Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

[Dante Von Hespburg]

EDIT: Totally misread Jom's reply I thought he said me clutching at straws. My apologies.

Also to your sources my friend, beyond the BBC news snippets, and the articles that show the SNP either totally ignoring the reports findings in their statements and not giving out any detail about how they plan to counter it. We have such gems as this:

Mr Swinney will argue Chancellor George Osborne's strategy has placed "too much emphasis on austerity, and not enough on promoting growth".
He will argue that all the blame for last week's GDP figures - which revealed the UK economy shrank more than expected at the end of last year - cannot be attributed to the eurozone crisis

"Much of the responsibility for the lack of economic growth must therefore be laid at the door of 11 Downing Street.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/295450-e...ty-snp-claims/

to follow a better path from the current Westminster system which stifles growth and is responsible for the damaging economic decisions this report, and its projections, are based on

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...ning-1-3192186

It's a card they keep using, but alas don't actually concentrate on what matters- the reality of things. We can argue all day back and forth about what happened, and why a finance or London based economy has led us into this mess. But the reality for Independence is this. And the SNP in particular don't seem to want to talk about that part yet. A minor problem though, as that's what matters to the electorate.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I love how the SNP are focusing on how the economy didn't grow as much as the original projections A YEAR AGO rather than ignoring this month's news that the UK is the fastest growing of all OCED countries:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...says-OECD.html

Yup, that's the United Kingdom ahead of the USA, Japan and Germany, and leaving recessionary France and Italy in its wake. In the space of just six months the OCED has increased its projections of UK growth from 0.8% to 1.4%.

Christ. I am starting to feel sorry for the nationalists. This is like drowning a bag of puppies.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I love how the SNP are focusing on how the economy didn't grow as much as the original projections A YEAR AGO rather than ignoring this month's news that the UK is the fastest growing of all OCED countries:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...says-OECD.html

Yup, that's the United Kingdom ahead of the USA, Japan and Germany, and leaving recessionary France and Italy in its wake. In the space of just six months the OCED has increased its projections of UK growth from 0.8% to 1.4%.

Christ. I am starting to feel sorry for the nationalists. This is like drowning a bag of puppies.

Very good find my friend, i knew we were on the mend, but to that extent, that's quite impressive. Its interesting really, as i don't actually see how the Independence camp can actually make any come-back on the economic argument now. I just literally can't see where the benefits lay at all, especially with the mounting evidence of the situation, coupled with as you've posted the fact the UK is doing rather well for itself now.

So without the economic argument, what is their left for Scottish Independence?

An interesting article that slipped under the radar a while back:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...eferendum.html

Seems without a real economic case, some supporters of Independence want to concentrate on the only thing going- emotive arguments.

Whereas countries seeking independence have traditionally made a simple case based on “the essence of national freedom”, he said arguments of national identity have been “diluted beyond trace” in Scotland.
SNP ministers should instead argue that London and the Home Counties are holding back Scotland after winning the “moral support” of leaders in Northern England, he said.

National freedom does not exist in a sterile environment. Yet in Scotland there is little such expression and the politicians, particularly on the Yes side, prefer to argue a case with all the excitement of a robot,” said the former Dundee East MP, who led the SNP between 1979 and 1990.
“As for nationalism, this has been successfully given the homoeopathic treatment so that it has been successively diluted beyond trace, and with it the strong card of Scotland's national identity!”

But Mr Wilson said Mr Salmond should instead run a much more negative campaign targeting the South East of England. “Scotland, with the moral support of the North, should strike at the southern cancer,

In all fairness to Salmond, his good point is that he at least tries to provide an economic argument for Independence, despite all our varying views on him and that arguments integrity. But the former leader. Mein Gott! All i will say is i'm glad he's not the one leading the campaign, he'd have been stomped into the ground by Union and Independence supporters very early on!

[removeduser_487563287433]

But Mr Wilson said Mr Salmond should instead run a much more negative campaign targeting the South East of England. “Scotland, with the moral support of the North, should strike at the southern cancer,

That's a truly, disgusting, tribalist sentiment worthy of a brain damaged chimpanzee troop leader, not a man.

