View Poll Results: How will or would you vote in a referendum for Scottish

Voters
644. You may not vote on this poll
  • I am Scottish - Yes

    24 3.73%
  • I am Scottish - No

    17 2.64%
  • I am from another part of the UK - Yes

    32 4.97%
  • I am from another part of the UK - No

    115 17.86%
  • I am from outside the UK - Yes

    260 40.37%
  • I am from outside the UK - No

    196 30.43%

Thread: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

  1. #5401
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I think the general dismay at the immense inertia and general rubbishness of British politics is what allows Yes support to withstand such scrutiny. I would appreciate being rid of FPTP, constant speculation of UKIP triumph, the Con/Lab duarchy, the HoL, and Boris Johnson. Sometimes I wonder if it could actually be worth the marginal economic dent.

    In fact the only part of our current state that I actually would like to keep in case of independence is a traditional uncodified constitution. I don't see the point: good parts of a modern constitution can be ignored if a democracy falls into enough disrepair regardless of the de jure inviolability of their laws; the parts that prove outdated only take longer to rectify.
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  2. #5402

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    If the Yes party didn't have such buffoons for leadership, the Yes vote would be 80%. If the establishment wasn't so blatantly undemocratic and prone to bullying, the No vote would be doing a lot better.
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  3. #5403

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Yeah bloody establishment. STOP BEING THE MAN

  4. #5404
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by YukonTrooper View Post
    If the Yes party didn't have such buffoons for leadership, the Yes vote would be 80%. If the establishment wasn't so blatantly undemocratic and prone to bullying, the No vote would be doing a lot better.
    I feel as if this is just some general statement you've made without actually looking at anything my friend

    The Yes party in all fairness has actually a very Charismatic leader in Salmond, he's failing though in the area of real factual analysis of his own and other potential policies for an independent Scotland to adopt.

    'The establishment' on the other hand- i think you may be looking for a different word than 'undemocratic'... as that rather falls short considering the UK is allowing us to hold a referendum to choose... so that's rather the opposite. The accusation of bullying i find amusing as it's actually what the SNP from the Yes side has been blamed for- attempting to silence academic criticism of their position, knowingly using false figures for oil production, making up lies about advice received from experts about the EU-

    On camera being interviewed by Andrew Neil, the First Minister announced that he had legal advice on Scotland's ability to remain in the EU. He then went to great lengths to cover up this lie by denying through the courts (costing £12,000) a freedom of information request to gain sight of it, only to be betrayed as a liar by his deputy Nicola Sturgeon who informed us that no advice had actually been sought. The EU Commission added to Sturgeon's statement that no letter or communication to it could be found seeking any advice. Salmond must have known that no such advice was sought but hoped using the courts he would not be found out to be liar.
    http://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkli...ead_full=11806
    Heck just before the debate the SNP were caught backing up a total lie about the NHS:

    Dr Whitford said in a speech that has been watched by more than 60,000
    people on youtube that a hospital in Gateshead would have to consider
    cancelling gullet cancer operations because of moves to privatise the NHS
    in England.

    This claim has been exposed as untrue in today’s Daily Record. The Chief
    Executive of the North East NHS Foundation Sir Leonard Fenwisk, described
    this claim as the “biggest load of crap I have ever heard” and “codswallop”.

    As the nationalist campaign gets more desperate, they have resorted to
    lies about our NHS. The tactic has backfired in recent weeks as a range of
    experts have spoken out to call these claims for what they are – lies.
    https://www.politicshome.com/uk/arti..._nhs_lies.html

    What's even stranger is the Nationalist camp are lying about the NHS in general:

    Alex Salmond’s claims Scotland’s NHS is in jeopardy from a No vote is the “most scandalous deceit of this referendum campaign”, MSPs have heard as he faced accusations of trying to scare people into voting for independence.Opposition MSPs said the greatest threat to funding for Scotland’s health service comes from leaving the UK as impartial economists have warned an additional £6 billion of spending cuts would be required.

    In heated exchanges, they challenged Mr Salmond and Alex Neil, his Health Minister, to justify their claims that spending on the English health service is being cut through privatisation and this would be passed onto Scotland following a No vote.

    But, when challenged, Mr Neil could not provide a single example of the Treasury having cut the English NHS budget, which is increasing by more than inflation.

    In a further embarrassment for the Nationalists, it emerged that Mike Russell, the Education Minister, wrote a book advocating the privatisation of NHS facilities that “failed to maintain profitability”.
    Especially again considering an Independent Scotland would have a £6 billion hole in it's budget potentially as said by the Independent Institute of fiscal studies... so i think if we are going to play the NHS fear card, it's the Independence Camp who should be scrutinized as their the ones who are going to have to make cuts:

    Mr Findlay also quoted Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government’s White Paper on independence as saying devolution would protect the NHS from any privatisation in England.Malcolm Chisholm, a Labour MSP and former Scottish Health Minister, said: “Isn’t the real threat to the Scottish NHS the possibility of a Yes vote and the increased austerity that would follow according to all independent economists?”
    Mr Neil claimed this was “totally factually incorrect” but the impartial Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned billions of pounds of extra spending cuts would be required to cope with sharply declining oil revenues.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...eferendum.html

    What's more to the point is that the NHS in Scotland can't actually be privatized at all, as it's totally under the control of Holyrood already... so it's MSP's only who would vote to say if they want to privatize it or not... nothing to do with Westminster.

    So all in all:
    "Alex Salmond lied when he said he had EU legal advice when he hadn't.
    John Swinney said he was in discussions with the Bank of England on a
    currency union when he wasn't.

    "Now the Yes campaign are trying to scare cancer patients, the sick and
    the vulnerable with stories which are simply untrue.

    "Alex Neil knows that the NHS in Scotland cannot be privatised - he said
    it himself.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...eferendum.html

    I think you've got the bullying aspect the wrong way round totally my friend.
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  5. #5405
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I don't know about you guys but I think it's starting to turn ugly on places like Facebook. I've got a lot of Scottish friends and the back and forth between the Yes and No supporters is getting pretty nasty. From what I can see the No supporters are remaining pretty civil and well behaved, but the Yes supporters - probably in the knowledge they are on the backfoot - are coming out swinging with some really nasty and unpleasant stuff. I called out anti-English prejudice as one of the main motivating factors for many Yes supporters many months ago, and looking at the stuff on my Facebook feed now that sentiment is tangible.

    An old friend of mine from my cadet days who lives up in Dufftown has been flooding Facebook with a steady stream of pro-independence articles and opinion. I took him to task last week and we had an argument back and forth all day long..... I pretty much destroyed his Yes argument and in the end all he could manage was "Well you're not Scottish so your opinion means nothing to me you don't have a vote." (I'll chalk that one up as a win then ) before carrying on with all the emotive crap about not having the government they voted for, what a bunch of :wub:s the Tories are and how awesome iScotland will be, blah blah blah.

    This whole thing has been very divisive and I've seen some utterly venomous and downright nasty stuff coming from Yes supporters. Whatever the vote is next month I think a lot of damage has been done, and all so that cretinous little shite Salmond can further his political career.


  6. #5406
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Pielstick View Post
    I don't know about you guys but I think it's starting to turn ugly on places like Facebook. I've got a lot of Scottish friends and the back and forth between the Yes and No supporters is getting pretty nasty. From what I can see the No supporters are remaining pretty civil and well behaved, but the Yes supporters - probably in the knowledge they are on the backfoot - are coming out swinging with some really nasty and unpleasant stuff. I called out anti-English prejudice as one of the main motivating factors for many Yes supporters many months ago, and looking at the stuff on my Facebook feed now that sentiment is tangible.

    An old friend of mine from my cadet days who lives up in Dufftown has been flooding Facebook with a steady stream of pro-independence articles and opinion. I took him to task last week and we had an argument back and forth all day long..... I pretty much destroyed his Yes argument and in the end all he could manage was "Well you're not Scottish so your opinion means nothing to me you don't have a vote." (I'll chalk that one up as a win then ) before carrying on with all the emotive crap about not having the government they voted for, what a bunch of :wub:s the Tories are and how awesome iScotland will be, blah blah blah.

    This whole thing has been very divisive and I've seen some utterly venomous and downright nasty stuff coming from Yes supporters. Whatever the vote is next month I think a lot of damage has been done, and all so that cretinous little shite Salmond can further his political career.
    The thing is, all that venom will not disappear if the vote is yes. There will be a tremendous amount of resentment by the Unionists in Scotland whilst the English who so far seem to be ambivalent, will become increasingly prickly when it comes to the actual separation. Divorces seldom ever happen without acrimony and recrimination. People forget that the Union of 1707 helped heal a division which had seen some of the most violent conflicts in Europe between countries, which lasted hundreds of years. Although, war is unlikely to happen for another hundred, good relations may be stretched severely.

  7. #5407

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    It may come down to who has more enthusiastic supporters willing to go out and vote, rather than actual numbers of people in Scotland who have an opinion, one way or another.
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  8. #5408
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Has there been any recent polls conducted after Monday's debate? Would be interesting to see if there has been any noticeable swing.
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  9. #5409
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I can't understand how people thought Salmond came on top in that debate. Like, I haven't been keeping track of the SNP, him, the debate, or anything, but god he seems like such a tool who's debating has more in common with some members here who try to deliver one liners and backhanded insults rather than debate.

  10. #5410
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    Has there been any recent polls conducted after Monday's debate? Would be interesting to see if there has been any noticeable swing.
    Well i've found some from the 26th.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...l-tracker.html

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/scottis...nce-referendum

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/sco...s/poll-tracker

    Consistently (though the lead varies from poll to poll) The no camp are ahead quite comfortably. Coupling this with the the fact that the debate on the spot audience poll impact was so minimal we can say quite safely Salmond hasn't achieved the major swing he needed. Potentially it could be close. But it will be a No victory (Thankfully, then we can talk about devo-max and hopefully looking at the UK as a whole).
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  11. #5411
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    The thing is, all that venom will not disappear if the vote is yes. There will be a tremendous amount of resentment by the Unionists in Scotland
    Absolutely. Even if Yes wins, there will still be a huge number of Scots finding themselves in an independent Scotland they never voted for. Which is why the "We never voted for the Tories" argument from the pro-indy supporters is so bloody disingenuous.


    The more I look at how Salmond has pitched independence at the Scottish people, the more I actually look into "the plan" the more I think the SNP are either completely inept idiots who genuinely don't have a clue what they're doing, or that this whole referendum was never a serious attempt at independence and more of a way to kick copious amounts of sand in Westminster's face.


  12. #5412

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Pielstick View Post
    Absolutely. Even if Yes wins, there will still be a huge number of Scots finding themselves in an independent Scotland they never voted for. Which is why the "We never voted for the Tories" argument from the pro-indy supporters is so bloody disingenuous.
    That's an extremely good way to make that point.

  13. #5413
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    It may come down to who has more enthusiastic supporters willing to go out and vote, rather than actual numbers of people in Scotland who have an opinion, one way or another.
    Perhaps the zeal of the nat core may be somewhat of an edge, but I think overall we are expecting very high turnout, so hopefully the result will be an accurate representation of national opinion.
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  14. #5414

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...camp-isolation

    An interesting perspective, at least from the celebrity aspect of this debate. I think campaigns so far have epitomized the struggle between ideology and pragmatism which reflects how difficult it is for the No campaign to argue against the land of milk and honey promised by the Yes campaign. Unfortunately, pragmatism is rarely an attribute of passionate people which is why the Yes campaign is more vocal and noticeable.

    Four things annoyed me in that last debate:
    1) The cheering and jeering from some of the audience members, just not very polite in my opinion.
    2) That some of the audience questions were just plain attacks on the debaters(I think you all know which one I'm talking about.
    3) Salmond's attempt to paint Darling(and consequently any No supporter) as Tories. Just a really dirty and cheap tactic.
    4) Salmond walking in front of the podium every time he answered a question. Seemed like some weird attempt to be more informal and friendly straight out of a rhetoric book for dummies and the desperate. Couldn't get this out of my head every time he did it:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Scratch that, the entire debate reminded me of that.
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  15. #5415
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Vigil View Post
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...camp-isolation

    An interesting perspective, at least from the celebrity aspect of this debate. I think campaigns so far have epitomized the struggle between ideology and pragmatism which reflects how difficult it is for the No campaign to argue against the land of milk and honey promised by the Yes campaign. Unfortunately, pragmatism is rarely an attribute of passionate people which is why the Yes campaign is more vocal and noticeable.

    You've hit on a very good point too with the whole 'No=Tories' card that Salmond is playing. I think it's probably he's getting very desperate from looking at the polls- so card of last resort- most Scots hate the Tory party, lets put them center stage... which is ridiculously stupid. Since ironically an IScotland surprisingly can also develop a right wing... who'd have thought it!? The Tory government is in power now soley due to a Coalition deal with the Lib-Dems (Weirdest meeting of minds in history...) and they are NOT the UK as a state. It really annoys me when Yes supporters start talking about that.

    Four things annoyed me in that last debate:
    1) The cheering and jeering from some of the audience members, just not very polite in my opinion.
    2) That some of the audience questions were just plain attacks on the debaters(I think you all know which one I'm talking about.
    3) Salmond's attempt to paint Darling(and consequently any No supporter) as Tories. Just a really dirty and cheap tactic.
    4) Salmond walking in front of the podium every time he answered a question. Seemed like some weird attempt to be more informal and friendly straight out of a rhetoric book for dummies and the desperate. Couldn't get this out of my head every time he did it:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Scratch that, the entire debate reminded me of that.
    Haha a good analogy i think. The issue though was the whole walking around the podium and looking people in the eye does work as we saw with the audience members, it's cheap, tacky and some people really do fall for it. To play that game what Darling should have done was did it first, but only once. Then when Salmond tries his cheesey approachable plan, he'd have just looked like he was copying or catching up.

    The audience in general was a bit of a disgrace, the questions asked on the whole were boring, useless or indeed as you've said downright strange. I'm not sure why the moderator allowed them, though he was a bit rubbish anyway.
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  16. #5416
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    Haha The audience in general was a bit of a disgrace, the questions asked on the whole were boring, useless or indeed as you've said downright strange. I'm not sure why the moderator allowed them, though he was a bit rubbish anyway.
    That accusation that woman in the audience made, about Labour politicians making money out of NHS privatization should not have been part of the questions within this debate. The Chair seemed very weak and the audience should have been made up entirely of those who were undecided. Darling was definitely uncomfortable and on the defensive from Mr Sneerly.

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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    To be honest the issue with the Kelvingrove debate audience is that they were too like the general public: closed-minded, arrogant, paranoid and woefully uninformed. Whether they came from Nats or Unionists (though mostly the Nats) the questions were just poorly thought-out rhetorical point-scorers against a politician they didn't like. Absolutely useless in what should have been an informative challenge of both sides' views.
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  18. #5418

    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    The problem with debates like this is that the put the personalities before the issues. Like the above post says, much of the public is completely uninformed, but maybe they just don't care. Darling was doing a reasonable job of trying to explain the issues, though he obviously isn't the most charismatic public speaker. Like he said, it was just about cheap soundbites; half the audience lept up in glee when Salmond declared that they cannot stop us (from a Scottish perspective) from using the pound, but seemed to completely miss the point that this 'victory' was actually the consequence of being refused a currency union and then defaulting on the debt, which is hardly the way a new country wants to go.

    Moreover, all this 'will you accept a mandate from the Scottish people for a currency union' talk was complete rubbish. Again, Darling made the point which was largely ignored, that a 'mandate' means very little if you are trying to get something from a foreign country, especially one which you have just broken away from, according to that same mandate. If rUK had a referendum on whether to have a currency union (and yes, I'm being silly here), and voted no, Salmond would call it bullying. But of course, there is nothing wrong with holding another country to economic ransom.

    Likewise, Salmond just had to utter the words 'trident' or dare I say it, 'bedroom tax' to get the crowd going, who also probably missed the point Darling made that being morally opposed (Salmond used the word moral at some point) to having nuclear weapons when wanting to join an alliance which is primarily a nuclear umbrella is quite hypocritical.

    And yes, it was annoying when he casually sauntered around his podium. And a lot of the audience were idiots, and there should be absolutely no room for the stupid remarks that were being made, especially when they were just personal attacks on Darling. The whole thing about being in bed with the Tories was disgraceful, and as people have already said, playing on anti-Tory sentiment in Scotland to ignore the issues. Whatever you think of Darling, I wouldn't question his commitment to the values of his own party. Darling could have gone into depth about how we just happen to have come out of the worst recession in decades, and are doing much better than Europe, and that very specific issues about current government policy should not have a bearing on the future of a whole country, but I think any attempt to do so would have been pointless.
    Last edited by Colossus; August 28, 2014 at 09:47 AM.

  19. #5419
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Pielstick View Post
    The more I look at how Salmond has pitched independence at the Scottish people, the more I actually look into "the plan" the more I think the SNP are either completely inept idiots who genuinely don't have a clue what they're doing, or that this whole referendum was never a serious attempt at independence and more of a way to kick copious amounts of sand in Westminster's face.
    See, that's an interesting point. My girlfriend (also a No voter) occasionally gets upset at me for referring to the Yes case as anything from wishful thinking to downright retarded because 'everyone's opinion needs to be respected'. Her take on things is that 'if you look at what the SNP say will happen, it looks pretty rosey.'

    This is true. If you're willing to accept that everything the SNP say will come true is destined, an Independent Scotland would be a very comfortable and prosperous country.

    The problem is people can't think critically. 'Oh but this Nobel Prize winning economist says we're right', they say. Of course he does, he's part of the 'economic thinktank' the SNP paid to put together to claim exactly that. What did you expect him to do? Disagree? As far as I know, by contrast, the 130 businesses aren't all paid by Westminster. As far as I know, the long list of senior businessmen that are registered No supporters aren't paid by Westminster. The list of registered No supporters in senior positions in business and industry far outweighs the list of their counterparts.

    All people do is read the headlines and make a decision. 'NOBEL PRIZE WINNER SAYS SNP ARE RIGHT', that's it. Too many people don't engage their brains and think 'why does he say this?'.

    That's why you can go into the polls looking at the employment data (for the polls that record it) and find full-time and self-employed people are majority No voters while part-time employed or unemployed are majority Yes voters, that's why you can find people in the higher social classifications are majority No and those in lower classifications are more likely to be Yes. Educated people think, and educated people are far more likely to arrive at the 'No' conclusion as a result.

    That's also why Cybernats are a thing. Young males who never got much out of school and aren't smart or educated. The kind of people that heckle debates and call JK Rowling a whore.

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    Last edited by Poach; August 28, 2014 at 10:11 AM.

  20. #5420
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Colossus View Post
    The problem with debates like this is that the put the personalities before the issues. Like the above post says, much of the public is completely uninformed, but maybe they just don't care. Darling was doing a reasonable job of trying to explain the issues, though he obviously isn't the most charismatic public speaker. Like he said, it was just about cheap soundbites; half the audience lept up in glee when Salmond declared that they cannot stop us (from a Scottish perspective) from using the pound, but seemed to completely miss the point that this 'victory' was actually the consequence of being refused a currency union and then defaulting on the debt, which is hardly the way a new country wants to go.

    Moreover, all this 'will you accept a mandate from the Scottish people for a currency union' talk was complete rubbish. Again, Darling made the point which was largely ignored, that a 'mandate' means very little if you are trying to get something from a foreign country, especially one which you have just broken away from, according to that same mandate. If rUK had a referendum on whether to have a currency union (and yes, I'm being silly here), and voted no, Salmond would call it bullying. But of course, there is nothing wrong with holding another country to economic ransom.

    Likewise, Salmond just had to utter the words 'trident' or dare I say it, 'bedroom tax' to get the crowd going, who also probably missed the point Darling made that being morally opposed (Salmond used the word moral at some point) to having nuclear weapons when wanting to join an alliance which is primarily a nuclear umbrella is quite hypocritical.

    And yes, it was annoying when he casually sauntered around his podium. And a lot of the audience were idiots, and there should be absolutely no room for the stupid remarks that were being made, especially when they were just personal attacks on Darling. The whole thing about being in bed with the Tories was disgraceful, and as people have already said, playing on anti-Tory sentiment in Scotland to ignore the issues. Whatever you think of Darling, I wouldn't question his commitment to the values of his own party. Darling could have gone into depth about how we just happen to have come out of the worst recession in decades, and are doing much better than Europe, and that very specific issues about current government policy should not have a bearing on the future of a whole country, but I think any attempt to do so would have been pointless.
    On reflection, I do think the audience was quite biased towards independence. I don't recall Salmond getting much of a grilling, and the crowd did seem very vocal when it came to his points. To use a football analogy, it was like the game was played on Salmond's home ground.
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