View Poll Results: How will or would you vote in a referendum for Scottish

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  • I am Scottish - Yes

    24 3.73%
  • I am Scottish - No

    17 2.64%
  • I am from another part of the UK - Yes

    32 4.97%
  • I am from another part of the UK - No

    115 17.86%
  • I am from outside the UK - Yes

    260 40.37%
  • I am from outside the UK - No

    196 30.43%

Thread: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

  1. #2001
    The Great Montrose's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Their Law View Post
    Considering that all polls point at present point to a fairly divided Scottish population I don't think you can make a such a general statement. Anyway my question was not if you think it will happen, but what happens if it comes about. Would the SNP allow areas that wish to remain in the UK stay in the UK?
    Are there really any overly majority unionist areas? I don't really think so, and no the SNP would not allow them to remain in the U.K. Scotland is Scotland theres no divide like there was in Ireland. Plus it is very impractical to break up Scotland into areas and say here you guys vote on independence based on council areas and then we have some staying in the U.K and some not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Their Law View Post
    Ok so your basically suggesting the UK goes through what amounts to a constitutional crises every 10 years? That's not a viable long term solution.

    .
    Yes or something like it, maybe every 15,20 years
    the dream will never die


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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I hope the brave Scots get the freedom to rule themselves without a foreign power interfering in their business.Be not afraid.


    Last edited by John ''True Grit'' Wayne; March 25, 2013 at 12:38 PM.

  3. #2003

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    Plus it is very impractical to break up Scotland into areas
    The hypocrisy. Why is it impractical to break up Scotland but not the UK? Surely it is time for Lothian to stop hogging Aberdeenshire's oil wealth.
    Last edited by removeduser_487563287433; March 25, 2013 at 12:36 PM.

  4. #2004
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Scotland is one country with one people. The UK is 3 countries and a principality with 4 different peoples. I've fallen out with the Welsh after Friday and therefore I am calling them a principality

    Plus thats not my point, my point was that say West Renfrewshire votes for independence but East Renfrewshire doesnt. And all of the areas around East Renfrewshire vote for independence how is that going to work? It could be like that all across Scotland and you would have Scotland in bits.

    So no I dont think it is Hypocracy.

    Scotland is one country and shall vote as one country, for better or for worse.
    Last edited by The Great Montrose; March 25, 2013 at 01:28 PM.
    the dream will never die


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  5. #2005
    Their Law's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    Are there really any overly majority unionist areas? I don't really think so, and no the SNP would not allow them to remain in the U.K. Scotland is Scotland theres no divide like there was in Ireland. Plus it is very impractical to break up Scotland into areas and say here you guys vote on independence based on council areas and then we have some staying in the U.K and some not.
    We don't know what the break down of support would be until the actual referendum it's perfectly possible that you would get unionist and separatist regions.

    I'm interested as to how you square the fact that you are willing to partition a state such as the UK but not apply the same principle to Scotland. It seems a little hypocritical from this perspective as their is no practical difference.

    Yes or something like it, maybe every 15,20 years
    And you see no inherent problems in that? Have you considered the implications that might have on domestic politics? Essentially it would allow a third of the country to hold the state hostage every X number of years.


    Whilst not strictly related to Scotland's secession prospects. There's an interesting article in the BBC regarding a side effect of devolution:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21920010


    Whilst not anything concrete it's interesting to see some movement on this point. As it's something that does need to be addressed if the status quo remains.
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  6. #2006
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    Scotland is one country with one people. The UK is 3 countries and a principality with 4 different peoples. I've fallen out with the Welsh after Friday and therefore I am calling them a principality

    Plus thats not my point, my point was that say West Renfrewshire votes for independence but East Renfrewshire doesnt. And all of the areas around East Renfrewshire vote for independence how is that going to work? It could be like that all across Scotland and you would have Scotland in bits.

    So no I dont think it is Hypocracy.

    Scotland is one country and shall vote as one country, for better or for worse.
    It is hypocritical. You want the UK to be divided by making Scotland independent, but Scotland is somehow indivisible. Why is it that Scotland is somehow indivisbile when Britain is not?

    What if the southern parts of Scotland, those areas along the border with England vote to remain in the Union, should they be allowed to do so? Or does self determination only work one way.
    Last edited by Tiberios; March 25, 2013 at 01:41 PM.

  7. #2007
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberios View Post
    It is hypocritical. You want the UK to be divided by making Scotland independent, but Scotland is somehow indivisible. Why is it that Scotland is somehow indivisbile when Britain is not?

    What if the southern parts of Scotland, those areas along the border with England vote to remain in the Union, should they be allowed to do so? Or does self determination only work one way.
    Because they vote against independence shouldnt mean that those regions remain part of the UK. This is a matter for all of Scotland as a whole. As I've already pointed out above that you cant have Scotland split into regions some independent some not with loads of borders. If then "Border unionists" or something like that wish to try and get back into the U.K then I would accept that after all everyone deserves the right to self determination, but Scotland will vote in this referendum as a country not regions.
    the dream will never die


    Robert Wishart, Bishop of Glasgow, 'the kingdom of Scotland is not held in tribute or homage to anyone save God alone.' - 1290.

  8. #2008
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    Because they vote against independence shouldn't mean that those regions remain part of the UK. This is a matter for all of Scotland as a whole. As I've already pointed out above that you cant have Scotland split into regions some independent some not with loads of borders. If then "Border unionists" or something like that wish to try and get back into the U.K then I would accept that after all everyone deserves the right to self determination, but Scotland will vote in this referendum as a country not regions.

    But do you see the hypocrisy that's occurring, all you've said can be applied to the UK with equal validity.
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  9. #2009
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    So it is is "hypocrisy" for Scottish nation to claim independence through self-determination voting as a whole?
    This is the point of national referendum in practical terms, when with the Union act i reckon Scotland entered as a whole the union and not as bits.
    It is unfair to emphasize on that labelling andy's response as "hypocrisy" and moreover is like implying that the union is somehow flawed....
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberios View Post
    It is hypocritical. You want the UK to be divided by making Scotland independent, but Scotland is somehow indivisible. Why is it that Scotland is somehow indivisbile when Britain is not?

    What if the southern parts of Scotland, those areas along the border with England vote to remain in the Union, should they be allowed to do so? Or does self determination only work one way.
    Scotland is one country.The UK and Britain is not one country it is country's mixed together in a union.A union can be broken like a marriage but a country should not be divided.It is more tricky to do and often leads to violence and war.Scotland is voting on the Union and has a legal right to do so.

  11. #2011
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Scotland is voting on the Union and has a legal right to do so.
    Yet the English and Welsh have no say in this, apart from screaming and shouting. I don't think these pro-independence people realise that this referendum affects ALL of us on this island, for better or for worse. To be honest, the Scottish people will lose out either way....remain under England's leash, or go it alone and lick Germany's jack-boots.

    If Scotland actually manages to gain independence, then where next; Wales? Maybe even the pathetic idea of Cornish independence will spring up again.
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  12. #2012
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    Because they vote against independence shouldnt mean that those regions remain part of the UK. This is a matter for all of Scotland as a whole. As I've already pointed out above that you cant have Scotland split into regions some independent some not with loads of borders. If then "Border unionists" or something like that wish to try and get back into the U.K then I would accept that after all everyone deserves the right to self determination, but Scotland will vote in this referendum as a country not regions.
    Remember though that a yes vote in the referendum wouldn't be the end of it. Scotland would still have to actually negotiate it's independence from the UK, and if during the referendum and negotiations held afterwards it is abundantly clear that the borders regions and contiguous areas do not want to be part of an independent Scotland then the UK might very while not allow them to leave. The SNP don't have the power to force that.

    On another point, I was watching an interview with a SNP MSP on the Daily Politics earlier, and yet again he managed to completely ignore all facts and points held against him and continue to insist that everything would be fine with Scottish independence. Even after being called out for it, he still kept shouting over everyone else, refusing to actually debate the points. I really struggle to wonder how some of you can support these people.

  13. #2013
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    Well EdlStan,I think England should have their own vote on the union and also membership of Europe's failed EU project..
    I have seen most English people seem to want Scotland to feck off as they have it in their minds that they are paying taxes to Scots to be on welfare.
    Some feel they would be better off without N Ireland and Scotland dragging them down.So yes let everybody have a vote and let Canada and Australia have a vote on the Queen and membership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æthelstan View Post
    Yet the English and Welsh have no say in this, apart from screaming and shouting. I don't think these pro-independence people realise that this referendum affects ALL of us on this island, for better or for worse. To be honest, the Scottish people will lose out either way....remain under England's leash, or go it alone and lick Germany's jack-boots.

    If Scotland actually manages to gain independence, then where next; Wales? Maybe even the pathetic idea of Cornish independence will spring up again.
    Yes ze Germans are at the gates waiting to take over.Why is Cornish independence a pathetic idea and yet you want England to vote on their own future?Are the Welsh deserving of the right to vote..
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; March 25, 2013 at 02:38 PM. Reason: double post

  14. #2014
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I dont think Cornish Independence is a pathetic idea and I dont see the reason to label it as such.

    And Bobz there are always going to be some bad politicians in a party but luckily the SNP have some brilliant ones aswell like Salmond or MacAskill. And some excellent Mp's such as Robertson, Wishart and MacNeil.
    the dream will never die


    Robert Wishart, Bishop of Glasgow, 'the kingdom of Scotland is not held in tribute or homage to anyone save God alone.' - 1290.

  15. #2015
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    So it is is "hypocrisy" for Scottish nation to claim independence through self-determination voting as a whole?
    This is the point of national referendum in practical terms, when with the Union act i reckon Scotland entered as a whole the union and not as bits.
    It is unfair to emphasize on that labelling andy's response as "hypocrisy" and moreover is like implying that the union is somehow flawed....
    No, its unfair to force parts of Scotland's population to be part of a free Scotland when they want to remain part of the UK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  16. #2016
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    No, its unfair to force parts of Scotland's population to be part of a free Scotland when they want to remain part of the UK.
    But there are no overly unionist areas in Scotland like in Northern Ireland. The Borders are more likely to be unionists but that doesnt mean that a reasonable amount of the population there dont want independence. Scotland is a country, it will vote as one. Whether we become independent or not. You cant break it up into regions as I've already said. And no its not hypocracy because Scotland is a country, whereas the UK is not. It is 4 countries.
    the dream will never die


    Robert Wishart, Bishop of Glasgow, 'the kingdom of Scotland is not held in tribute or homage to anyone save God alone.' - 1290.

  17. #2017
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I have seen most English people seem to want Scotland to feck off as they have it in their minds that they are paying taxes to Scots to be on welfare.
    Some feel they would be better off without N Ireland and Scotland dragging them down
    They are, and this is why I clearly said above that they are dead-weight which need to be cut loose so England can move forward. At the moment we have the bitter Scots and the desperate Northern Irish unionists holding us back (Scottish unionists are no better). Wales' turn will come soon enough aswell, hopefully.

    Why is Cornish independence a pathetic idea and yet you want England to vote on their own future?Are the Welsh deserving of the right to vote..
    Cornwall.....a country? Can you seriously comprehend that? What do they have to offer the world but seagulls and wizards!? If they think they can go it alone too, then fine by me. The south-east is all I care about.

    Scottish independence won't happen unfortunately; it's all just a ruse to draw our attention away from pushing properly for an in/out EU referendum....

    No, its unfair to force parts of Scotland's population to be part of a free Scotland when they want to remain part of the UK.
    Tough. That's majority vote for you
    Last edited by Aymer de Valence; March 25, 2013 at 02:56 PM.
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  18. #2018
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    But there are no overly unionist areas in Scotland like in Northern Ireland. The Borders are more likely to be unionists but that doesnt mean that a reasonable amount of the population there dont want independence. Scotland is a country, it will vote as one. Whether we become independent or not. You cant break it up into regions as I've already said. And no its not hypocracy because Scotland is a country, whereas the UK is not. It is 4 countries.
    This is the dumbest idea i really have ever heard. The Confederates tried the same thing with Virginia during the Civil War. Guess what? Not all of Virginia supported the Confederacy. A big part of it was pro-Union. That area is now known as West Virginia.

    You can break up Scotland into regions. You however just don't want it to happen. Any areas with a solid majority of Unionists should have the option of remaining as part of the UK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  19. #2019

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by ☩Lord Inquisitor Derpy Hooves☩ View Post
    ​More like a deadbeat husband.
    I cant see any purpose to this post other than a bigoted attempt to paint Scotland as a deadbeat country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æthelstan View Post
    Oh I don't know, Scotland???????????? No more free prescriptions and an end to university fees being paid by the English taxpayer. Scottish benefit seekers (of which there are many) will now be paid from the SNP's coffers, and not Westminsters. As for Salmon's little quip about Scotland being part of Scandinavia, I don't think I've heard anything more laughable. Except the notion of an independent Scotland, of course.

    You know, Alex Salmond is leading you down a dark route here. Remain in the UK as a stronger unified country. Or be taken over by the EU and end up as a German satrape like Ireland? Scotland has always had poor leaders, as the Russians have had too. I almost feel sorry for you chaps. Almost.
    We get it. You don't like Scottish people but you're hurt we're leaving. You'll still have Wales and NI to maintain your superiority complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Their Law View Post
    Anything worth discussing seems to have been exhausted around 10 pages back, the last few in particular have just been the nationalists on either side ranting in their own personal echo chambers.

    Which is a shame unfortunately.

    EDIT:

    But there are a few issues I don't think I've seen addressed by the Pro SNP side in this thread.

    What happens if independence is passed but significant regions of Scotland are majority unionist, say for example Orkney or Shetlands? Are the borders to be adjusted akin to Ireland or is it all or nothing? Leading on from that what happens if some regions request to remaing part of the UK in the event of Secession?

    What happens if the referendum fails. Are we going to have to go through this every-time the SNP get in power?

    What happens if you don't get access to the North Sea Oil fields?
    I wouldn't ever call myself pro-SNP but I can answer your questions easily enough.

    1: Any regions that would want independence from Scotland would need to go through the same political process as the rest of us. Form a movement, get enough members elected to pass a bill, hold a referendum and win it.
    2: If the referendum fails then Scotland will be politically kicked into the long grass, with the wide spread public desire for more powers ignored resulting in national apathy and disillusionment as the UK drags us down to oblivion.
    3: We will. It's ours by every conceivable international law (or about 94% of it anyway).
    Last edited by calicheSCOT; March 25, 2013 at 03:09 PM.
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  20. #2020
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    No, its unfair to force parts of Scotland's population to be part of a free Scotland when they want to remain part of the UK.
    And why Scotland as a whole is part of the UK at first hand?
    It is ridiculous for a referendum to suggest a split of the country to Unionist and independence regions, parts of UK and independent areas.
    Apart from being impractical, democracy via the rule of majority vote passes legislations and in this legal framework, applied in the majority if not all the procedures.
    Besides the terms of the referrendum have been set.
    As for the West Virginia example is invalid.Virginia was a state part of the confederation not a nation-state like Scotland.
    Last edited by neoptolemos; March 25, 2013 at 03:10 PM.
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

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