[Rootsie]

In an interesting development, the Welsh First Minister, Carwyn Jones, has said that he would veto any proposal for a currency union of the rUK and an independent Scotland:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-25034379

[Dante Von Hespburg]

That's a truly, disgusting, tribalist sentiment worthy of a brain damaged chimpanzee troop leader, not a man.

While i may not have put it so forcefully :p i totally agree my friend. The mans attitude does reek of chauvinistic arrogance and intellectual bankruptcy.

In an interesting development, the Welsh First Minister, Carwyn Jones, has said that he would veto any proposal for a currency union of the rUK and an independent Scotland:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-25034379

Very interesting find Rootsie. To be honest its what i'd expect, and again further proof of the SNP's massive holes in detail and indeed reality. Theirs no way the rUK would wish to share in a currency Union. I don't blame the Welsh for speaking out at all. So that leaves us really with the Euro... with all the bells and whistles and NON-negotiation that go along with that in regards to the EU's travel, economic and legal policies.

[Bobz]

In an interesting development, the Welsh First Minister, Carwyn Jones, has said that he would veto any proposal for a currency union of the rUK and an independent Scotland:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-25034379

It wouldn't be his decision, but it does serve yet another blow to SNP claims that all their independence plans are foolproof.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

It wouldn't be his decision, but it does serve yet another blow to SNP claims that all their independence plans are foolproof.

I think the problem here is that not only is it a blow against them being foolproof, its more a blow that everyone knew was coming. None of the SNP's economic policies to date are in any way detailed out enough to be considered workable. It literally means we're left still on a limb waiting for some idea of how their going to overcome these issues AND make it worthwhile for us to vote for Independence.

[The Great Montrose]

I can agree with some of what Mr.Wilson says, maybe not the bits Dante chose to highlight (probably should have worded them better ) but I think it's clear he's voting Yes

And yes Project Fear is back and in full force! Vote Yes and a Welsh ToryLite politician will veto a currency union proposal!! Be afraid be very afraid!!! He cant actually do anything can he? Thats like Alex Salmond being given a veto over the result of a UK referendum to leave the EU.

So Dante I'm afraid that doesnt just leave us with the Euro, we can still use the pound as any country can, we can use a new Scottish currency (one I support with the Greens) or we can join the Euro. Many many choices, and do you know what, as in independent nation Scotland will be able to make these choices!! Something we cannot do now.

This Welshman also wants the barnett formula scrapped after a NO vote, yea thats fine, perfectly in tune with "bayoneting the wounded", lets cut Scotlands budget after a No vote.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/quoted-for-interest/

[Rootsie]

And yes Project Fear is back and in full force! Vote Yes and a Welsh ToryLite politician will veto a currency union proposal!! Be afraid be very afraid!!!

ToryLite? Are you really that bigoted?

So Dante I'm afraid that doesnt just leave us with the Euro, we can still use the pound as any country can, we can use a new Scottish currency (one I support with the Greens) or we can join the Euro. Many many choices, and do you know what, as in independent nation Scotland will be able to make these choices!! Something we cannot do now.

That is like asking a man whether he wishes to be hung, poisoned or shot.

The Euro, continued usage of the pound (with or without a currency union) or making our own currency are all terrible options. Staying part of the UK and being able to continue to use sterling, backed up by the BoE is by far and away our best option when it comes to currency.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Carwyn Jones is Labour. Why do you call him "ToryLite"? Just another baseless bit of dribble?

What would back a Scottish currency? Would it have any value? Why do you think you can outright join the Euro when Scottish membership of the EU has been questioned and why is this preferably during the Eurozone crisis?

All I see here is Scotland losing choices. Scotland couldn't join the Euro quickly and when it did it would be victim to the forces of the Eurozone crisis. It cannot establish its own currency and not even the SNP pretends it can. So one option, and one option only: the pound, just as you are not, but unlike now your monetary policy would be powerless against the whims of a foreign power now only concerned with the prosperity of the remaining UK.

Like drowning a bag of puppies.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I can agree with some of what Mr.Wilson says, maybe not the bits Dante chose to highlight (probably should have worded them better ) but I think it's clear he's voting Yes

And yes Project Fear is back and in full force! Vote Yes and a Welsh ToryLite politician will veto a currency union proposal!! Be afraid be very afraid!!!

So Dante I'm afraid that doesnt just leave us with the Euro, we can still use the pound as any country can, we can use a new Scottish currency (one I support with the Greens) or we can join the Euro. Many many choices, and do you know what, as in independent nation Scotland will be able to make these choices!! Something we cannot do now.

Haha that's fair enough my friend, indeed he probably shouldn't have gone lock stock and two smoking barrels, i'm afraid though that his view of the Independence debate is anachronistic. It's wrong, and indeed probably the one good thing i can say about Salmond is that he at least tries to concentrate on the economic aspect! Surely you'd rather us be actually better off my friend?

Also your right indeed, i concede that we can use the pound. The trouble is, if we did it would mean the UK's Bank of England will have full control of our financial policies, as we will have no say in the central exchange, fiscal rates etc. We'll basically be dependent on the UK. Though the same will probably be true in a currency Union anyway.

The trouble is though Andy that i'm afraid the SNP's main and central financial policy is to get a currency Union. So while you and i are looking at the alternatives, Salmond and co arn't. They haven't even properly looked in the Sterling Union! But they insist its official policy, despite everyone else, and themselves saying its a probable no go.

The smart thing indeed would be to look at the Euro for the short-mid term, the trouble with that is once your in the Euro, its actually nigh on impossible to switch out and establish your own currency again (as you advocated my friend) without the EU causing a fuss and setting up concessions.

The fact also is that with us adopting the Euro, once again we lose our Independence fiscally as we're then tied into the EU where we will have very little say on fiscal policy, due to the Franco-Germanic dominated nature of the zone, and the fact we have to take on all the other concessions, remember the EU has stated several times that we won't get any of the rights the UK enjoy.

As to our own currency. I'd actually agree with you, on theoretical independence its probably the only way for us to keep our independence totally. It's also the most difficult option. You've seen the economic mess we'll be in my friend? Trying to start up our own currency on top of that will exacerbate our problems ten-fold, not least because our economy will be heavily indebted, with a crappy interest rate, and spending cuts need to be deep to try and sort it out, as well as tax rises to balance. This is a rather bad time then to set up your own currency, as its strength on the global exchange will be pretty self defeating. Also theirs the case that possibly no foreign investment will want to touch it.

An interesting option that no one has even mentioned yet, is if we switch to the Dollar?

It's interesting that the SNP nor any of the Independence camps has even discussed this yet. As surely it would be like a get out of jail free card. It seems it takes a Union supporter like myself to come up with their own campaign for them!

The trouble basically Andy is that actually for us to make these choices, we have to then be approved by those in charge. We're not free to make demands, we can choose to be in the Currency Union...dosen't mean they want us, they actually don't seem to. We can choose to have the Euro, again though we have to join the EU and its up to them. We can also choose to have the Dollar, but then that's up to the US/IMF (Could be wrong on that last one).

Choices are limited by reality my friend. We'll have the freedom to ask, not choose.

[The Great Montrose]

ToryLite? Are you really that bigoted?


That is like asking a man whether he wishes to be hung, poisoned or shot.

The Euro, continued usage of the pound (with or without a currency union) or making our own currency are all terrible options. Staying part of the UK and being able to continue to use sterling, backed up by the BoE is by far and away our best option when it comes to currency.

Yes ToryLite, I'm not sure if the Welsh Labour party are any different to our Scottish Labour, but if they are the same then thats all they are. Labour has moved more and more central and isnt the party with traditional labour values anymore, it doesnt look out for the working people, not turning up to vote against the bedroom tax being one example, if they cared for the working man they would have got off there arses and voted to protect the poorest in their constituency. Our very own Anas Sarwar who waved a bit of paper infront of Sturgeon demanding she sign it to abolish the bedroom tax didnt turn up. Labour no longer looks out for who its support is.Scottish Labour wants to reverse many of the free services the SNP have introduced, not looking out for the working class is it? Lamont wants an end to our "something for nothing society"

As stated by the two very decorated Labour councillers an indy Scotland will allow Labour to return to its founding principles.

[removeduser_487563287433]

lol Andy is the world divided into nationalist and Tory for you?

[removeduser_487563287433]

A handy guide to politics, Andy addition:

A nationalist:



A Tory:



A nationalist:



A Tory:



A nationalist:



A Tory:

[OevetS]

A handy guide to politics, Andy addition:

A nationalist:



A Tory:



A nationalist:



A Tory:



A nationalist:



A Tory:

LOL quality

[The Great Montrose]

lol Andy is the world divided into nationalist and Tory for you?

Of course Ferrets, thats why I've spoken before about agreeing with the Scottish Greens and finding myself leaning towards some of their beliefs, same with the Socialists and traditional Labour values. As you can see I currently view myself as a Scottish nationalist, that doesnt mean in the future I wont change my political views. And yes I dislike the Tories, most Scots do. I also dislike how central Labour have become and I really have no view on the Lib Dems.

So as you can see the world is clearly divided into nationalist and Tory for me, Unionists cant seem to help themselves with personal attacks, isnt that when you know you've lost Ferrets, when you attack the person and not what the person has said?

Dante I cant give you rep just now untill I spread it around.

[removeduser_487563287433]

The Scottish Greens... are in favour of nationalism... hardly displaying any depth of political knowledge dude.

Anyway, Welsh leader is Labour. Talk facts or don't waste our time.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Of course Ferrets, thats why I've spoken before about agreeing with the Scottish Greens and finding myself leaning towards some of their beliefs, same with the Socialists and traditional Labour values. As you can see I currently view myself as a Scottish nationalist, that doesnt mean in the future I wont change my political views. And yes I dislike the Tories, most Scots do. I also dislike how central Labour have become and I really have no view on the Lib Dems.

So as you can see the world is clearly divided into nationalist and Tory for me, Unionists cant seem to help themselves with personal attacks, isnt that when you know you've lost Ferrets, when you attack the person and not what the person has said?

Dante I cant give you rep just now untill I spread it around.

It's alright my friend, i don't expect rep back when i give it out as i said the SNP could learn some things from some of the arguments I've encountered looking back! It's an interesting point about labor being too close to the center. Though i believe that actually it's merely the logical conclusion for most parties around the western world. If you look the conservatives are far more like labour now than vice versa. Both are typically quite center in their policies- combining (In theory!) the best and most workable parts of both ideologies. The trouble is this can give something of a perception about how all parties are the 'same' when they actually aren't'.

It also means that in times of particular economic issue, or indeed general fed-upness with all these parties that are seemingly similar and thus we get parties like UKIP, and the SNP gaining popularity because they offer a different surface. The issue here is that they tend to be one trick ponies. Arguably this is true of the SNP, as they haven't managed to yet go into serious detail about any of their plans.

It's also telling about this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ependence.html

When the poll ratings backing separation failed to budge, he stepped up his charm offensive by promising that a “social Union” with the rest of the UK would remain.But now it has emerged the First Minister has urged SNP MSPs to drop the word “independence” altogether because the concept is off-putting to voters, who view it as risky.

They have instead been told to use the term “independent Scotland” as voters think being “independent-minded” is a positive personal quality. However, some of the Nationalists are said to be angered by the edict.

Funny the little tactics the SNP are down to using. At least though its a clear sign they know that Independence isn't so much a wanted thing in Scotland. Remember those sources earlier about how many scots wish they'd concentrate on other issues more relevant to us? NHS etc, thus as i said a one trick pony.

[OevetS]

You can not argue anything with Andy it is totally pointless, I liken Andy to a creationist vs evolutionist debate. If you have ever had the pleasure to read trough one of these debates, you will realize how pointless it is to debate, argue with any of these creationist fanatics even when logic and undisputed facts are submitted.

Here is a laughable debate with Richard Dawkins and a creationist Wendy Wright (Wendy Wright reminds me of Andy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AS6rQtiEh8

Andy is a political prostitute, does not matter if it is far left, left, center, right or far right just as long as it gains independence.