Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

[Gaelstrix]

Monty, do you think you could do better than a Wikkipedia article? There's nothing really there that stands out as 'Scottish Culture' as distinct nationally- just little regional quirks such as could be found in any other part of the UK. Nobody claims 'Lancashire' culture or 'Devon' culture, and your paltry handful of examples are as hackneyed and commonplace as could be. Really, is Whiskey, Golf and Robbie Burns the best you can do to justify impending nationhood?

I'm sure Lancashire does have it's own unique cultural aspects, (don't they have a banter-feud with Yorkshire? Or is that just one Yorkshireman I know? ) But trying to deny that Scotland doesn't have a distinct national culture is quite laughable, ever since the Romans ground to a halt there has been that division in Britain. Of course with the union of Great Britain, Scotland, along with England, Wales and Ireland poured their cultures into the "British culture" pot and the national divide is much less strong than in say 1500. It's less of a divide than France/Spain but far stronger than Lancashire/Yorkshire...
The education is completely different, the laws are different, the money's different, the traditional heritage is different, the language is different: Standard English accent, remaining Lallans influence not to mention Gaidhlig. Different flag and often sports teams. What more makes a nation? The UK is a country of countries and a nation of nations. The differences make the country richer I always thought but even more recently I think people are getting really bitter at each other - Scots acting like they are being oppressed because of their smaller vote and English acting like Scotland is a weight dragging them down or a moaning wife.

I haven't decided yet which way I'll vote, leaning on voting to keep the union as confidence in the SNP leadership seems to be dropping; while Scotland could do fine or better alone, poor leadership would ruin us.
Anyway, my point is that, if it's your objective to encourage unionism, don't belittle Scottish culture, it turns people away.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I'm sure Lancashire does have it's own unique cultural aspects, (don't they have a banter-feud with Yorkshire? Or is that just one Yorkshireman I know? ) But trying to deny that Scotland doesn't have a distinct national culture is quite laughable, ever since the Romans ground to a halt there has been that division in Britain. Of course with the union of Great Britain, Scotland, along with England, Wales and Ireland poured their cultures into the "British culture" pot and the national divide is much less strong than in say 1500. It's less of a divide than France/Spain but far stronger than Lancashire/Yorkshire...
The education is completely different, the laws are different, the money's different, the traditional heritage is different, the language is different: Standard English accent, remaining Lallans influence not to mention Gaidhlig. Different flag and often sports teams. What more makes a nation? The UK is a country of countries and a nation of nations. The differences make the country richer I always thought but even more recently I think people are getting really bitter at each other - Scots acting like they are being oppressed because of their smaller vote and English acting like Scotland is a weight dragging them down or a moaning wife.

I haven't decided yet which way I'll vote, leaning on voting to keep the union as confidence in the SNP leadership seems to be dropping; while Scotland could do fine or better alone, poor leadership would ruin us.
Anyway, my point is that, if it's your objective to encourage unionism, don't belittle Scottish culture, it turns people away.

This is an interesting post my friend. Indeed while their is definitely some differences between stereotypical Scottish and English culture (though i don't think anyone has said otherwise in this thread), i think the point we're trying to make, is that Scotland too is divided by it's regional cultures and heritages, which are just as strong as though down South.

It also is a very good point though that you made about the levels of bitterness that have seem to appeared in the campaign, from indeed minorities on both sides. But i would argue this has less to do with tensions running high about the referendum, and more that the talks have highlighted some of the issues the Union needs to look at somehow addressing in the next few years, for instance, i believe the minority in England who disparage the Scots, may be something to do with at the core, they feel under-represented in the UK, the West-Lothian question will have to be resolved somehow, either by an English parliament, or as some have considered here- greater devolution to all local government bodies. Some Scots on the other hand crying about 'English oppression' (again a minority) are basically over-dramatizing the campaign to try and stir up an emotional response from us (As that's probably now the last card they have to play in trying to get a win), but behind this i believe their are issues of contention in terms of Scotland wanting greater devolution (the regions of Scotland want this too, which is something the SNP in particular seem to be against), and indeed worried about what they perceive as an 'English Dominated' parliament. An issues again quite easily resolved by giving England its own body of representation or indeed again, the devolution of greater powers to local councils.

[Copperknickers II]

If the Yes vote wins the one thing I will look forward to is the air show the Russian Air Force will put on over Edinburgh to celebrate the outcome. It'll give me something to watch inbetween checking house prices in England.

The Russians? I see, so that is why No is polling so high: a proportion of our population still thinks that the Cold War is on.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

The Russians? I see, so that is why No is polling so high: a proportion of our population still thinks that the Cold War is on.

You do realize that they frequently fly into the UK's air space in the East and North coasts of Scotland my friend? I've seen it myself. It's party of Russia's reminding everyone they can politics, like their fleet maneuvers of late.

They send over bombers who then are intercepted by scrambled RAF fighters, they then are escorted back out of British air-space and head home. It's a very standard game in international powers who take an aggressive stance. Power A wants to display to everyone that they can get you if they like, Power B then counter-displays with showing Power A that we'll be able to shoot down any of their attempts, and thus the status quo is maintained, as well as reaction and capabilities tested by both sides.

An Independent Scotland...well... with all of 2 Euro-fighters actually in operation (taking into account training, maintenance, storage etc), would probably get laughed at by Russia in this case.

Though i would say this isn't a reason in itself to vote for Independence of course. But it is a small geopolitical issue.

Some sources to back up my points my friend:

The revelation comes as the Sunday Express reveals that British aircraft are now being scrambled more than once a month to turn back long-range Russian bombers.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/328...sian-deterrent

The Russian planes, the world's biggest combat aircraft that are capable of carrying nuclear or conventional weapons, were intercepted by two Tornados near Stornoway in the Western Isles.RAF crews have now been scrambled 20 times in the past year to intercept Russian aircraft over British airspace, the Ministry of Defence revealed last night.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/raf-cat...space-1-796434

Analysts said it was part of a growing tendency for the Kremlin to flex its military muscles in the post-Cold War era. The Russian 'Bear' has been testing Western response times to its increasingly aggressive incursions.In this instance, on March 10, radar picked up two of the Tu160 Blackjack bombers flying at high speed towards the Outer Hebrides.
Nicknamed the White Swan by its Russian pilots, the Tu160 is capable of travelling at 1,380mph and can carry up to 88,000lbs of ordnance including either cruise or short-range nuclear missiles.
Two RAF Tornado F3 fighters from 111 Squadron were immediately scrambled from RAF Leuchars in Fife.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-airspace.html

As you can see, its quite a security issue, even it they won't actually do anything hostile. It's a violation of a sovereign states airspace, and a test of military capabilities (though more in the realms of seeing if their better than than the Defense forces in terms of being able to get away with more).

It's why China's a laughing stock at the moment In a different yet relevant case. They declared a new ridiculous military air zone (Aggressively trying to push for a resolution to the Islands dispute), which the US promptly and intentionally violated with Bombers... the Chinese then failed to back up their rhetoric and were proven to be hollow when they failed to scramble even a single fighter to intercept. Thus the US highlighted A) The poor state of their Air Force impacting upon their prestige and reputation internationally, and B) proved them to be empty in rhetoric.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

This is an interesting post my friend. Indeed while their is definitely some differences between stereotypical Scottish and English culture (though i don't think anyone has said otherwise in this thread), i think the point we're trying to make, is that Scotland too is divided by it's regional cultures and heritages, which are just as strong as though down South.

It also is a very good point though that you made about the levels of bitterness that have seem to appeared in the campaign, from indeed minorities on both sides. But i would argue this has less to do with tensions running high about the referendum, and more that the talks have highlighted some of the issues the Union needs to look at somehow addressing in the next few years, for instance, i believe the minority in England who disparage the Scots, may be something to do with at the core, they feel under-represented in the UK, the West-Lothian question will have to be resolved somehow, either by an English parliament, or as some have considered here- greater devolution to all local government bodies. Some Scots on the other hand crying about 'English oppression' (again a minority) are basically over-dramatizing the campaign to try and stir up an emotional response from us (As that's probably now the last card they have to play in trying to get a win), but behind this i believe their are issues of contention in terms of Scotland wanting greater devolution (the regions of Scotland want this too, which is something the SNP in particular seem to be against), and indeed worried about what they perceive as an 'English Dominated' parliament. An issues again quite easily resolved by giving England its own body of representation or indeed again, the devolution of greater powers to local councils.

Hit the nail on the head there.

I feel England could do with greater devolution too, when I'm at home in the Pennines many people say similar things to the Scots about the Westminster government, that it's too southern focused, that it doesn't care for the local/regional economy, and also, with much of the North being Labour strongholds; that we didn't vote for the current government (which I feel is a stupid complaint; the Tories and Lib dems had the majority of the vote, therefore are entitled to form a government). Much of these complaints could be solved with either greater devolution (although I feel an 'English Parliament' would be too strong economically and really only damage the Union more); preferably at a regional level (i.e. a North West Assembly, a West Midlands Assembly).

The UK does need reform, however it would be a painful process, and would have many vested interests to overcome.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Hit the nail on the head there.

I feel England could do with greater devolution too, when I'm at home in the Pennines many people say similar things to the Scots about the Westminster government, that it's too southern focused, that it doesn't care for the local/regional economy, and also, with much of the North being Labour strongholds; that we didn't vote for the current government (which I feel is a stupid complaint; the Tories and Lib dems had the majority of the vote, therefore are entitled to form a government). Much of these complaints could be solved with either greater devolution (although I feel an 'English Parliament' would be too strong economically and really only damage the Union more); preferably at a regional level (i.e. a North West Assembly, a West Midlands Assembly).

The UK does need reform, however it would be a painful process, and would have many vested interests to overcome.

A very good post here. It's interesting how in some ways the English aspect of devolution is largely forgotten about. I think your right that an English parliament in itself perhaps would not be the best answer here, as indeed it wouldn't actually solve any of the UK's larger disputes such as Wales and Scotland feeling under-represented. But i liked the regional assemblies idea. It was always interesting that when Labour tried something akin to that, they were rejected out of hand almost. Would be interesting though with whats been happening in the past couple of years to see if that's changed at all. I suspect it will have.

[Azog 150]

I don't think the case for Devolved Regional Assemblies was put forward very well back in 2004, and if you look at the plans for the assemblies you will see their proposed powers were very vague and pretty much just that of a jumped up local council. A common argument again the Regional Assembly during the North East referendum was that it would simply add another layer of politicians and public servants and hence increased taxes, and yet the Assemblies powers would not have really extended that far.

Also some of the proposed boundary re-divisions were questionable. Looking at the plans for a North West Assembly (referendum never happened after the overwhelming rejection in the North East) their plans to merge the Sefton Authority of Merseyside with that of West Lancashire just don't really seem to add up, with significant portions of the Liverpool urban conurbation being contained within the Sefton authority (areas such as Bootle, Seaforth, Waterloo and Netherton that I would consider Liverpool- although some other Scousers might consider otherwise!).

Long story short, I don't think a very good case was made and, as you say in light of the successes of devolution in the other parts of the UK the outcome might very well be different should the Devolution debate take a hold in Britain after the Scottish referendum.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

I don't think the case for Devolved Regional Assemblies was put forward very well back in 2004, and if you look at the plans for the assemblies you will see their proposed powers were very vague and pretty much just that of a jumped up local council. A common argument again the Regional Assembly during the North East referendum was that it would simply add another layer of politicians and public servants and hence increased taxes, and yet the Assemblies powers would not have really extended that far.

Also some of the proposed boundary re-divisions were questionable. Looking at the plans for a North West Assembly (referendum never happened after the overwhelming rejection in the North East) their plans to merge the Sefton Authority of Merseyside with that of West Lancashire just don't really seem to add up, with significant portions of the Liverpool urban conurbation being contained within the Sefton authority (areas such as Bootle, Seaforth, Waterloo and Netherton that I would consider Liverpool although some other Scousers might consider otherwise!).

Long story short, I don't think a very good case was made and, as you say in light of the successes of devolution in the other parts of the UK the outcome might very well be different should the Devolution debate take a hold in Britain after the Scottish referendum.

Indeed, the Devolved Regional Assemblies were poorly designed and proposed. I feel a much stronger and better case could be made for them, especially since devolution in Scotland, Wales and NI has proved successful.

My only concern would be that since the UK has no experience with such a near-federalised system that politics, news, and national discourse could become fractured; I already feel that I know next to nothing about Scottish or Northern Irish (but not Wales, nothing happens in Wales) politics or news; despite reading several national newspapers during the day. I only ever pick up the 'big' stories.

[Poach]

The Russians? I see, so that is why No is polling so high: a proportion of our population still thinks that the Cold War is on.

It makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside when someone posts something that is both openly smug and embarrassingly wrong, in response to a joke, no less. For shame. My only regret is Dante beating me to knocking you down those pegs.

Russia regularly flies planes into our airspace, as has been clearly demonstrated. I don't know what'll be more embarrassing: Russian Air Force planes flying through our airspace or Royal Air Force planes being the ones that keep us safe.

In better news today, Scottish pupils are 0.8% better than English pupils at maths, 1.2% better at reading and 0.06% worse at science. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25198792)

I look forward to the Yes campaign trying to make something of it.

[Shaun]

I think those figures are well within the normal variation we'd expect. Be a bit shameful of the Yes campaign to try to capitalise on it. Certainly would do the No campaign a lot of damage were the figures reversed and they tried to capitalise on it.

[Lazzeer]

The biggest problem with faced in attempting to implement devolution in English regions is exactly how you define the region. The North East referendum was quite decisively defeated, mostly because there isn't a consistent "North East" identity. We talk about how there are various identities within Scotland, but Scots on the whole seem to primarily identify as Scottish. When attempting to implement devolution in England they could always forced it upon the various regions, as was done in Spain, but unpopular devolution settlements aren't really destined to last.

For English devolution to work it'd probably have to be done on some kind of historic county level (where there's a sense of collective identity), or done on England as a whole, which wouldn't really yield results much different to the current setup.

My only concern would be that since the UK has no experience with such a near-federalised system that politics, news, and national discourse could become fractured; I already feel that I know next to nothing about Scottish or Northern Irish (but not Wales, nothing happens in Wales) politics or news; despite reading several national newspapers during the day. I only ever pick up the 'big' stories.

Tbh nothing's really going on except for the referendum and the Glasgow tragedy. The only things BBC Scotland seems to cover, that other places don't get, seem to be rather tedious and parochial stories.

[Rootsie]

Indeed, many parts of England have similar problems to Scotland, for similar reasons. I don't really see how that's relevant though.

The point is that every country in the world has problems with deprivation in inner-city areas. This isn't a problem unique to Scotland nor is it something you can blame exclusively on the UK.

To be honest, a lot of the post-industrial areas are worse off in many ways than they were when the industry still existed back before Thatcher and her ilk.

This is something I've never understood about the independence movment; its total obsession with the myth that Scottish heavy industry declined solely because of Thatcher's Government. The number of Scottish coal mines peaked in 1910 and declined from there, with the majority shutting between 1947-1960. The same is true of shipbuilding, most of the yards had shut before 1977 and many of those left were shut during the short period of nationalisation under British Shipbuilders.

As convenient as it is to pretend that Thatcher and the evil English Tories hated Scotland and the working-class, it just isn't true.

http://www.sorbie.net/lanarkshire_mining_industry.htm
http://www.nmrs.org.uk/mines/coal/maps/scotland2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Shipbuilders

Of course the worst was just after the factories closed, and its been gradually improving since then, but certainly devolution has coincided with an acceleration of improvement in many areas. The decrease in violence in recent years has been greater than almost anywhere else in the world.

Can you source that please?

The UK is far more violent than anywhere else in Western Europe, poverty and drug problems are worse than anywhere west of the former iron curtain. Of course, its extremely localised and limited to certain people at certain times, and as a young mixed race male who has lived in London and Glasgow I'm far more likely to have experienced these things than any other demographic in the UK, but they do exist, and you can't just claim that because most people don't have these problems, they therefore don't exist.

Can you source that also please? I'm not saying that these problems don't exist, I'm saying that they exist everywhere and therefore to say that these problems stem from the being part of the UK is untrue.

@Ferrets: it is not a lie that parts of Glasgow have/had a lower life expectancy than Baghdad. Please read what I write and not what you wanted me to write: I didn't say Glasgow, I said parts of Glasgow. And furthermore, don't use some ridiculous internet answer website as a source when you're 'debunking a lie'. You're the only one here lying.

That isn't for Baghdad, that is for the whole of Iraq. In Scotland life expectancy is 76 for men and 80 for women.

The point being, that the case for Skye, or any subdivision of Scotland, becoming independent, is laughable, because nations are defined entities with borders and identifying characteristics, and histories. Nowhere in Scotland has a history of being a distinct independent state, except perhaps the West Coast at the time of Dal Riada, which would split Glasgow in half and incorporate part of Northern Ireland (and besides, that was the direct ancestor of the Kingdom of Scotland).

I really don't know how people can continue on with this ridiculous argument that accuses us of having drawn an arbitrary line in between the Solway firth and the river Tweed, as if this is something that the SNP did 50 years ago as a stunt.

Scotland has been distinct from England since the time of the Roman Empire, if not before, when Caledonia was separated off from the rest of Britannia by Hadrian's wall. We haven't just invented it from thin air. Yes, we have reaped considerable benefit from the Union, but we think it is now time to go our separate ways, back to the way it always was before the concept of 'Britishness' even existed. Why would we cut Scotland up into pieces when its a country with a history longer than almost any other's in Europe?

Until I joined the army, I believed in a single Scottish culture. When I got to my regiment, I joined a platoon of 30-odd blokes who came from right across Scotland, plus 2 Englishmen, a Canadian and a Samoan.

On one of my first weekends off I went home for a blackening. When I told the other lads this I was amazed to discover that most of them had never heard of blackening, only one of them - also from the North East of Scotland - knew what a blackening was. It turned out that all of the things I had assumed to be Scottish culture - blackening, butteries, playing rugby - were actually specific to the North East of Scotland, while things that other guys considered to be Scottish culture - like shinty or the National MOD - I'd literally never heard of.

I think that Scotland is broadly divided into 5 cultural areas; The Scottish Borders, The Central Belt, The North East, The Gaelic Highlands, The Northern Isles. Although we do share some things like ceilidhs and hogmanay, there is actually a lot of variation between our regions.

We do have a long history but - as historians like A. D. M. Barrell, C. Kiddand and J. Wormald have pointed out - although The Kingdom of Scotland existed, it bore very little resemblance to what we now consider Scotland, nor did the people who lived there predominantly consider themselves 'Scots'. 'Scottish' as an identity only came about during the Wars of Independence as a tool to unite the people against the English.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I don't think the case for Devolved Regional Assemblies was put forward very well back in 2004, and if you look at the plans for the assemblies you will see their proposed powers were very vague and pretty much just that of a jumped up local council. A common argument again the Regional Assembly during the North East referendum was that it would simply add another layer of politicians and public servants and hence increased taxes, and yet the Assemblies powers would not have really extended that far.

Also some of the proposed boundary re-divisions were questionable. Looking at the plans for a North West Assembly (referendum never happened after the overwhelming rejection in the North East) their plans to merge the Sefton Authority of Merseyside with that of West Lancashire just don't really seem to add up, with significant portions of the Liverpool urban conurbation being contained within the Sefton authority (areas such as Bootle, Seaforth, Waterloo and Netherton that I would consider Liverpool- although some other Scousers might consider otherwise!).

Long story short, I don't think a very good case was made and, as you say in light of the successes of devolution in the other parts of the UK the outcome might very well be different should the Devolution debate take a hold in Britain after the Scottish referendum.

I would agree with the poor implementation of the regional assemblies, looking at some of the powers and points of them, and how these were sold. No wonder they turned people off. Its almost as if Labour didn't actually want devolution... But i seriously hope the issue is raised again, and given proper development. As i believe now that people would actually quite like the Regional parliamentary ideas. What they need to do though is take away the aspects of relevant government away from Westminster and invest it in these local parliaments. Otherwise as you said, the whole idea is pointless.

Indeed, the Devolved Regional Assemblies were poorly designed and proposed. I feel a much stronger and better case could be made for them, especially since devolution in Scotland, Wales and NI has proved successful.

My only concern would be that since the UK has no experience with such a near-federalised system that politics, news, and national discourse could become fractured; I already feel that I know next to nothing about Scottish or Northern Irish (but not Wales, nothing happens in Wales) politics or news; despite reading several national newspapers during the day. I only ever pick up the 'big' stories.

The point about the lack of feeling informed is very interesting, and one i would agree with. I think their does need to be better coverage of issues around the country, if anything because what happens in one place does affect us in some way. I would also say it might go some way to dispelling the more local looking inward attitudes that I've noted some people have. In an increasingly globalized world, we really can't afford to do the whole Isolationist thing.

The biggest problem with faced in attempting to implement devolution in English regions is exactly how you define the region. The North East referendum was quite decisively defeated, mostly because there isn't a consistent "North East" identity. We talk about how there are various identities within Scotland, but Scots on the whole seem to primarily identify as Scottish. When attempting to implement devolution in England they could always forced it upon the various regions, as was done in Spain, but unpopular devolution settlements aren't really destined to last.

For English devolution to work it'd probably have to be done on some kind of historic county level (where there's a sense of collective identity), or done on England as a whole, which wouldn't really yield results much different to the current setup.

This is a very good point. I posted a while back on this thread how a devolved UK might work best. England obviously can't have one Parliament, as it fixes very little (Though if that's what the English public were calling for, who am i to say they can't?). And any local or regional body needs a long history or at least regional awareness. So the easiest suggestion would be the three former kingdoms of Saxon England surely? (Well plus one, as i'm pretty sure Cornwall and Devon would demand their own representation) They tend to be out there in the local consciousness and have a suitable grounding in history to make people think 'cool'. So Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria? Which happens to cover the three divisional zones in England currently really, socially and economically, the South, North and Midlands.

[Rootsie]

Charles De Gaulle once said "In every combat where for five centuries the destiny of France was at stake, there were always men of Scotland to fight side by side with men of France, and what Frenchmen feel is that no people has ever been more generous than yours with its friendship."

De Gaulle was one of the most famous anglophobes in history, perhaps not the best person to use when making your case.

Forgot to add Scottish money is rejected In England or has been when I and friends have used it.

I've been based in England (North Yorkshire, London and E Anglia) for about 5 years now. Only once in that period have I had any trouble using Scottish money and when I explained to the cashier that Scotland used different banknotes, but it was still GBP, she apologised and accepted the money.

Isn't it odd that I live with about 600 other Scots in England - all of whom regularly travel back to Scotland - and I've only heard a handful of stories about Scottish money being rejected in England, yet every single nationalist I've ever met claims that this happens to them whenever they visit England.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm5EBDa42ck Btw people here's he wright stuff clip, cant watch this without my blood boiling

Having watched the entire video, I don't see what you're so fussed about. Katie Hopkins is someone who has made her career around making sensationalist, provocative statements; a good rule is to ignore everything she says. The fact that she and Richard Madeley made some ill-informed comments about Scotland doesn't really bother me and you shouldn't let it bother you.

I actually think Ronni Ancona made some good points.

[Pielstick]

Charles De Gaulle once said "In every combat where for five centuries the destiny of France was at stake, there were always men of Scotland to fight side by side with men of France, and what Frenchmen feel is that no people has ever been more generous than yours with its friendship."

Well then it looks like you've got something in common with Charles De Gaulle, in that you apparently suffer from selective memory loss when it comes to your own history.



This is a painting called "Scotland For Ever" by Elizabeth Southerden Thompson, Lady Butler. It depicts the charge of the Royal Scots Greys at a little fracas we had with the French not far from a little village in Belgium, immortalised by a train station in London and a song by Abba.

[Stavroforos]

Weren't they the noblest cavalry in Europe, and the most poorly led?

Also, a BBC article about the possible flag of the UK, which apparently is made it up entries from anime fans and 5 year olds.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25205017

[Derpy Hooves]

Also, a BBC article about the possible flag of the UK, which apparently is made it up entries from anime fans

​False. None of those flags are moe enough or kawaii enough to be made by anime fans

[Stavroforos]

One of them looked like that flag that was used in whatever show had a country called Britannia.

[Condottiere 40K]

Just to annoy the French.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

One of them looked like that flag that was used in whatever show had a country called Britannia.

Well i think that's settled then, we'll have to stay in the Union, if nothing else because their flag would look rubbish without us.