Control" has accused Westminster of having "resorted to every violation imaginable" in conducting the referendum and counting the votes. They've then quite bravely failed to mention what any of those violations were.
There is also a statement by Igor Morozov, allegedly a 'member' (quote bracketed for weasely vagueness) of the Federation Committee for Foreign Affairs'. He had this to say:
"We can see that, with the exception of Glasgow, those supporting independence failed to register a majority. I think that Westminster propaganda played a great part in that. I suppose it is down to information put out in recent weeks, from the party leaders, [that had impact on the vote], thanks to that the Scots arrived at the result they have,"
Now to me, that sounds like a fairly neutral statement that perhaps someone is misquoting or taking out of context. The fairly petty reference to propaganda notwithstanding (men in glass houses), he's just described how legitimate referendums work. That said, the Civil Control bloke up there has been verified by Reuters, while Igor is thus far only cropping up in, shall we say, 'less reputable' media. So whether that's a legit statement is something I wouldn't want to reserve judgement on.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...0HE26O20140919
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140919/1930...-Scots-on.html
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While I despise the Putin regime, media bias was definitely a factor. It was not reflective of the yes-no balance. Only one newspaper in Scotland supported yes. The involvement of foreign governments in pushing a no vote was pretty unprecedented.
I am very concerned as a moderate Irish nationalist that foreign governments may pull a similar trick in a future NI referendum on a United Ireland (which I accept won't happen anyway until the demographics change - though I contend NI is the UK's Crimea).
Last edited by Geronimo2006; September 19, 2014 at 03:58 PM.
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It's a Scottish issue - but that's not how it was treated by Obama, Van Rompuy Rajoy and Hollande! But those of us (including Irish/Flemish/Catalan/Basque separatists) who were in sympathy were expected to stay quiet! I respect the outcome but hold the behaviour of the EU and US in contempt.
And speaking of bitter, it goes both ways.
But I accept the outcome. Of course people can change their minds.
Last edited by Geronimo2006; September 19, 2014 at 04:04 PM.
Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".
Core i7 2600 @ 3.4ghz - NVIDIA GTX950 2GB
Colonialism 1600 AD blog
Again though most media outlets are private and so are very much inherent in a bias either way, even if it's in terms of reporting certain stories and not others (It doesn't even have to be the style and tone of the report). It's an issue with all media. So it doesn't have to be reflective alas as it's up to the owners and subsidizers of said media as to what and how they portray themselves- Take a look at the Sun, Mirror, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Scotsman etc all will have their slant.
I do hear what you mean about foreign leaders jumping on the band wagon, but again an Independence vote here has consequences for them- not least of all that we'd probably be looking to join their international bodies (NATO, EU etc) and so will have an affect.
At the end of the day though, i think we potentially have got something really exciting from this in terms of UK wide reforms (Now whether Westminster will deliver is a different matter- they damn well better though due to the promises made and indeed the devolutionary advocates arranged in support of reform).
I am concerned and much saddened by the resignation of Salmond though, surprisingly more so than i'd ever have thought. His position and politics i didn't agree with. But as a person he did what he truly thought was best, and did put his heart and soul into it... and didn't actually 'lose' - he forced Westminster and the UK into the devolution situation we are now. It's a shame he's not going to be the one to keep Westminster honest, as he'd be very good in that role, especially as said earlier, in conjunction with the Core Cities and co- they could link up their devolutionary pressure into a truly national platform.
The Orange Order and Cameron- two massive no no's
It's interesting the terminology that's been used, i think the UK seems to have an aversion to labeling nationalists as nationalists due to perhaps the cultural negative connotations- which is silly, and/or separatist sounded particularly scary. Conjuring up images of the Irish troubles, Chechnya and other 'bad people'
Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; September 19, 2014 at 04:25 PM.
So first Glasgow goes Yes, now seems like there's clashes between Unionists and nationalists.
Glasgow, plz stap.
On the issue of Salmond's resignation, this will likely have massive repercussions in Scottish politics. The SNP was formed by a merger between a left-wing Scottish nationalist party - NPS - and a right-wing one - the Scottish Party (I'm aware it's slightly more complicated than that). The SNP as a result is a big tent party - containing nationalists from all over the political spectrum. The party remained united - and grew massively - under Salmond due to his centrist politics. As a result he played a very special role in the party. The question will be what will happen when Sturgeon - his likely successor (like 99% certainty) and a member of the SNP left - takes over. There were massive rifts in the party from 2000 and 2004 between the SNP left and the SNP right without Salmond. Will these rifts return? And if they do, will a disunited party really be able to maintain its electoral gains?
As far as I can tell, your entire enterprise is little more than a solitary man with a messy apartment which may or may not contain a chicken.
It's all fun and games until people start getting eaten
Politics is the art of compromise, unless you can bring your party to accord you cannot be leader and if no one can do so then there is no party. Since Salmond is not retiring from politics it seems obvious that he will still have support within his party in some way and as such have enough influence to steady the boat to support whoever gets the role. It is not like he has been hounded from office merely that he has no other ambition then the one he was denied so he wishes someone else to steer the new course.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
What I find pretty funny is that many of the people complaining about how Scotland only voted against independence due to the "media bias" were also big supporters of the independence and direct democracy in general.
Even *if* media bias was the one reason or one of the main reasons for why independence didn't happen, this would be the perfect example to show just how flawed direct democracy in general is: propaganda is even more of an issue than during elections in a representative democracy.
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Is selders American?
How so? I've read numerous accounts of support from separatist movements across Europe. The BBC itself ran articles on the sympathies of these movements towards Scottish Independence:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25717161
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-9667478.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-29272728
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...n_5842566.html
http://www.ibtimes.com/scottish-inde...europe-1689523
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-reacted.html
And that is just a few from a cursory google search.
And why shouldn't foreign leaders give their preference on the matter? You'd prefer they say how wonderful they'd find an independent Scotland? How useful an independent Scotland would be to them on the world stage? That they need a weakened and internal looking UK like a hole in the head? Besides Obama said he respected the Scottish right to vote:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/16/po...scotland-vote/
Furthermore the EU comments were necessary as they were central issues of the debate which required clarification especially as a large amount of Yes voters were seemingly keen Europeans, as contradictory and puzzling as this may be to me."We obviously have a deep interest in making sure that one of the closest allies that we will ever have remains strong, robust, united, and an effective partner," Obama said then. "But ultimately these are decisions that are to be made by the folks there."
Indeed, I'm still waiting for when the Republic of Ireland decides to rejoin the United Kingdom.But I accept the outcome. Of course people can change their minds.
But seriously, you're right and that is why we should take this opportunity to reform so that the people who are disillusioned with the current politics can regain trust in their leaders. This shouldn't be about nationalism but effective and efficient governance. So lay that chip down my friend, it's a heavy burden.
I always thought that in the event of a No vote Salmond would either become a bitter man or a broken man and I'm sad to say it was the latter. Say what you want about him but he was charismatic and passionate about Scotland and I can only imagine the disappointment he must feel right now with his life's goal, or at least 30 years of his life, having been defeated. I suspect that it is his own party forcing him out although I wouldn't rule out a broken heart as motivation enough.
Last edited by 6th Vigil; September 19, 2014 at 05:11 PM.
"If I have done any noble action, that is a sufficient memorial; if I have done nothing noble, all the statues in the world will not preserve my memory."
- Agesilaus II of Sparta
"Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy."
- Isaac Newton
Loyalist mobs beating people up in Glasgow tonight. BBC reporting they charged at crowds. I fully accept they are not representative of the vast majority of no voters. Even so it is scarily similar to something out of Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Extremists are exploiting the situation. One said "Glasgow will burn for voting yes".
Check out the Himmler clone.
Nazi salutes.
Last edited by Geronimo2006; September 19, 2014 at 05:14 PM.
Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".
Core i7 2600 @ 3.4ghz - NVIDIA GTX950 2GB
Colonialism 1600 AD blog
Very well put here. I'm not sure what will happen, but it's what i'm worried about, current a disunited and weak leading party is NOT what Scotland needs to make sure that Westminster delivers on the promised UK wide devolution. It's a real shame that Salmond felt he had to/was pushed out here, as actually looking at the results he made it damn close and indeed forces the No camp into the panic that made them pull out the devolution cards in the first place for certain.
Also yeah dat Glasgow. I blame freshers
Indeed he was,I just wish he'd see that actually he's done far far better than any other Scottish politician and has a right to feel proud of his achievements here again as i said, the man delivered us concrete promises of devolution. I really do want him to be part of the process over which Scotland gets it. It's politicians like him who i feel have the necessary presence and power to make Westminster listen, and quite frankly i don't have any faith in Strugeon to do his job (assuming she's a candidate of course).
Well as you said mate i would point out that this is just Glasgow. And also...that this is Glasgow...
Cultural Capital of Scotland... how do you feel now EU? Huh?
But it is genuinely disgusting behavior being displayed, it's rather typical though of what i think many expected to happen on hearing that Glasgow was such a close vote...once everyone got round to celebrating and drinking, idiots like this were bound to start some pathetic attack.
And what for!? I know earlier there was both 'Yes' and 'No' Voters scuffling...but now...what the actual hell? Lets riot in a city because we've won!? Great to see we're using that grey matter...
Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; September 19, 2014 at 05:17 PM.
It is sad that this is going on. No reports yet of anything happening elsewhere in Scotland.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Why? Cameron surely as hell wouldn't have resigned he stated as much.
Salmond got a damn close vote and got Scotland concrete promises on devolution. He should be presiding over the coming negotiations and applying pressure. He didn't 'lose', and i was a damn unionist saying that. Westminster were forced to make devolution and actual thing, in the process changing the UK as we know it in the near future. It's actually quite momentous as you've probably been reading here mate. The UK as a whole is getting the restructuring potentially that is so very badly needs, and this is due to Salmond really. There's no need for him to resign.
If of course it's his personal feelings, then i sympathise and understand, but i personally would not have asked for his resignation over the issue, and was quite prepared to see him continue in his role. There are few other politicians in Scotland who are as charismatic and as powerful as he is. We needed that to keep Westminster from trying to weedle out (Though it'll be difficult now with the Cities in England too...but hey the Tories clearly are feeling politically suicidal enough to mess it up and renege...they put bloody William Hauge in charge of reforms...the man who publicly spoke out against them yesterday...)
So in the news today...
- 60,000 (you read that right) upset Yes voters signed a petition calling the referendum rigged and demanding a re-vote. Best of luck, lol.
- Rival crowds have skirmished in Glasgow. It's going to be a long weekend for the police.
- The Yes Scotland campaign have released their official response to the result:
I would just like to tell our 'Yes' posters not to lose heart. Changes, steps in the right direction are coming. And remember, the dream will NEVER die. If Westminster fails to deliver, if they fall short, if the status quo ceases to be to Scotland's advantage, you CAN always choose to leave.
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