Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

[selder]

taking with them ALL the jobs this time, Glasgow and Clyde.

Not to mention all the labour supporters, Glasgow and the Clyde will survive. After all its not the first time shipbuilding has taking a blow in Scotland now is it. I wonder if you blame the Scottish government that time as well? Oh wait they did not exist...oh who to blame? We certainly could not blame Westminster and our glorious union now could we? Lets continue to self-loath...lets blame the Scottish workers...maybe it was that Scottish workers just could not compete as we are just too small and dependent on our masters.

While you are here, maybe you could defend the embassy fiasco in Germany and tell us all how it is also a wonderful benefit to the Scottish people and our standing in the world community.

Of course, if the SNP had some chutzpah, they'd say that they believe independence to be valid even if it harms the Govan shipbuilding industry. I mean the SNP's argument is that Scotland will fare far better economically under independence and become a corporate paradise, so what's a couple of thousand jobs in the grand scheme of things?

But that's the thing Lazzeer, a vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP. I never said I agree with their policies I just think through independence we will have the power to deal with these sorts of events better. Look at Dante for instance...he constantly critiques the SNP while directly benefiting from one of their policies, namely free uni. Hypocracy has been thrown about a lot lately so no need to point it out again.

[Bobz]

Says who? Nostradamus?

Who is going to build ships there Selder? The vast bulk of shipbuilding done today occurs in the Far East, without the Royal Navy there's precious little work Scotland will be able to muster.

[Lazzeer]

But that's the thing Lazzeer, a vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP. I never said I agree with their policies I just think through independence we will have the power to deal with these sorts of events better. Look at Dante for instance...he constantly critiques the SNP while directly benefiting from one of their policies, namely free uni. Hypocracy has been thrown about a lot lately so no need to point it out again.

I'm not saying it is. I refer the SNP because they're the ones who have been given the media spotlight in regards to this issue, and also because they are spearheading the independence movement.

What I'm saying that independence will have an adverse impact on shipbuilding on the Clyde, and denying it (as the SNP have been) is disingenuous. I'm also saying it's a shame for the SNP that they seem to lack enough faith in their greater economic vision for an independent Scotland to admit this. Of this all comes down to the referendum - the SNP won't admit that not everyone will be 100% better off in an independent Scotland because they fear losing any votes, probably because they're already trailing. But acting like everything going to be hunky dory on the Clyde in an independent Scotland? That's just lying.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Not to mention all the labour supporters, Glasgow and the Clyde will survive. After all its not the first time shipbuilding has taking a blow in Scotland now is it. I wonder if you blame the Scottish government that time as well? Oh wait they did not exist...oh who to blame? We certainly could not blame Westminster and our glorious union now could we? Lets continue to self-loath...lets blame the Scottish workers...maybe it was that Scottish workers just could not compete as we are just too small and dependent on our masters.

While you are here, maybe you could defend the embassy fiasco in Germany and tell us all how it is also a wonderful benefit to the Scottish people and our standing in the world community.

It's interesting my friend, that you limit your answer to my post to this, and also also interesting how you continue to insist we'd be better off with our 'glorious' Independence, despite the mounting evidence and poor planning of the yes campaign, that mean Scotland would be in a far worse position than you argue now. You acknowledge that they'll be tax rises? You acknowledge the cuts to services that must be made? You acknowledge the deficit we'd inherit and the issues with interest that in turn gives us?

Also more importantly, you acknowledge in relation to the SNP that they've wasted £200,000 of OUR tax money covering up quite literally their lies? You also acknowledge these said lies about the EU in the fact they pretended to get 'expert advice' when they literally didn't? You also in the same vein acknowledge that Scotland will NOT be given any special treatment like the UK currently has within the EU? All these things have either been proven, or sourced beyond doubt. And in all cases the Independence camp lack a detailed plan of what to do.

Do you also acknowledge the fact that the Independence camp has failed to provide a detailed plan as to what the tax system will be like post-independence? How they'd fund the welfare service in its current promised state? What taxes they're going to raise?

When you've acknowledged these points my friend, then you can have a go at me for defending the Union. The fact is i'm being realistic.

As to your main point, you've side stepped the question haven't you. So i ask again, what happens post independence, as i've stated and sourced several times when we lose most of our shipbuilding industry? 1000s of job losses, your upset over 800, i think its a shame too. But who will you blame then? Considering your voting for this my friend. The SNP has literally no detailed plans on how they'd keep the ship building industry going, do they? They'd don't state how they'll stay competitive world wide when the East are more experienced and cheaper, and the rUK refuse to build from foreign ports.

You can whine indeed about the past, have i liked all government policies under the Union? Of course not. I've stated again and again, that i believe the Union needs to change, yet the benefits it brings to us are huge. And lets be serious now Selder. Scotland on it's own will in no way ever come close to the economic power of the UK. We also will never enjoy the same political power. Does that mean we're servants to the English though? No. I don't have an inferiority complex, i believe we bring our own value to the Union, and everyone, Scots, Irish, Welsh and English work together for the betterment of each other.

If you've noticed too from reading this thread, the Scottish referendum has kick started significant debate about a more federalized structure of the Union.

As to the spying, i'm assuming you've read the thread dedicated to that? Their will be very few diplomatic repercussions beyond a slap on the wrist. And hopefully we'll tone down the spying on our allies. Of course in all honesty everyone does spy on everyone else, i'm assuming you know that even in the second world war the UK and US had largescale spy operations on one another. Its what states do i'm afraid. Something i'd point out that as an Independent Nation we'll be relying on the UK to do for us... when they literally will have no reason (beyond getting something out of it from us) to share information. Another great SNP plan!

[selder]

What I'm saying that independence will have an adverse impact on shipbuilding on the Clyde, and denying it (as the SNP have been) is disingenuous. I'm also saying it's a shame for the SNP that they seem to lack enough faith in their greater economic vision for an independent Scotland to admit this. Of this all comes down to the referendum - the SNP won't admit that not everyone will be 100% better off in an independent Scotland because they fear losing any votes, probably because they're already trailing. But acting like everything going to be hunky dory on the Clyde in an independent Scotland? That's just lying.

unfortunately shipbuilding on the Clyde died a long time ago, their is no doubting that. We are only witnessing post-mortem spasms, I can assure you the soul left long ago. To your point I would add, no one can act like everything is going to be hunky dory, as we witnessed the last few days. Not the SNP, not Westminster, not even Dante.

Fact...Beyond the carriers there are currently no new orders on the books of the BAE's Glasgow yards at Govan and Scotstoun. Not to mention the £800m overspend incurred in building the two aircraft carriers that will bring total costs to more than £6bn... double the original estimate. The games up, time to diversify. Independence allows us the freedom to make long term decisions and implement a strategic plan for turning it all around. The union only prolongs the misery. After all a promise on retaining (private) shipyards in Scotland is not Salmond or Camerons to give. Ah, the joys of privatisation...

then you can have a go at me for defending the Union.

Very well then, but you are under the impression the union can guarantee any of those things you brought up, which you and I both know is just not true as no one can know what will happen next month let alone next year. Quite simply, I do not claim that independence will be easy, I claim it will be better for the people of Scotland in the long run.

So i ask again, what happens post independence, as i've stated and sourced several times when we lose most of our shipbuilding industry? 1000s of job losses, your upset over 800, i think its a shame too. But who will you blame then? Considering your voting for this my friend.

We can choose to invest in industry that benefits our society. These jobs are doomed anyway, where have you been?

Scotland on it's own will in no way ever come close to the economic power of the UK. We also will never enjoy the same political power.

Power? We lost that years and years ago, and anyway what good is it if its just wasted?

the Scottish referendum has kick started significant debate about a more federalized structure of the Union.

Alex Douglas-Home made a similar promise of jam tomorrow in 1979 but, once devolution had been rejected, there was no decentralisation of power during the subsequent 18 years of Tory government. In my opinion the last Conservative Prime Minister who had the opportunity to save the union and create a federal UK was probably John Major.

Their will be very few diplomatic repercussions beyond a slap on the wrist. And hopefully we'll tone down the spying on our allies.

But Dante if that is just what everyone does then why would you hope we would tone it down?

[Rootsie]

Great Montrose, I'm sorry, but your post was so ridiculous and exasperating, that I just cannot be bothered to go through it all at the moment.

Fact...Beyond the carriers there are currently no new orders on the books of the BAE's Glasgow yards at Govan and Scotstoun.

Untrue, the Clyde yards are under contract to build 3 OPVs for the Royal Navy.

It is worth remembering that from 1967-2003 there was no shipbuilding in Portsmouth and the last major ship to be entirely built in Portsmouth was HMS Andromeda who was launched in 1967. Since then Portsmouth has specialised in fleet maintenance and refits, and even though the shipbuilding facilities will close, the Government is investing £100 Million in new facilities and an expansion programme in Portsmouth.

As usual the news is taking the worst possible angle and running with that.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

unfortunately shipbuilding on the Clyde died a long time ago, their is no doubting that. We are only witnessing post-mortem spasms, I can assure you the soul left long ago. To your point I would add, no one can act like everything is going to be hunky dory, as we witnessed the last few days. Not the SNP, not Westminster, not even Dante.

Fact...Beyond the carriers there are currently no new orders on the books of the BAE's Glasgow yards at Govan and Scotstoun. Not to mention the £800m overspend incurred in building the two aircraft carriers that will bring total costs to more than £6bn... double the original estimate. The games up, time to diversify. Independence allows us the freedom to make long term decisions and implement a strategic plan for turning it all around. The union only prolongs the misery. After all a promise on retaining (private) shipyards in Scotland is not Salmond or Camerons to give. Ah, the joys of privatisation...

To your second point about the shipyards my friend, i believe Rootsie has pointed out that shipbuilding is indeed continuing in Scotland, also on top of that we have the GCS's (13 in total) and the possible black swan class to look at, of which a possible 40 may be built, if the concept is approved. There were also long spells of no shipbuilding in Portsmouth as well as other places due to the fact that military contracts tend to only be contracted when the military needs something.

Hence your strange idea that shipbuilding is dead my friend is just plain wrong. It will of course we dead in an independent Scotland, but thats another issue .

Also to your private shipyards point my friend, indeed not. But an independent Scotland its more than likely they'll close down as several sources have stated due to the fact theirs no market. The UK is down south who offer the high level contacts, we wouldn't be able to afford to build a modern destroyer for instance. Thus they will go when the money is.

Very well then, but you are under the impression the union can guarantee any of those things you brought up, which you and I both know is just not true as no one can know what will happen next month let alone next year. Quite simply, I do not claim that independence will be easy, I claim it will be better for the people of Scotland in the long run.

This is a very good point my friend. But the fact is when looking at it, its far more likely that the UK is in a position to (or can revisit at a later date) offer, safeguard and implement these things. Whereas an Independent Scotland is not. As you say, its going to be had, and in the long run i'm afraid i can only disagree my friend, it will be worse for us, for the economic reason's i've cited throughout this argument. As you say, we can't be sure of anything. But in terms of liklihood, the Union has the factor that in comparison, we're more than likely to be far better off with it than out of it.

We can choose to invest in industry that benefits our society. These jobs are doomed anyway, where have you been?

But their not doomed, i've already pointed out the UK has a commitment to build its own warships in the UK for Defense reasons. Take a look at my opening post in the revitalization of the Royal Navy (The MoD is an institution I've come to passionately despise even more, but its interesting the things on the build list) theirs a lot going on. The fact is after a period of inertia the shipbuilding industry actually ramped up for the two carriers, but since the other orders are for smaller ships (naturally, you can't only have capital ships!) The infrastructure isn't required for the business to do these orders), so shipbuilding is more of a flux cycle than a permanent decline my friend, its wrong to say otherwise.

Also invest with what capital my friend? This is something the Independence camp hasn't actually gone into detail about, i'm assuming money saved from cuts? Or maybe higher taxation?

Power? We lost that years and years ago, and anyway what good is it if its just wasted?

You've seen the concessions we get out of the EU my friend? The fact we're world number 1 in soft power, the fact that we consistently punch above our political weight and are listened to, are a key member of NATO and hold a permanent seat on the security council. I think you may have misunderstood, i'm not talking about military super-powerdom, or Empire. I'm talking about the UK in the modern world, and yes we do have a very large say in things. As to your point of it being wasted, while i'm not sharing that opinion, surely you can see how something that previously has been wasted can be put to good use through change? That's my whole problem with the Independence call, most of the issues they have are ones that can quite literally be fixed within the Union for us, so we can enjoy the best of all worlds!

Alex Douglas-Home made a similar promise of jam tomorrow in 1979 but, once devolution had been rejected, there was no decentralisation of power during the subsequent 18 years of Tory government. In my opinion the last Conservative Prime Minister who had the opportunity to save the union and create a federal UK was probably John Major.

And yet that still doesn't counter the fact that interest is rising in it my friend. Especially with the huge Lothian Question. Their have actually been reports commisioned that i've posted on how the UK could be restructured. Theirs interest. If only people would stop going for the ultimate (and in our terms of probability that you and i speak of) and most likely worse option of Independence, and put those energies and resources towards a restructuring of the UK, that's something that could happen.

Indeed the federal argument can be much likened to Scottish Independence, look how far thats come, a second referendum already!

But Dante if that is just what everyone does then why would you hope we would tone it down?

Because that's what you do in realpolitik if you get caught, you make conciliatory gestures and political appeasement, yet you don't really mean it. I mean come on Selder, are you honestly saying that states do not spy on one another? That we're all so incredibly 'moral'.

Some examples:

Sweden: http://www.thelocal.se/20130909/50134

Norway: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ubleo_syv.html (They actually killed people!)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Pakistan.html

France: http://en.mercopress.com/2013/11/06/...ntial-culprits

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...56146854,d.d2k (Where they admit they actually also spy on the US! An Ally!)

Netherlands: http://vorige.nrc.nl/international/article2529342.ece (have set up their own secret service for foreign spying!)

[Poach]

Great Montrose, I'm sorry, but your post was so ridiculous and exasperating, that I just cannot be bothered to go through it all at the moment.


Untrue, the Clyde yards are under contract to build 3 OPVs for the Royal Navy.

It is worth remembering that from 1967-2003 there was no shipbuilding in Portsmouth and the last major ship to be entirely built in Portsmouth was HMS Andromeda who was launched in 1967. Since then Portsmouth has specialised in fleet maintenance and refits, and even though the shipbuilding facilities will close, the Government is investing £100 Million in new facilities and an expansion programme in Portsmouth.

As usual the news is taking the worst possible angle and running with that.

The yards are building 3 new patrol boats to fill the labour gap until the 13 Type 26 Frigates start construction in 2015 or 2016. If Scotland leaves the Union the MoD won't place those orders on the Clyde, as the MoD makes regular use of the anti-competition clause in EU trade rules to keep defence procurement at home.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Latest polls:

Among those certain to vote in the referendum next September, 29 per cent back independence and 47 per cent back the Union.
But the poll, by TNS BMRB, suggests a large number of people have still not made up their minds (24 per cent).
The results show 49 per cent of respondents want more information on the future of the economy and jobs. A total of 37 per cent want further information on pensions and benefits, 31 per cent on taxes and 22 per cent on immigration.
The future of Scotland’s currency, which has been a main focus among politicians, registers as a major issue for just 13 per cent of people in the survey.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...poll-1-3177800

A large lead still for Union at 47% against 29% ...funnily enough also:

The results show 49 per cent of respondents want more information on the future of the economy and jobs. A total of 37 per cent want further information on pensions and benefits, 31 per cent on taxes and 22 per cent on immigration.

So they won't be getting that level of detail off the SNP anytime soon it seems. Also this made me laugh from the SNP spokesperson:

A spokesman for pro-independence group Yes Scotland said: “We know from our own research, which is far more exploratory and detailed than conventional binary polling, that the more people learn about the benefits of independence the more likely they are to vote Yes.

Oh sweet irony. You can't write this stuff!

Now our second polls has support for Independence at 25% with Union being 43%

Scottish Voters Backing Independence Remain at 25% in TNS Survey

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...ns-survey.html

And our source backs up the first one, by reporting on the same poll i believe:

According to a poll by research group TNS BMRB, 47% want to remain part of Britain, 29% support independence and 24% of people say they are undecided on which way to vote.

So clear lead still for the Union, but indeed a major, and i mean very major swing could change this, though its going to close in that event. I'm currently seeing though at this rate a clear win for Union, with the undecided coming round to the Union argument as i don't see how the SNP, beyond suddenly giving us the detail we demand in a clear and truthful way (and then assuming it proves we'll be better off) can change things towards their favor.

[Kraut and Tea]

I am amazed at how many people show interest in this thread.

If Scotland declares it`s independence from the UK or not has absolutly no relevants to me, my governemt, my life, my job and everything else in my life.

It is a matter that will be desided by the Scots and by them alone.

So what good would anything I say do here?

And who in Europe even listens to a Germans opinions outside of Germany?

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I am amazed at how many people show interest in this thread.

If Scotland declares it`s independence from the UK or not has absolutly no relevants to me, my governemt, my life, my job and everything else in my life.

It is a matter that will be desided by the Scots and by them alone.

So what good would anything I say do here?

And who in Europe even listens to a Germans opinions outside of Germany?

We're a pretty hardcore bunch... and loud...and opinionated... and mostly all from the UK actually looking at the last 50 odd pages of serious debaters, so i think we all just have an interest and a claim.

and don't worry... i'll listen to the germans!

But seriously intellectually though it may affect you my friend, you may have an opinion on it, or indeed it may have consequences for the EU, in the case of a yes vote, a new member from Western Europe, and a small though arguably seemingly same UK, or in the case of a no-vote, you may have a UK who further integrates with Europe, or completely goes stupid and kicks itself out! Who knows my friend, but i'd say in an increasingly globalized world, everything has an effect on someone in some way.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I am amazed at how many people show interest in this thread.

If Scotland declares it`s independence from the UK or not has absolutly no relevants to me, my governemt, my life, my job and everything else in my life.

It is a matter that will be desided by the Scots and by them alone.

So what good would anything I say do here?

Clearly nothing.

[Kraut and Tea]

We're a pretty hardcore bunch... and loud...and opinionated... and mostly all from the UK actually looking at the last 50 odd pages of serious debaters, so i think we all just have an interest and a claim.

and don't worry... i'll listen to the germans!

But seriously intellectually though it may affect you my friend, you may have an opinion on it, or indeed it may have consequences for the EU, in the case of a yes vote, a new member from Western Europe, and a small though arguably seemingly same UK, or in the case of a no-vote, you may have a UK who further integrates with Europe, or completely goes stupid and kicks itself out! Who knows my friend, but i'd say in an increasingly globalized world, everything has an effect on someone in some way.

As far as I have heard the SNP wants Scotland to remain in the EU if Scotland should become independent.

Scotland still has the most underdeveloped and poorest regions of the UK in it and as such it get alot of funds from the EU to combat that.

Which is the same reason why Catalonia wants to remain in the EU if it should become independent from Spain.

Anyway, Scotish independence would be possitive for the UK`s EU membership since the UK could then demand funds for it`s poorest and most underveloped regions elsewhere which would then probably be in northern England.

Other than that, I personaly think that the English want out of the EU anyway. I am looking at your country from an outsiders perspective so we might disagree.

But what I see when looking at England is a country ruled by politicians who after passing a bill increasing the tax on meatpies, call a pressconfrence to praise meatpies and have themselves pictured by the tabloid press eating meatpies, thereby treating the electorate of a country like a bunch of morons who are not capable of seeing through such cheap pandering.
I see a country in which public opinion is formed by the worst kind of tabloid boobs press that existed in a democratic country.
I see a country in which important political decions over the economy are made at a expensive private dinner with the primeminister and not in a parlaiment.
I see a country from which hardly any students chose to take semesters on the European continent and which hardly engages in cultural or economic exchange with the rest of Europe other than having it`s hoolingans rought up some Belgians, Germans and French people here and then.
I see a country whos culture, comedy and entertainment is pritty much built on ridiculing other cultures on the continent and looking down on them as infirior.
I see a country which has successfully managed to dismantle it`s diverse economy into a unstable service sectore based economy with hardly any manufacturing, through the idiotic decisions of it`s political leadership in the past 30 years, yet rather keeps moaning about other countries than fixing itself.
I see a country which accepts, justifies and follows every decision by the USA to the extent that one could even think that it was part of that union.
I see a country which had it`s primeminister and his cabinet lie the country into a bloody and costly war, yet those responsible have never been held accounable.
I see a country which has no constitution and is technicaly still a theocracy with a monarch "appointed by god".

Now, I do sincerely hope that you can correct me in some of these things I assume of your country. But from what I see, I think Scotish independence might be good for England, because it might rattle that country up and motivate it to fix it`s problems. Or maybe even appoint Stephen Fry as it`s primeminister.

[Lazzeer]

unfortunately shipbuilding on the Clyde died a long time ago, their is no doubting that. We are only witnessing post-mortem spasms, I can assure you the soul left long ago. To your point I would add, no one can act like everything is going to be hunky dory, as we witnessed the last few days. Not the SNP, not Westminster, not even Dante.

Absolutely, the Clyde only operates because its essentially subsidised by the Ministry of Defence. I certainly don't think the SNP's to blame for this.

Fact...Beyond the carriers there are currently no new orders on the books of the BAE's Glasgow yards at Govan and Scotstoun. Not to mention the £800m overspend incurred in building the two aircraft carriers that will bring total costs to more than £6bn... double the original estimate. The games up, time to diversify. Independence allows us the freedom to make long term decisions and implement a strategic plan for turning it all around. The union only prolongs the misery. After all a promise on retaining (private) shipyards in Scotland is not Salmond or Camerons to give. Ah, the joys of privatisation...

..and here's where the problems are. Scottish shipbuilding is in decline, and as such it will very likely not be resurgent in an independent Scotland. We may wish to emualte Norway, Germany, and Finland, but upon independence our inefficient industry will be in competititon with these countries. Faced with a sink or swim scenario at birth, Scottish shipbuilding will likely sink. The Scottish government may talk about renationalisation of the post office, but I very much doubt any Scottish government will renationalise the shipbuilding industry. Scottish shipbuilding is essentially on MoD life support, and once this is turned off, I don't think it's unrealistic to say the it will likely die. Pointing this out isn't a threat to Scotland, at least any more than claims by the SNP of Scots being economically better off are a bribe. But denying that Scottish shipbuilding will be affected by Scottish independence is a lie.

Now, I do sincerely hope that you can correct me in some of these things I assume of your country. But from what I see, I think Scotish independence might be good for England, because it might rattle that country up and motivate it to fix it`s problems. Or maybe even appoint Stephen Fry as it`s primeminister.

I think Scottish independence could lead the British rump state to a more European outlook, as it could potentially deal a blow against Little Englanders who seem to think Britain is still a superpower and doesn't need Europe.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

As far as I have heard the SNP wants Scotland to remain in the EU if Scotland should become independent.

Scotland still has the most underdeveloped and poorest regions of the UK in it and as such it get alot of funds from the EU to combat that.

Which is the same reason why Catalonia wants to remain in the EU if it should become independent from Spain.

Anyway, Scotish independence would be possitive for the UK`s EU membership since the UK could then demand funds for it`s poorest and most underveloped regions elsewhere which would then probably be in northern England.

Other than that, I personaly think that the English want out of the EU anyway. I am looking at your country from an outsiders perspective so we might disagree.

But what I see when looking at England is a country ruled by politicians who after passing a bill increasing the tax on meatpies, call a pressconfrence to praise meatpies and have themselves pictured by the tabloid press eating meatpies, thereby treating the electorate of a country like a bunch of morons who are not capable of seeing through such cheap pandering.
I see a country in which public opinion is formed by the worst kind of tabloid boobs press that existed in a democratic country.
I see a country in which important political decions over the economy are made at a expensive private dinner with the primeminister and not in a parlaiment.
I see a country from which hardly any students chose to take semesters on the European continent and which hardly engages in cultural or economic exchange with the rest of Europe other than having it`s hoolingans rought up some Belgians, Germans and French people here and then.
I see a country whos culture, comedy and entertainment is pritty much built on ridiculing other cultures on the continent and looking down on them as infirior.
I see a country which has successfully managed to dismantle it`s diverse economy into a unstable service sectore based economy with hardly any manufacturing, through the idiotic decisions of it`s political leadership in the past 30 years, yet rather keeps moaning about other countries than fixing itself.
I see a country which accepts, justifies and follows every decision by the USA to the extent that one could even think that it was part of that union.
I see a country which had it`s primeminister and his cabinet lie the country into a bloody and costly war, yet those responsible have never been held accounable.
I see a country which has no constitution and is technicaly still a theocracy with a monarch "appointed by god".

Now, I do sincerely hope that you can correct me in some of these things I assume of your country. But from what I see, I think Scotish independence might be good for England, because it might rattle that country up and motivate it to fix it`s problems. Or maybe even appoint Stephen Fry as it`s primeminister.

That's enough premise to put forward my friend as a personal 'outsider' perspective if you will. Allow me to provide answers or indeed sometimes agree-ance to your points now, with specific relevance given to my own Country's application for Independence (I'm Scottish, so i may with regards to England not be the most knowledgeable or in a position to say)

Firstly with regards to your economic points my friend, The UK economy is not nearly as weak nor brittle as you seem to believe, it is indeed true that in particular through the Thatcher Era a lot of the UK's economic diversity, especially in Industry was gutted (I'll provide a simplistic explanation for now, but if you want something more in-depth, i'm more than happy to oblige.), rightly or wrongly, this was due to at the time the lack of competitiveness with regards to the British steel and coal industry, along with other heavy labor, which quite simply were being outsourced, or indeed trying to compete with the rise of the second world as mass manufactures, who's prices we could never hope to match.

Currently though skipping forward a few decades we have right now in the UK a re-diversification of our economy, formerly heavily reliant of the services sector (Like most First world nations), in particular the financial sector, with London being (and still is) the worlds financial capital (though increasingly New York, and i believe Singapore? are up there too).

The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world and the 3rd in Europe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy...United_Kingdom (sorry for the wiki, but its a good place to simply show this, and is sourced)

The United Kingdom has the sixth-largest national economy in the world (and third-largest in Europe)

But with the current recession, ironically the UK was among one of the least hard hit in Europe, and already showing the greatest signs of growth:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24799507

The UK is set to grow faster than any other Western economy, according to the ICAEW - the body representing English and Welsh accountants.Its monitor of business confidence, sponsored by accountants Grant Thornton, suggests economic growth of 1.3% in the fourth quarter of 2013.
The report identified signs of rising business confidence.
Its view of the economy mirrors that of the CBI, whose recent assessment also suggest a strong pick-up in growth.
The CBI, whose annual conference begins on Monday, said the UK economy was recovering at a "slow and steady" pace.

As you can see, not the feat of a country who's economy is up the creak.

In fact the UK economy out of the crisis has the potential of something of a revilatisation, this though will indeed be a long and hard process, but reaching it could mean becoming THE premier economy in Europe (Though this should be noted, We, like much of Europe will lose out as the BRICS surpass us, theirs literally no way we can compete for their places, due to the fact they have vast first and second area industries, large populations and vast resources- something all of us truly lack in Europe).

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/com...-uk-2013-05-15

And yet that shouldn’t blind anyone to the underlying trend. Britain is set to become the richest country in Europe. How is that possible? Well, economic performance is always relative. It is not that the U.K. is doing particularly well. The economy is struggling to grow at more than 1% a year and may do so for years to come. There is certainly no sign of a sudden acceleration of growth.

But the rest of Europe is doing much, much worse. The euro crisis has locked the continent into a permanent depression. Once you take that point on board, the math becomes relatively simple. If the rest of Europe is stagnant, or getting smaller, then the U.K. makes relative progress just by staying where it is.
Western Europe is always going to have some small, very wealthy countries. Switzerland has a lot of banks and Norway has a lot of oil. But the major economies are Italy, France, the U.K. and Germany. Italy has been left far behind — the days when it could challenge the U.K. are long gone.According to figures from the International Monetary Fund, Italian gross domestic product per capita is only $30,136. The total size of its economy in 2011, the latest year for which World Bank figures are available, was $2.19 trillion. France’s GDP per capita was $35,548, and the total size of its economy was $2.77 trillion. The U.K., by contrast, has a GDP per capita of $36,941 and a total output of $2.45 trillion.

As to how we may possibly overtake Germany for such a top spot... 'Winner of the losers' really.

Germany faces harder times ahead.There is another factor as well. From 2015, Germany will have a sharply declining population. By 2020, it will have 80 million people, according to the Federal Statistical Office. By 2060, that will be down to 64 million people. By contrast by 2050, the U.K. will be home to 80 million people, according to a report last year by the Population Reference Bureau. So on demographics alone, at some point, the U.K. will overtake Germany.
It is simply a question of when it happens.
That will have big consequences. It will make the U.K. a magnate for immigrants: people gravitate toward the biggest, richest economy in any region, and in Europe that will be the U.K. It will attract investment: companies like to put money into the biggest markets. And it will make the U.K. a far more powerful voice in European politics —- money talks.

Another source on the issue of the UK's reletive climb:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...y-Germany.html

Indeed, on HSBC's numbers, the difference by 2050 is so marginal that Britain may by then be the largest economy in Europe, always assuming it is not split asunder by Scottish separation.Even in terms of per capita income, which is the measure that really matters, the UK falls only three notches to 14th richest.
Of course, these forecasts take no account of "events" – wars, pestilence, disease, reckless public policy and so on. They only extrapolate out from existing trends and assumptions.

A very indepth look actually, but what you can see from this opening my friend is that the UK is a strong economy. This is largely due to the recent (only past few years i can track) diversification of the economy. We're trying to grow back our industry, and rely less on finance, though they will still continue to play a large role i believe.

For instance, its reletively unknown here in the UK, but we actually have the worlds second largest areo-space industry:
http://news.bis.gov.uk/Press-Release...wth-6916d.aspx

The UK has the second largest aerospace industry in the world

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/aerospa...017274.article

The UK boasts the world’s second largest aerospace sector, but it doesn’t get the credit it deserves. Jon Excell and Stuart Nathan examine the sector’s success stories.Imagine an industry that has defied the worst economic downturn in living memory and continued to grow; an industry that designs and manufactures the most advanced pieces of some of the world’s most-talked-about feats of engineering; an industry with a bright present and a plan for the future; and an industry that’s internationally recognised as being one of the best in the world. While this might sound to some like a frustrating blueprint for everything the UK has lost, its buoyant aerospace sector ticks all of these boxes and many more.

As you can see my friend, the UK's areo-space industry actually continued to grow, even during the economic recession, this is one example of how the last decade or so of sensible diversification is paying off. In 2004 for instance:

• The aviation industry directly contributed £11.4 billion to UK GDP in 2004 and employed 186,000 people.

http://www.gacag.org/images/gacag/pd...20the%20UK.pdf

This figure has only grown.

The services industry too is growing, and fast:

Britain's services sector expanded at its fastest rate since May 1997 last month, raising the prospect of another big jump in economic growth in the final three months of 2013.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/1...9A40BF20131105

A gauge of activity rose to 62.5 from 60.3 in September, the highest since May 1997, Markit Economics said today in London. The report came as the European Commission forecast the U.K. economy will grow 2.2 percent next year, twice the pace of the euro area and more than Germany and France.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...-16-years.html

And again in this area we're outperforming the other Big two in Europe, France and Germany.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...countants.html

Britain is leading the economic recovery in Europe, amid looser funding conditions and a flurry of private investment that has boosted confidence.
Almost two thirds of respondents to the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA) quarterly economic survey said they believed that the economy had improved in the three months to September 30, up from 42pc in the second quarter.

Though don't get me wrong here, this isn't the UK single-handily powering through, this current growth is in conjunction with our trading partners in Germany, France etc. It just so happens we seem best placed to make the most of it, due to the UK economy being so diverse, large and most importantly lax! Theirs a lot of room for investors and businesses to grow, with a comparatively low corporate tax which means the UK maintains a rather large competitive edge over others in Europe.

So i think its safe to say my friend, that we're doing rather well, and that's a big reason for Scotland to remain part of the UK, as we share and enjoy the fruits of all our combined wealth. As to the Scottish economy, we're not quite a backwater, though indeed large parts of the highlands are underdeveloped, but Glasgow is a major Industrial center, helping fuel the UK's industry, while Edinburgh is a financial center in it's own right, though of course not on the scale of London.

What the debate will helpfully lead too is a greater devolution of powers, and a re-look at the structure of the Union, which in my opinion has some flaws.

Thus i think though its safe to say the UK economy is doing rather well actually, so don't worry about that my friend. I hope this goes some way to changing your perception of that. We're not broken nor brittle yet, but diverse and growing. Of course in terms of raw industry, it will be hard for us to ever get back our previous levels, simply due to our lack of real resources, we're a small island, and without an Empire to fuel our raw materials industry, we simply can't afford it on equal footing with say Germany or China, or the US.

As to EU membership, British Businesses appreciate and indeed want greater EU integration on average, as they know that's where our largest market lies. Your average Brit though is more way, and this i would argue is soley down the the economic recession and the perceptions of 'immigrant workers' from eastern Europe 'stealing our jobs' The EU skepticism will die down as our recovery gathers pace. We can already see this in for instance the decline of support for the BNP (It's now no more than a fringe group) and how quickly the UKIP surge died of death!

As to your comments about the constitution, or lack there-of this is one of thing things being discussed actually in regards to the UK structure, but a faster thing to answer would, that actually your confusing a European head of state, with a UK head of state my friend. The monarchy is purely ceremonial, our actual ruler- the Prime Minister (The equivalent politically to your Chancellor) is a democratically elected representative.

The monarchy also isn't ordained by god. The UK has the largest percentage of atheists in Europe i believe, or second largest, so its not as if we think that. Some people like the Monarchy for the tourism it attracts, others for the history, but they have no political power and so you can't really say we're a theocracy in any true sense of the word.

The war, i'm assuming your talking about the war on terror? Its' been controversial indeed, though which leaders you'd hold accountable and to whom is interesting? We voted, and we followed, for the purposes of resources, freedom, safety - take your pick, all are right and all are wrong.

The 'special relationship' with the USA is something i know the UK gets a lot of flack about, but i would point out that firstly, its actually quite a quarrelsome relationship - like any married couple, the UK and US share similar interests, a similar culture and a similar ideology, and share a common history and common roots, hence being close global allies makes sense. And lets face it, theirs nothing wrong on being on good terms with the worlds only (current) super power now is their in terms of realpolitik. The UK also maintains one of two in europe globally deploy-able armed forces (the othere being France) and power projection. We also work a lot with the US and France on Defense contracts and close support, thus i wouldn't say its a bad thing.

in terms of comedy and culture, a lot of British humour is actually self deprecating. We're the first to laugh and make fun of our leaders (And each other!), and i think this strikes some Europeans as weird when we do it to them. Its' not an insult nor intentional, its more we have no barriers and will laugh at anyone or anything, as why should anything be beyond the scope of comedy?

In terms of student cross cultural relations, i can actually speak first-hand being at Uni that we get a LOT of international students studying here, theirs a reason Londons called a world city and that we're multicultural! In my area, we have students from France, US, Canada, India, Uganda, Egypt, Poland, Germany, Italy, Russia, China, Indonesia, South Africa, Brazil, Mexico and the Netherlands and that's just here! Also we have several exchange programmes in my area, most of them go to Germany over year! Of which i've partaken in several times in the past. So i would say its untrue to say we don't have cultural exchange.

As to economic exchange, London's a financial capital- that speaks for itself my friend.

As to public Opinion, everywhere people are stupid, you won't get argument for that. But on average the posters you see here from the UK, take a look at their opinions and i think it will be easy to see we're not really into the whole tabloid press issue .

Anyway my friend, i hope that answers some of your points. Sorry if its a bit all over the place, i was trying to condense a lot of info and sources for you!

[selder]

If Scotland leaves the Union the MoD won't place those orders on the Clyde

Even if we stay their is no guarantee, which is exactly my point. The contract is with BAE not Scotland or the Clyde. They are a private company and can produce those ships wherever. But don't just take my word for it.

"a sustainable shipbuilding capacity in the UK to build type 26 frigates…the purpose was to rationalise the business. We wanted BAE Systems to be a high performance yard when we got to Type 26. We wanted them to have reduced their overhead. The deal is predicated on them coming down to the equivalent overhead of one complex warship-building yard. It is for them to decide how they achieve that, whether it is with two yards building in Portsmouth and on the Clyde, or one yard. That is their decision.”

But denying that Scottish shipbuilding will be affected by Scottish independence is a lie.

I think we are in full agreement then, I would only add that this will occur whether we are independent or dependent of the MoD. When the yards closed in Greenock many of the men moved on but their were also quite a few who went to work for IBM, from building ships to building computers.

I think Scottish independence could lead the British rump state to a more European outlook, as it could potentially deal a blow against Little Englanders who seem to think Britain is still a superpower and doesn't need Europe.

I said it before and I will say it again, it would be the best thing for all British people. Like our German friend pointed out, it would force a shift of power and be a great benefit to the north of England. Not to mention the benefit the north will gain from trade between the two countries.

[Pielstick]

But what I see when looking at England is a country ruled by politicians who after passing a bill increasing the tax on meatpies, call a pressconfrence to praise meatpies and have themselves pictured by the tabloid press eating meatpies, thereby treating the electorate of a country like a bunch of morons who are not capable of seeing through such cheap pandering.

This was a proposal. It was never passed. It was picked up by the media and sensationalised, especially by sections of the media who want to promote a class war agenda. If German politicians are above (clumsy) damage control and back pedalling over miscalculated policy proposals then please let me know.

I see a country in which public opinion is formed by the worst kind of tabloid boobs press that existed in a democratic country.

Funnily enough the "tabloid boob press" very rarely deals with real issues but instead spends much of its time covering celebrity stories. When they do pick up a real issue, or something related to a real issue, they pedal the populist line. They don't form or influence popular public opinion - they follow it.

I see a country in which important political decions over the economy are made at a expensive private dinner with the primeminister and not in a parlaiment.

Perhaps an exaggeration or misconception on your part? You don't have lobbying in Germany? One hopes that the process of cabinet and then parliament at least means that one man can't make all the biggest decisions by himself. What's more the politicians relinquished a great deal of economic clout to the Governor of the Bank of England quite a few years ago.

I see a country from which hardly any students chose to take semesters on the European continent and which hardly engages in cultural or economic exchange with the rest of Europe other than having it`s hoolingans rought up some Belgians, Germans and French people here and then.

Hooligans? Seriously? I can't comment on your view that English students don't spend time in Europe, I really wouldn't know. As for cultural or economic exchange... have you been to London (or England) at all in the last twenty years? I read recently that London is the 5th or 6th largest French city by population.

As for economic exchange...

Have a look around http://www.uktradeinfo.com and you'll see the UK's largest trading partner by far is the EU. Then consider the UK is a partner in such European businesses as Airbus and Eurofighter, one of the UK's largest energy companies is French, and several European national rail network operators are heavily invested in the privatised UK rail network, or the Anglo-French cooperation in nuclear energy.

I see a country whos culture, comedy and entertainment is pritty much built on ridiculing other cultures on the continent and looking down on them as infirior.

As Dante has said, in British humour just about anything is fair game. We are just as likely to laugh at ourselves as we are to laugh at other countries. It is perhaps quite ironic that you point this out, given I suspect the motivation of this list of criticisms is to denigrate the UK - something you've just accused the British of doing to others.

I see a country which has successfully managed to dismantle it`s diverse economy into a unstable service sectore based economy with hardly any manufacturing, through the idiotic decisions of it`s political leadership in the past 30 years, yet rather keeps moaning about other countries than fixing itself.

Manufacturing is interesting. Unlike West Germany, Britain never got the chance to completely rebuild its industry post-WW2 with somebody else's cheque book. British industry never truly recovered from WW2, it simply couldn't modernise given the nation had pretty much bankrupted itself fighting a global war. Throw in political mismanagement and ineptitude and by the time the 1970's rolled around most British heavy industry was increasingly uncompetitive in the new global market.

Having said that, there are still several key industries where the UK plays a leading role. I mentioned above Airbus and Eurofighter, where the UK is a major partner. Rolls Royce is one of the world's leading manufacturer's of aero engines. Indeed the UK's aerospace industry is the second or third largest in the world. The UK is a major manufacturer of cars, and car engines. The pharmaceuticals industry is also very strong in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy...United_Kingdom

Have a read... you might be surprised.

I see a country which accepts, justifies and follows every decision by the USA to the extent that one could even think that it was part of that union.

I presume you have been keeping up with current events? You may remember a few months ago the House of Commons voted against taking military action in Syria. This effectively put the brakes on any UK military involvement in Syria and pressured President Obama into doing the same thing. This kinds of makes your above observation look... well just plain wrong.

I see a country which had it`s primeminister and his cabinet lie the country into a bloody and costly war, yet those responsible have never been held accounable.

I'll agree with you 100% here.

I see a country which has no constitution and is technicaly still a theocracy with a monarch "appointed by god".

Yet remarkably stable throughout history compared to a great many of our European neighbours, your country included. This country has a very strong democratic tradition... everything from Magna Carta to being one of the first European nations to do away with absolute monarchy, to having the oldest parliament.

Not bad for a country with no written constitution and a monarch "appointed by god".


So in summary, I'd say your observations about my country are very mistaken, ill informed and misguided.

[selder]

Hence your strange idea that shipbuilding is dead my friend is just plain wrong. It will of course we dead in an independent Scotland, but thats another issue .

Well we will just have to agree to disagree then Dante, but please do not presume that I am the one who is wrong.

But their not doomed, i've already pointed out the UK has a commitment to build its own warships in the UK for Defense reasons.

Commitment? Is that some sort of official policy? You keep saying it but please show us where you are getting that idea from. I just can't believe you think anyone will agree based on you suggesting the 'UK has' some sort of 'a commitment'.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Selder, could you please source that commercial ship building is sufficient to maintain the industry in Scotland? I am assuming you at least recognise that the UK doesn't build it's warships in foreign countries?

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Well we will just have to agree to disagree then Dante, but please do not presume that I am the one who is wrong.



Commitment? Is that some sort of official policy? You keep saying it but please show us where you are getting that idea from. I just can't believe you think anyone will agree based on you suggesting the 'UK has' some sort of 'a commitment'.

That's fair enough my friend, but i just can't see how we as an Independent nation could have a competitive shipbuilding industry!

As to the UK's commitment to build it's own warships It quite literally is common knowledge and policiy:

a long standing UK Government policy commitment to have all warship and ‘warlike’ ship hulls built in the UK

http://www.navalshipbuilding.co.uk/n...me.asp?ID=HOM7

So you see my friend, we would lose out. And as to the commercial shipping, I see people point to examples like Norway, Germany and indeed the rUK... what the Independence camp don't seem to realize is that we'd be in direct competition with these countries, who have an established customer base, competitive pricing which i doubt we'll be able to compete with, let alone the Commercial Shipyards in Japan and South Korea (The worlds two top countries for shipbuilding).

"a sustainable shipbuilding capacity in the UK to build type 26 frigates…the purpose was to rationalise the business. We wanted BAE Systems to be a high performance yard when we got to Type 26. We wanted them to have reduced their overhead. The deal is predicated on them coming down to the equivalent overhead of one complex warship-building yard. It is for them to decide how they achieve that, whether it is with two yards building in Portsmouth and on the Clyde, or one yard. That is their decision.”

Also my friend i'm calling you out on this quote, the context i believe he was speaking of Scotland as part of the UK! Thus BAE would keep the shipyard open on the Clyde. If Scotland left, as i've sourced and has been stated in other sources several times then the UK would not buy from a foreign country like Scotland, nor would BAE build anything for them here.

Also you seem to be under the assumption that the Scottish government would nationalize the Ship building Industry for Scotland? (As it's highly unlikely private companies would choose to be based in Scotland, where as the rUK has as i said pre-existing clients, large contracts from the MoD, which Scotland won't be able to offer, and a far larger workforce and economic base). But i just can't see them being able to afford it, not with everything else my friend.