View Poll Results: How will or would you vote in a referendum for Scottish

Voters
644. You may not vote on this poll
  • I am Scottish - Yes

    24 3.73%
  • I am Scottish - No

    17 2.64%
  • I am from another part of the UK - Yes

    32 4.97%
  • I am from another part of the UK - No

    115 17.86%
  • I am from outside the UK - Yes

    260 40.37%
  • I am from outside the UK - No

    196 30.43%

Thread: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

  1. #2821

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Montrose View Post
    Currently a large enough minority do though, if we lose this referendum we wont go away. It will happen sooner or later.
    How is it fair or justified for a minority to try and keep a nation in constitutional limbo as they attempt to achieve their aims? By the same logic if Scotland became independent we should then keep having referendums to rejoin the union, if the rest of the UK would have us back......

    If I remember Alex Salmond himself said a referendum would be a once in a generation decision so around 25 years would be the soonest another could be held, if there is sufficient call for one.
    All your Kitty

  2. #2822

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Montrose View Post
    Currently a large enough minority do though, if we lose this referendum we wont go away. It will happen sooner or later.
    Not necessarily. If this referendum fails, independence is off the cards for decades. Unionism will have a huge democratic mandate for generations. You will be grey or bald by the time it is seriously spoke of again.

  3. #2823
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Bhopal, India
    Posts
    11,292

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I wonder, if this referendum fails, is there a chance of another one coming up soon?

    Clamour for independence is both low and high from place to place, as far as I have seen.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  4. #2824

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    No, zero chance. May I remind you that this is a democracy, and the people are sovereign? If they reject this measure pursuing it will be undemocratic for decades.

  5. #2825
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,996

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Currently a large enough minority do though, if we lose this referendum we wont go away. It will happen sooner or later.
    But it won't though my friend, the majority of us don't want it. maybe generations from now...though likely hood is future generations could even be more pro-uk than now!

    And selder my friend, i shall reply to you asap, i'm quite rushed currently and wouldnt wish to do you the dis-service of a half arsed reply, Its just Andy's point was quicker to counter first!

    Again I have to remind you Dante, that this referendum is for Scotland to become independent and when that happens the people of Scotland will answer all those questions. It is not up to Salmond or anyone else to answer them for me anyway. We know for a fact that Scotland can survive as an independent state, so the question of how we manage our affairs will be left to us to decide, not the yes campaign. All they have to do is produce viable alternatives to the status quo, then we can all make up our minds at the ballot box.
    Anyway I get the feeling that things will start to get interesting now with Holyrood about to break for summer. In fact last week Salmond mentioned in an interview that this was just "the phoney war. This is not the campaign”. In the mean time I would really like to here how we will be better together... instead of all this negativity, it really does feel more bitter than better.
    Never fear my friend, i haven't lost track of this, but i believe its one of the reasons beyond the economics as you and i have both discussed, people will look at it, and see dissension, which will naturally put them off. Its an inherent disadvantage of having such a coalition, when you look at the union camp the divides aren't nearly so prevalent.

    Also i believe the negativity isn't a bad thing per say. Actually its making people aware of the cons and possible pit falls, they can't just be ignored due to being critical, that would be a disaster wouldn't you say? We should be educated and informed on all aspects to make an informed decisions, the good with the bad- the Independence camp naturally won't speak of the disadvantages- indeed they haven't provided anything on that aspect, thus its up to the Union to do that job.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; June 29, 2013 at 04:43 PM.

  6. #2826

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    No, zero chance. May I remind you that this is a democracy, and the people are sovereign? If they reject this measure pursuing it will be undemocratic for decades.
    Even SNP has said this is at best a once a generation event. Even they will hold back on Independence talks for at least 20-30 years.

  7. #2827

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    Another referendum won't happen for a very long time. What, do you think there will be one every 5 years? No. I think this is the last chance for the foreseeable future for Scottish independence.
    During the Celtic tiger at one point, the most popular option in NI polls was to join the Republic, which beat unionism by several per cent. Unfortunately the global financial crisis happened before there was any political discourse on the subject outside of NI.

    In 20 years when the UK is in some kind of economic recession and the rest of the EU isn't, there will probably be even more talk of Scottish independence.
    Last edited by removeduser_4536284751384; June 30, 2013 at 11:46 AM.

  8. #2828
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Bhopal, India
    Posts
    11,292

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    To all those who are from Britain, would anyone care to tell me what the general population mood is about this referendum? Have there been any plebiscites there? Any significant reactions in England and Scotland? I am not from British Isles obviously, but I do wish to learn more about the situation.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  9. #2829
    The Great Montrose's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Paisley, Scotland
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    To all those who are from Britain, would anyone care to tell me what the general population mood is about this referendum? Have there been any plebiscites there? Any significant reactions in England and Scotland? I am not from British Isles obviously, but I do wish to learn more about the situation.
    Those of us who support independence like myself make up around 35 percent of the population just now.
    the dream will never die


    Robert Wishart, Bishop of Glasgow, 'the kingdom of Scotland is not held in tribute or homage to anyone save God alone.' - 1290.

  10. #2830

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Montrose View Post
    Those of us who support independence like myself make up around 35 percent of the population just now.
    Slight exaggeration, it's under a third of the people:

    http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...king-1-2924728

    So... miles off what is required for a serious challenge. I'm really happy to see the Yes campaign so doomed at such an advanced stage.

  11. #2831
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Seirios,a parallel space,at your right
    Posts
    10,727

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Well that came as no surprise.
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  12. #2832
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Bhopal, India
    Posts
    11,292

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I hope it goes peacefully, then. With a number this small, the only means the supporters might have is a full-blown revolution.

    But that's an old thing now.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  13. #2833

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    A few great articles I've come across over the weekend and this morning.

    The first - could Scotland defend itself as a small nation? The answer, looking at the Scandies, seems to be an obvious no.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-21628443

    So basically, Scotland would be unable to defend itself militarily based on the SNP's proposed military spending to match Denmark (also a state with a similar population) despite the fact the numbers involved (£2.5bn) are huge on a per capita basis.

    This leaves Scotland in a position where it must ingratiate itself to its neighbours for defence - the UK, NATO but ultimately the USA. We can see that this is the case, with the SNP dropping its opposition to NATO already (at the significant cost of two SMPs). Using the Danish example it means worse in the future - ignoring foreign nuclear presence within territorial waters, soldiers dying in foreign wars they have no control to influence policy over and ultimately the question - why even bother with independence if you are doomed to be a vassal state?

    Indeed an independent report has warned of the huge costs and job losses involved in setting up the independent Scotland's armed forces:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-23026827

    And two banking experts have advised Scotland to go for an independent currency, suggesting that even though this would be incredibly dangerous, Scotland would have no fiscal independence otherwise:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-22006400

  14. #2834
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,996

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    A very interesting post Ferrets, it rather backs up everything we've said thus far concerning monetary and military troubles, The uslessness of the proposed Scottish Armed forces and the fact that we'll lose jobs is something that will be quite a blow to the independence camp, who have thus far been assuring us no jobs will be lost- we'll be better off!...right. Especially as this paper is written with

    input from armed forces personnel, defence academics, former secretaries of defence and senior officials from Nato, UK MOD and the EU. It was chaired by Major-General Andrew Mackay who commanded a Task Force in Afghanistan and served in the army for 27 years.
    So people who actually know what their talking about...unlike i'm afraid the SNP proposals, who have no experience over military matters, or indeed creating one. I still cant believe they said job cuts wouldn't happen..and if they did they'd be negligible... again poor knowledge and research rears its head from the yes camp.

    I see very real risks to the people of Scotland, be it from the loss of jobs and the local economic impact that the inevitable removal of the Faslane naval base would bring, the huge costs necessary to start building the armed forces from afresh, the loss of access to sensitive intelligence materials and the inevitable dilution in the quality and number of the armed forces of this small island, which to date have had such a profound effect upon the course of world events."
    The report suggested that after independence Scotland would be more vulnerable to terrorist and cyber attack because it would need time to establish an intelligence body capable of dealing with these threats.
    Again here also is something that i don't believe the Yes camp has taken into account, it was actually brought up earlier in this thread too, the extreme costs, and whats more its more than just the basic grunts, modern warfare is complex and multi-tiered- Cyyber warfare? Just where would we as an independent country even begin to gain the experience needed to deal with these areas, without huge investment...ohh yeah and job losses...and issues with personnel retention...

    It amuses me too that the main argument of the SNP is that Britain is cutting back its military... while actually the SNP plans would lead to a military that even compared to a downsized UK one, would be in essence incapable of actually defending Scotland- no submarines or air force... issues with keeping experienced personnel (lets face it, the British Army will offer many more opportunities and chances for development and growth for a career soldier), and no real espionage service... Also the immense cost of setting all this up in the first place. AND wanting to be a member of NATO where you'd be expected to pull your weight, as Denmark (our model for military) are doing (who also admit they can't defend themselves either properly without US and NATO), thus again the SNP i see will be forced to back down of their anti-nuclear weapons policy (As you can be quite sure the US will make it a concession that we keep them here due to the strategic...and remote location guarding the north sea pass).

    I foresee too SNP defense budgets sky rocketing to try and cope with creating a modern effective military for our country- thus higher taxes, and so again we come back to myself and other Scots bearing and increased burden. No wonder only a small minority of Scots support independence! And i wont even go into the whole Finance problems which has been touted before by us here and now it seems experts agree . Rant over my friends! I'm merely annoyed currently my opinions have seemingly been proven right on the fantasy planning and ideas of the Independence camp, though the SNP particularly, their out of their depth her so much.

  15. #2835

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I'm convinced now that Scotland should remain in the Union and instead push for a more federalist state where they are more or less separate states with the same overall central authority, currency, and military. (England, Wales, and Cornwall should all have their own Parliaments as well) Guys, just let it go. As bad as you think you are being treated by London, just imagine how bad it will be from Brussels. Unless you have a way to truly improve your status from Edinburgh and not another outside authority with even more undemocratic tendencies, then just try to improve things with what you have now. Please don't become Ireland.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; July 01, 2013 at 05:06 AM.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  16. #2836

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    The problem with the federalist argument is that it means giving the Scottish Government fiscal responsibility, and they actively resist that because they know it would mean forcing them to make responsible decisions and cuts!

  17. #2837
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,996

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    This is something i believe should be looked into for the benefit of all parties my friend, though i would just say Wales does have its own Parliament too (In fact i would point to them, as an example how those in Scotland wishing for greater Independence should look to, they have effectively revived and maintained Welsh as a separate and official langue, whether you agree with it and its political and financial implications or not, that's impressive, while also negotiating within the current framework for increased autonomy over their own finances and internal policy- and they are even more integrated with the UK than Scotland was in the first! Thus they had no need for referendums which looks more and more to be a rather large defeat for the ruling nationalist (civic that is) party).

    The ironic thing being that It's England without a Parliament for itself, meaning (and i can totally understand their frustration), that Scottish, Welsh and Irish MP's can make decisions which effect the English, but the English can't make Decisions within our own Scottish parliament, or wales. Hence why i believe a Federal UK might be a fairer and better option. Though this would be a long and complex process i'm sure, its worth investing in, not some independence movement, that's not even supported by the majority (and looks never to be) and would result in a worse off Scotland anyway. The other options are worth more than this if they would be looked at.

    Also a question to those in the know, Does anyone know how much this referendum is costing the UK? (and thus the taxpayer?) I'd be interested to know, so far i'd assumed due to the restrictions on budgets it would be minimal, but i glanced over something recently that stated it may be substantial due to abuses of funds by both sides? Not sure if anyone else has seen that somewhere, will try and find the article.

  18. #2838

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    The first - could Scotland defend itself as a small nation? The answer, looking at the Scandies, seems to be an obvious no.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-21628443

    So basically, Scotland would be unable to defend itself militarily based on the SNP's proposed military spending to match Denmark (also a state with a similar population) despite the fact the numbers involved (£2.5bn) are huge on a per capita basis.

    This leaves Scotland in a position where it must ingratiate itself to its neighbours for defence - the UK, NATO but ultimately the USA. We can see that this is the case, with the SNP dropping its opposition to NATO already (at the significant cost of two SMPs). Using the Danish example it means worse in the future - ignoring foreign nuclear presence within territorial waters, soldiers dying in foreign wars they have no control to influence policy over and ultimately the question - why even bother with independence if you are doomed to be a vassal state?
    Defend itself from whom? If by "defence" you're talking about winning zero-sum games in international relations, the UK is already too small and the EU is the only effective vehicle available to Scotland, whether it is part of the UK or not. That is one of the main reasons the EU was created. NATO is irrelevant in things like the current EU-USA trade negotiations, the American spying proves that America is out only to look after itself and only cares about its fellow NATO countries when it is convenient.

    I don't know why you are comparing Scotland to Denmark and not the infinitely more similar Ireland. We are not a member of NATO and our tiny army only goes abroad on security council sanctioned peacekeeping. Islamic terrorists do not attack us because of that. NATO creates those kind of security risks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    I'm convinced now that Scotland should remain in the Union and instead push for a more federalist state where they are more or less separate states with the same overall central authority, currency, and military. (England, Wales, and Cornwall should all have their own Parliaments as well) Guys, just let it go. As bad as you think you are being treated by London, just imagine how bad it will be from Brussels. Unless you have a way to truly improve your status from Edinburgh and not another outside authority with even more undemocratic tendencies, then just try to improve things with what you have now. Please don't become Ireland.
    I don't think Scotland is being treated badly by the UK. But on the democracy point, less than half of UK legislators are elected. All European legislators are. People like to claim the EU is somehow exploiting countries in financial difficulty, but the EU is more popular in Ireland now than it is in any other Eurozone country, and I think we are one of the countries most open to further political integration.

    I've also heard British people complaining that people like Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley are MPs. Sure, they have done some terrible things, but they were elected. So has the Queen, and I don't remember electing her.
    Last edited by removeduser_4536284751384; July 01, 2013 at 06:36 AM.

  19. #2839
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,996

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I don't know why you are comparing Scotland to Denmark and not the infinitely more similar Ireland. We are not a member of NATO and our tiny army only goes abroad on security council sanctioned peacekeeping. Islamic terrorists do not attack us because of that. NATO creates those kind of security risks.
    Firstly my friend, the comparison is because the SNP is holding up Denmark as a model for any future Scottish military. Also we do get attacked, remember the attempted bombing of Glasgow airport? Also surely its very short-sighted to not plan for any possible future threats? If nothing else the modern military conflicts have proven that circumstances can change very fast. Also to be part of NATO (As Independantists have said they would be i remind you), NATO will expect certain security obligations to be fulfilled. One of these is expeditionary forces and defense of member states- we'll have to hold up our end, and the creation of not just a military but ALSO a secret service, counter-espionage force and cybewarfare departments will be massive investments- On our own we don't have the experience or infrastructure for this, thus the defense budget predicted will rocket out of proportion- its very badly researched really.

    Also my friend the main point- Loss of Jobs, The SNP and other Yes campists have stated that these would be negligible, but even the kind of military your touting would lead to significant job cuts, thus more unemployed, more strain on an independent Scotland's tax system- and so taxes will rise beyond those we currently pay to the UK, in fact some members on here have advocated that this will happen who support independence as its'growing pains', yet the fact remains, we'll be worse off independent economically. So why bother?

    EDIT: Also my friend, i would like to apologize as i assumed you were Scottish yourself! I misread your reply! My bad, so just treat this instead of a counter-point as an issue as to why the comparison was made. Ironically i saw your name, yet totally didn't think anything of it!

  20. #2840

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    Firstly my friend, the comparison is because the SNP is holding up Denmark as a model for any future Scottish military. Also we do get attacked, remember the attempted bombing of Glasgow airport?
    That was motivated by the UK's involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq, and if Scotland wasn't part of that, it wouldn't be a target.
    Also to be part of NATO (As Independantists have said they would be i remind you), NATO will expect certain security obligations to be fulfilled. One of these is expeditionary forces and defense of member states- we'll have to hold up our end, and the creation of not just a military but ALSO a secret service, counter-espionage force and cybewarfare departments will be massive investments- On our own we don't have the experience or infrastructure for this, thus the defense budget predicted will rocket out of proportion- its very badly researched really.
    Only four NATO members, America, Estonia, Greece and the UK, actually meet NATO spending targets.

    Also my friend the main point- Loss of Jobs, The SNP and other Yes campists have stated that these would be negligible, but even the kind of military your touting would lead to significant job cuts, thus more unemployed, more strain on an independent Scotland's tax system- and so taxes will rise beyond those we currently pay to the UK, in fact some members on here have advocated that this will happen who support independence as its'growing pains', yet the fact remains, we'll be worse off independent economically. So why bother?
    You can't justify army expansion by claiming it creates jobs. Soldiers are paid by the state, a lot more than they would be paid if they were on social welfare. Unemployed, they cost less and will gradually shrink as they find new work.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •