View Poll Results: How will or would you vote in a referendum for Scottish

Voters
644. You may not vote on this poll
  • I am Scottish - Yes

    24 3.73%
  • I am Scottish - No

    17 2.64%
  • I am from another part of the UK - Yes

    32 4.97%
  • I am from another part of the UK - No

    115 17.86%
  • I am from outside the UK - Yes

    260 40.37%
  • I am from outside the UK - No

    196 30.43%

Thread: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

  1. #2021
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    17,268

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    And why Scotland as a whole is part of the UK at first hand?
    Because the UK has the right of territorial integrity.

    But were you honestly suggesting that? Do i have to explain how much of a horrible idea that would be? Just allowing random spots of Scotland to be free and independent?

    When i was suggesting pro-Unionist areas be allowed to remain in the UK, i didn't want random spots of areas that would be considered the UK in an area surrounded by free Scotland. That is retarded.
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  2. #2022
    Aymer de Valence's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere along The Pilgrim's Way.....
    Posts
    4,270

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    We get it. You don't like Scottish people but you're hurt we're leaving. You'll still have Wales and NI to maintain your superiority complex.
    You feel that you have the authority to speak on behalf of every citizen eligible to vote in this referendum by saying 'we're leaving', and you say that I have a superiority complex? Good lord, sir. Last time I looked, the independence camp was still the minority (unfortunately). If you do succeed, there's no running back to England and our money when things go wrong!
    Cry God for Harry, England and Saint George!

  3. #2023
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Seirios,a parallel space,at your right
    Posts
    10,727

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Because the UK has the right of territorial integrity.
    Apart from not an appropriate answer of my question(My question was how Scotland as a whole was decided to be part of the union.), how UK has the right of territorial integrity and a supposed pro-independence Scotland has not?

    But were you honestly suggesting that? Do i have to explain how much of a horrible idea that would be? Just allowing random spots of Scotland to be free and independent?

    When i was suggesting pro-Unionist areas be allowed to remain in the UK, i didn't want random spots of areas that would be considered the UK in an area surrounded by free Scotland. That is retarded.
    Lets say in respective votes in the referendum Lothian and SouthWest of Scotland (The lowlands in general) want to be independent (where the majority of the population lives), Orkney islands in union, Angus independent, St Andrews in union, North of Scotland in union.
    What you are suggesting is not a "retarded" version of the entity that will exist?
    Isn't that a patchy impractical entity which reflects the region's votes?
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  4. #2024
    The Great Montrose's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Paisley, Scotland
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    And why Scotland as a whole is part of the UK at first hand?
    It is ridiculous for a referendum to suggest a split of the country to Unionist and independence regions, parts of UK and independent areas.
    Apart from being impractical, democracy via the rule of majority vote passes legislations and in this legal framework, applied in the majority if not all the procedures.
    Besides the terms of the referrendum have been set.
    As for the West Virginia example is invalid.Virginia was a state part of the confederation not a nation-state like Scotland.
    Thank you.
    the dream will never die


    Robert Wishart, Bishop of Glasgow, 'the kingdom of Scotland is not held in tribute or homage to anyone save God alone.' - 1290.

  5. #2025
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    17,268

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Apart from not an appropriate answer of my question(My question was how Scotland as a whole was decided to be part of the union.), how UK has the right of territorial integrity and a supposed pro-independence Scotland has not?
    Because Scotland isn't an independent country and the UK is? you realize territorial integrity only applies to sovereign countries? You can't claim Scotland has territorial integrity when it is not a sovereign country.

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Lets say in respective votes in the referendum Lothian and SouthWest of Scotland (The lowlands in general) want to be independent (where the majority of the population lives), Orkney islands in union, Angus independent, St Andrews in union, North of Scotland in union.
    What you are suggesting is not a "retarded" version of the entity that will exist?
    Is the Orkney's smack dab right in the middle of Scotland? And by North Of Scotland, do you mean Northern Scotland?

    And the problem there is St.Andrews. But like other posters have said, in the event of this referendum succeeding problems like that would be ironed out in negotiations Scotland wouldn't became an independent country suddenly after the referendum shows majority support for a Free Scotland.


    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Isn't that a patchy impractical entity which reflects the region's votes?
    Not the one i was referring to, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    As for the West Virginia example is invalid. Virginia was a state part of the confederation not a nation-state like Scotland.
    So what? The government type Virginia was part of and the fact Scotland is a nation-state is irrelevant.

    My point was that in the case of Virginia they seceded and joined the Confederacy even though parts of their population was pro-Union. This lead to part of Virginia breaking off, forming their own state and joining the Union.

    Point being it was a bad idea and lead to part of their state breaking off. Why can't the same happen to Scotland?
    Last edited by Vanoi; March 25, 2013 at 04:36 PM.
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  6. #2026
    Derpy Hooves's Avatar Bombs for Muffins
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    My flagship, the Litany of Truth, spreading DESPAIR across the galaxy
    Posts
    13,399

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    And why Scotland as a whole is part of the UK at first hand?
    It is ridiculous for a referendum to suggest a split of the country to Unionist and independence regions, parts of UK and independent areas.
    Apart from being impractical, democracy via the rule of majority vote passes legislations and in this legal framework, applied in the majority if not all the procedures.
    Besides the terms of the referrendum have been set.
    As for the West Virginia example is invalid.Virginia was a state part of the confederation not a nation-state like Scotland.
    ​I doubt the Virginians at the time would agree with you



  7. #2027
    Menumorut's Avatar Ducenarius
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where I want
    Posts
    910

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE SCOTLAND from the english tyranny and GOD won't save the queen, everybody dies eventually

    »MY GRAPHIC WORKSHOP« UNDER THE PARONAGE OF G☼D HIMSELF »MY ROMEII FAN ART«

  8. #2028
    Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    1,736

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    I dont think Cornish Independence is a pathetic idea and I dont see the reason to label it as such.

    And Bobz there are always going to be some bad politicians in a party but luckily the SNP have some brilliant ones aswell like Salmond or MacAskill. And some excellent Mp's such as Robertson, Wishart and MacNeil.
    As someone who is Cornish, I feel obliged to tell you that there is seriously not a Cornish independence movement, and Cornwall really could not survive as an independent country. What does exist is a desire for greater attention, and possibly local powers, to help a county that is one of the most economically disadvantaged in the country.

    As for your second point, the member in question was Humza Yousaf, whom is essentially Scottish Parliament's equivalent of a foreign secretary and hence a rather senior member of the SNP. You keep the bad members on the backbench's, and if that's what the SNP are actually doing well they are in trouble. He's hardly the only SNP member to come so unstuck during an interview either, I recall the deputy first minister falling flat on her face during the revelation Scotland would not automatically join the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æthelstan View Post
    Cornwall.....a country? Can you seriously comprehend that? What do they have to offer the world but seagulls and wizards!? If they think they can go it alone too, then fine by me. The south-east is all I care about.
    Don't forget pasties and cider

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    And why Scotland as a whole is part of the UK at first hand?
    It is ridiculous for a referendum to suggest a split of the country to Unionist and independence regions, parts of UK and independent areas.
    Apart from being impractical, democracy via the rule of majority vote passes legislations and in this legal framework, applied in the majority if not all the procedures.
    Besides the terms of the referrendum have been set.
    As for the West Virginia example is invalid.Virginia was a state part of the confederation not a nation-state like Scotland.
    No, that example is perfectly valid. Scotland is not a nation-state, it's a sub-division of an existing country much like Virginia was. I'm not saying that it should be split up into a hundred different enclaves depending on how each ward voted, but if large areas want to remain part of the UK in the event of a majority yes vote they should be perfectly entitled too. Also, the referendum is not legally binding. It is merely a yes/no vote, with the actual independence negotiations to be carried out after. As I said before, the UK could simply not let areas that don't want to leave secede.

  9. #2029
    The Great Montrose's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Paisley, Scotland
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Bobz I didnt realise Humza Yusef was the man in question, he is actually a bright young politician and one to watch for the future in my opinion. Maybe a future SNP leader.
    the dream will never die


    Robert Wishart, Bishop of Glasgow, 'the kingdom of Scotland is not held in tribute or homage to anyone save God alone.' - 1290.

  10. #2030
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Seirios,a parallel space,at your right
    Posts
    10,727

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Because Scotland isn't an independent country and the UK is? you realize territorial integrity only applies to sovereign countries? You can't claim Scotland has territorial integrity when it is not a sovereign country.
    Indeed that's why i said "supposed pro-independence Scotland=a Scotland that voted to be independent and therefore a sovereign nation state."If Scotland voted to be independent then why integrity not be applied to her as you argue about that for UK.This is an oxymoron Vanoi.
    Also you didn't answer this:My question was how Scotland as a whole was decided to be part of the union.



    Is the Orkney's smack dab right in the middle of Scotland?
    Nope
    And by North Of Scotland, do you mean Northern
    Indeed the NorthWestern areas,North and Inverness.

    And the problem there is St.Andrews. But like other posters have said, in the event of this referendum succeeding problems like that would be ironed out in negotiations Scotland wouldn't became an independent country suddenly after the referendum shows majority support for a Free Scotland.
    And why the Scottish government which will now have the supposed yes referendum vote for independent country start to negotiate its integrity?
    Isn't that again out of the context of referendum as there is no providence for this to take place?

    Not the one i was referring to, no.
    But this can be a possibility as well.Therefore it would be inevitable to have this patchy entity, representative of regional no or yes win.


    So what? The government type Virginia was part is and the fact Scotland is a nation-state is irrelevant.
    Well they are not comparable entities.Scotland, a previously independent nation state formed a pack with another nation state in a union.Virginia already part of the union
    West Virginia was originally part of the British Virginia Colony (from 1607 to 1776) and the western part of the state of Virginia (from 1776 to 1863). Long discontented with electoral malapportionment and underrepresentation in the state legislature, its residents became sharply divided over the issue of secession from the Union. Residents of western and northern counties set up a separate government under Francis Pierpont in 1861, which they called the "restored" government. Most voted to separate from Virginia, and the new state was admitted to the Union in 1863. In 1864 a state constitutional convention drafted a constitution, which was ratified by the legislature without putting it to popular vote. West Virginia abolished slavery and temporarily disfranchised men who had held Confederate office or fought for the Confederacy.
    So you have people who arbitrary formed a new entity and voted for the ratification of their creation and then proceeded to the Union. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_virginia
    My point was that in the case of Virginia they seceded and joined the Confederacy even though parts of their population was pro-Union. This lead to part of Virginia breaking off, forming their own state and joining the Union.
    Legality

    The constitutionality of the new state was achieved when the Unionist government of Virginia approved the division. The question of the addition of two counties came before the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Virginia v. West Virginia, 78 U.S. 39 (1871).[17] Berkeley and Jefferson counties lying on the Potomac east of the mountains, in 1863, with the consent of the Reorganized government of Virginia voted in favor of annexation to West Virginia. Many men absent in the Confederate army when the vote was taken refused to acknowledge the transfer upon their return. The Virginia General Assembly repealed the act of cession and in 1866 brought suit against West Virginia asking the court to declare the two counties a part of Virginia. Meanwhile Congress on March 10, 1866 passed a joint resolution recognizing the transfer. The Supreme Court decided in favor of West Virginia, and there has been no further question.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_West_Virginia
    Again i can't see any similarity here.We have a state in a civil war situation, seceding in order to take sides.


    Point being it was a bad idea and lead to part of their state breaking off. Why can't the same happen to Scotland?
    Because they are unrelated situations.Unless you suggest people of Scotland should became separatists, form their own representative body/government and demand a referendum or arbitrary secede and join the UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobz View Post
    No, that example is perfectly valid. Scotland is not a nation-state, it's a sub-division of an existing country much like Virginia was. I'm not saying that it should be split up into a hundred different enclaves depending on how each ward voted, but if large areas want to remain part of the UK in the event of a majority yes vote they should be perfectly entitled too. Also, the referendum is not legally binding. It is merely a yes/no vote, with the actual independence negotiations to be carried out after. As I said before, the UK could simply not let areas that don't want to leave secede.
    I strongly disagree.Scots are a nation Virginians are not.That's a big difference concerning the paradigm stated by the poster.Scotland is a state in union, forming the UK along with the rest of the UK but it has existed before the union as independent and sovereign state.West Virginia was legalized by the Union and accepted as part of it.Read the quotes from wiki.

    The United Kingdom is a controversial example of a nation state, due to its "countries within a country" status. The UK is a unitary state formed initially by the merger of two independent kingdoms, the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland, but the Treaty of Union (1707) that set out the agreed terms has ensured the continuation of distinct features of each state, including separate legal systems and separate national churches.

    In 2003, the British Government described the United Kingdom as "countries within a country".[22] While the Office for National Statistics and others describe the United Kingdom as a "nation state",[23][24] others, including a then Prime Minister, describe it as a "multinational state",[25][26][27] and the term Home Nations is used to describe the four national teams that represent the four nations of the United Kingdom (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales).[28]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state
    Last edited by neoptolemos; March 25, 2013 at 05:15 PM.
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  11. #2031
    Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    1,736

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    I strongly disagree.Scots are a nation Virginians are not.That's a big difference concerning the paradigm stated by the poster.Scotland is a state in union, forming the UK along with the rest of the UK but it has existed before the union as independent and sovereign state.West Virginia was legalized by the Union and accepted as part of it.Read the quotes from wiki.
    Scotland is not a nation-state, it does not meet the definition of one. It is utterly irrelevant what Scotland and Virginia used to be, what matters is a hypothetically decision that could be taken in the future. Scotland could very well follow the example of Virginia and be divided, countries have been divided before and will be divided again.

  12. #2032
    Comes Domesticorum
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Athenai
    Posts
    33,211

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Virginia isn't a nation-state, but nation-states aren't the only types of countries out there. Virginia, like Scotland, was an independent state before becoming part of Union, though the type of union it has formed with the other states is different than the one Scotland formed with the other former countries of the United Kingdom.

  13. #2033

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    Scotland is one country with one people.
    Yeah you can tell when you look at how united Glasgow is. And of course an Edinburgh banker could have a fluent Gaelic conversation with a guy from Stornoway. Continue with the hypocrisy.

  14. #2034
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    21,467

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brittanicus View Post
    I

    Free from what exactly? Perhaps you should also look up the meaning of imperialism in the dictionary as well, because I dont think it means what you think it means.
    free from the English of course; England holds unfair advantage in how the UK operates, rendering polities like Scotland subservient to London, not unlike how NATO makes its member nations subservient to Pentagon planners.

    A Free Scotland would lead to a better life for Scots, especially without austerity or debt burdens being forced onto the Scots.

    also, London must be punished for its transgressions against its neighbours, namely Europe. As Dick Cheney once termed the English 'perfidious albion'
    Last edited by Exarch; March 26, 2013 at 01:08 AM.

  15. #2035
    Tiberios's Avatar Le Paysan Soleil
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Cimbria
    Posts
    12,702

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    Because they vote against independence shouldnt mean that those regions remain part of the UK. This is a matter for all of Scotland as a whole. As I've already pointed out above that you cant have Scotland split into regions some independent some not with loads of borders. If then "Border unionists" or something like that wish to try and get back into the U.K then I would accept that after all everyone deserves the right to self determination, but Scotland will vote in this referendum as a country not regions.
    As Their Law said, this can be applied to the UK as well. Granted, it is easier for Scotland to vote as a whole and not as regions.

  16. #2036

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    free from the English of course; England holds unfair advantage in how the UK operates,
    And here we start exposing how little Exarch knows of UK politics. Or any politics. Again.

    What unfair advantage?

    rendering polities like Scotland subservient to London,
    How is Scotland subservient to London?

    not unlike how NATO makes its member nations subservient to Pentagon planners.
    Conspiracy theory.

    A Free Scotland would lead to a better life for Scots, especially without austerity or debt burdens being forced onto the Scots.
    Scotland would have to take its share of UK debt if made independent.

    also, London must be punished for its transgressions against its neighbours, namely Europe. As Dick Cheney once termed the English 'perfidious albion'
    What transgressions?

  17. #2037
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Shambhala
    Posts
    13,082

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Æthelstan View Post
    If you do succeed, there's no running back to England and our money when things go wrong!
    I do not think England has loads of cash to throw around.Maybe Scotland is jumping off the sinking boat.


    How is Scotland subservient to London?
    As if you do not know..

  18. #2038
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    17,268

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Indeed that's why i said "supposed pro-independence Scotland=a Scotland that voted to be independent and therefore a sovereign nation state."If Scotland voted to be independent then why integrity not be applied to her as you argue about that for UK.This is an oxymoron Vanoi.
    Also you didn't answer this:My question was how Scotland as a whole was decided to be part of the union.
    Can you re-phrase the question then? Its hard to answer it as it is with its bad grammar.


    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    And why the Scottish government which will now have the supposed yes referendum vote for independent country start to negotiate its integrity?
    Isn't that again out of the context of referendum as there is no providence for this to take place?
    Do i have to again mention the people who will not want to be part of a free Scotland and instead want to be part of the UK? Are their wishes to be ignored?

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    But this can be a possibility as well.Therefore it would be inevitable to have this patchy entity, representative of regional no or yes win.
    It won't be a possibility because no one is going to accept in the case of a no referendum an independent Scotland divided into areas of pro-independence. You would have a country that looks like Swaziland which again is something to be prevented.

    Not everything in Scotland is owned by Scotland. A there would have to be negotiations to prevent something like this form happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Well they are not comparable entities.Scotland, a previously independent nation state formed a pack with another nation state in a union.Virginia already part of the union
    So you have people who arbitrary formed a new entity and voted for the ratification of their creation and then proceeded to the Union. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_virginia



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_West_Virginia
    Again i can't see any similarity here.We have a state in a civil war situation, seceding in order to take sides.
    Because its all irrelevant. I gave you the reasoning earlier and you ignored it. I'll explain it again.

    Virginia seceded and joined the Confederacy. Some of it population did not support this and were pro-Union. They separated form Virginia to form their own state in 1863.

    Similar Scotland where even if they gain independence, parts of their population would still be pro-Union and want to start part of that union instead of being in a new country. Like West Virginia.

    Even the little quotes you posted support my position. In your last quote about legality is also irrelevant. The pro-Union government who controlled Virginia in 1871 of course would approve a new pro-Union state. Ask the Confederates who were in charge in 1861 when this happened if they would accept a West Virginian state. They would say no.



    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Because they are unrelated situations.Unless you suggest people of Scotland should became separatists, form their own representative body/government and demand a referendum or arbitrary secede and join the UK?
    Well not in the since of the Confederacy, but pro-Union areas re-joining the UK is not an impossible idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    I strongly disagree.Scots are a nation Virginians are not.That's a big difference concerning the paradigm stated by the poster.Scotland is a state in union, forming the UK along with the rest of the UK but it has existed before the union as independent and sovereign state.West Virginia was legalized by the Union and accepted as part of it.Read the quotes from wiki.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state
    Again, they were accepted after the Civil War was over by a pro-Union government. If Virginia wans't being occupied by federal forces and its government basically taken over by pro-Union supports, then they would have never accepted the division of West Virginia.

    Again, look towards the government who was originally in control when West Virginia wanted to form their own state. The Confederates would have never accepted the division.
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  19. #2039
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    21,467

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post

    How is Scotland subservient to London?
    please, are we going to pretend Scotland is some equal partner in the everyday activities of the UK?


    Scotland would have to take its share of UK debt if made independent.
    seems to me, scotland and her oil have been paying more than their fair share because of english leaders and a more-than-generous policy towards immigrants which Cameron is only now trying to rescind.

    why don't you just admit that you don't want Scotland to go (which would be the right thing for the Scottish people) because you like the idea of England lording it over everyone else in the 'united kingdom'. besides, england has a **** ton of debt and lacklustre growth, as we saw in its credit downgrade; why the hell do you think that's a good thing to foist upon the Scottish people? why should able and tax paying scots have to fork over their birthright just to subsidise english profligacy?
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; March 26, 2013 at 05:12 PM. Reason: insulting others

  20. #2040
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Seirios,a parallel space,at your right
    Posts
    10,727

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobz View Post
    Scotland is not a nation-state, it does not meet the definition of one. It is utterly irrelevant what Scotland and Virginia used to be, what matters is a hypothetically decision that could be taken in the future. Scotland could very well follow the example of Virginia and be divided, countries have been divided before and will be divided again.
    Again I disagree.The Kingdom of Scotland could easily fit into the definition of a nation state which entered the union with the kingdom of England.
    As for the West Virginia example you are keen to reproduce, I have just pointed out to you that an arbitrary secession, during a civil war period which had to be legitimized afterwards is not even close to what is happening to Scotland at the time being.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Can you re-phrase the question then? Its hard to answer it as it is with its bad grammar.
    Choose your version
    And why Scotland as a whole is part of the UK at first hand?
    My question was how Scotland as a whole was decided to be part of the union
    You are arguing about territorial integrity of UK when my question is simple.
    Why and how Scotland entered the union as a whole country?
    Do i have to again mention the people who will not want to be part of a free Scotland and instead want to be part of the UK? Are their wishes to be ignored?
    They have the right to vote for no and make a campaign for their cause.This is how referendum works and the rule of majority is quite simple and clear.Win the majority of Scottish people and shut the SNP up.The referendum was set for the future of the whole of Scotland it has nothing to do with who is about for an independent people and who wants to remain in UK.
    The SNP is in goverment because Scottish people gave him their vote at first place after all.Too bad for them if you ask me, but that's how democracy works.

    It won't be a possibility because no one is going to accept in the case of a no referendum an independent Scotland divided into areas of pro-independence. You would have a country that looks like Swaziland which again is something to be prevented.
    I agree with that and i can't see any point for that.
    What is more rational is the Scottish people to demand a new representation for their state which would work for the re unification (in the hypothetical scenario of independence)

    Not everything in Scotland is owned by Scotland. A there would have to be negotiations to prevent something like this form happening.
    Well i believe whatever falls under the jurisdiction of Scottish government at the moment will remain under independent Scotland.
    Because its all irrelevant. I gave you the reasoning earlier and you ignored it. I'll explain it again.

    Virginia seceded and joined the Confederacy. Some of it population did not support this and were pro-Union. They separated form Virginia to form their own state in 1863.

    Similar Scotland where even if they gain independence, parts of their population would still be pro-Union and want to start part of that union instead of being in a new country. Like West Virginia.
    W Virginia seceded arbitrarily not by any legal norm or within a framework of a referendum or even a provision of Virginian constitution,they formed their own representative government and institutions and they joined the Union while the rest of Virginia left the union to join the confederacy.These are unrelated situations.
    Scotland is going to vote in a referendum which will represent Scottish people's choice (by the rule of majority) for the future of their country as a whole.What the pro Union population should do is to try to work, within Scotland to1) Demand regional referendums for the cause you are suggesting
    2)Demand a new government ( via elections )which will work for the Union
    3)A constitution which will set a legal framework for the resolution of Scotland to independent and union areas which will then form the independent state and the Scottish parts of UK.
    As you can see it is a really complex issue and you won't easily find any similar example.

    [QUOTE]Even the little quotes you posted support my position. In your last quote about legality is also irrelevant. The pro-Union government who controlled Virginia in 1871 of course would approve a new pro-Union state. Ask the Confederates who were in charge in 1861 when this happened if they would accept a West Virginian state. They would say no.[/QUOTE
    ]Again, they were accepted after the Civil War was over by a pro-Union government. If Virginia wans't being occupied by federal forces and its government basically taken over by pro-Union supports, then they would have never accepted the division of West Virginia.Again, look towards the government who was originally in control when West Virginia wanted to form their own state. The Confederates would have never accepted the division.
    The legalization of W Virginia just underlines that W Virginia was an arbitrary formation that needed the ratification of a State court to remain a legal entity.And this because the Union and not the Confederacy won as you have admitted yourself.You had two unions, states within Unions, a state which was divided in civil war to join the union and the rest of it to join the confederation and the new entity legalized by the triumphed union.Again unrelated situations.
    Well not in the since of the Confederacy, but pro-Union areas re-joining the UK is not an impossible idea.
    I too agree is not impossible.As i ve explained earlier it would have been a tough task.
    If you ask me though, this is purely speculation because i reckon that Scotland remaining in the union is the most probable and rational result of the referendum.
    Last edited by neoptolemos; March 26, 2013 at 07:57 AM.
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •