View Poll Results: How will or would you vote in a referendum for Scottish

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  • I am Scottish - Yes

    20 3.69%
  • I am Scottish - No

    15 2.77%
  • I am from another part of the UK - Yes

    27 4.98%
  • I am from another part of the UK - No

    99 18.27%
  • I am from outside the UK - Yes

    211 38.93%
  • I am from outside the UK - No

    170 31.37%
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Thread: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

  1. #1821
    BigDogDavis's Avatar Kihei
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I want them to succeed just so I can laugh at the inevitable nationalist rambling on the internet.
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  2. #1822
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Fabrum
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    You were arguing about using the pound without establishing a formal currency union. This is not the SNP policy, so you were wrong. Simple.

  3. #1823
    selder's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    You were arguing about using the pound without establishing a formal currency union. This is not the SNP policy, so you were wrong. Simple.
    Actually I was arguing that we have 3 options for currency, so how can that mean I am arguing about using the pound without establishing a currency union? You are jumping to conclusions that is all, go back and read all the posts again as you seem to have missed a few. It should be easy to quote where I was wrong, I will be waiting...
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  4. #1824
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Fabrum
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Selder, your three options are fantasy. The SNP have explicitly said they are pursuing using sterling, with the Bank of England Governing it. Your main tactic in this thread has been to promote independence on pure wishful thinking - I will only engage on the facts.

  5. #1825
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Sounds like Salmond at this rate basically wants all the good things of remaining in the UK just without being in the UK. Like he got into politics realising he has no chance of ever becoming PM so he decided to use nationalism in Scotland so he could make it independent and become a prime minister anyway.

  6. #1826
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    Selder, your three options are fantasy. The SNP have explicitly said they are pursuing using sterling, with the Bank of England Governing it. Your main tactic in this thread has been to promote independence on pure wishful thinking - I will only engage on the facts.
    Scotland could remain in a sterling currency union with Britain, just as the Republic of Ireland did from 1921 to 1978. Or we could adopt an independent currency, which finance minister John Swinney has already stated was a contingency. I still don't see the fantasy. Like I said it is in the best interest of everyone involved to make currency a non issue, as Scotland contributes to 10% of Sterling anyway. With the loss of the AAA rating, I really don't see how you think your position is any stronger. Who knows where the Euro will be in 2014, it might very well be the better option.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemgod View Post
    Sounds like Salmond at this rate basically wants all the good things of remaining in the UK just without being in the UK.
    What a novel idea, politicians who actually fight to enfranchise their constituents.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemgod
    Like he got into politics realising he has no chance of ever becoming PM so he decided to use nationalism in Scotland so he could make it independent and become a prime minister anyway.
    Wow maybe he is psychic, I mean when he entered into politics their wasn't even a Scottish Parliament yet.
    In the garb of old Gaul, with the fire of old Rome,
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  7. #1827
    Colossus's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    With the loss of the AAA rating, I really don't see how you think your position is any stronger.
    Why do you say 'your' position when Scotland wants to continue to use the Sterling and be governed by the Bank of England?

  8. #1828
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Fabrum
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    I know, I don't even know how to talk to Selder. It's as if he thinks independence is the equivalent to a blank slate.

  9. #1829
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Colossus View Post
    Why do you say 'your' position when Scotland wants to continue to use the Sterling and be governed by the Bank of England?
    Are you saying that the UK is governed by the Bank of England? Because that is what it sounds like. You see I always thought it only managed monetary policy, you know as in ensuring currency stability. So I guess I don't see how that qualifies as governing. Maybe you are right though, and come July 1 the UK will be governed by Canada when Carney takes over.

    As for the currency union, the Scottish government has established a panel of experts. The Fiscal Commission Working Group includes two winners of the Nobel economics prize, Joseph Stiglitz and Sir Jim Mirrlees, as well as Scottish economist Andrew Hughes-Hallett and Frances Ruane. The Fiscal Commission Working Group report proposes that Scotland should have a shareholding in the Bank of England, based on its population share of nearly 10%. This should ensure a role in appointments to key committees, and oversight at meetings by Scottish officials. It says there should be a Macroeconomic Governance Committee, in which the economic institutions of Scotland and the rest of the UK would co-ordinate policy. So it will not be a simple handing over full power to the BoE, but instead there would be a Macroeconomic Governance Committee, in which the economic institutions of Scotland and the rest of the UK would co-ordinate policy. Of course this is only a proposal as like I said earlier, Scotland has several options. That is the beauty of being independent, the ability to choose what is best for you. I personally would choose Sterling, because I honestly want to make the transition to be beneficial to all parties. I do not want independence to hurt the economy here in Britain, I only seek to strengthen our countries. To do that we must modernise our democracies.

    Alex Kemp: “From the point of view of the balance of trade, oil exports would be a big plus for the Scottish economy. If Scotland were part of the EU, there would be an obligation not to discriminate against EU partners on exports. It would depend on the open market as far as Europe was concerned. One point is worth bearing in mind. Although it is a big plus for Scotland, it would help the rest of the UK as well. If Scotland were in the sterling area, it would help sterling as well, as there would be a need to acquire sterling to buy the oil.
    Last edited by selder; February 25, 2013 at 12:56 PM.
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    From the heath-covered mountains of Scotia we come;
    Our loud-sounding pipe breathes the true martial strain,
    And our hearts still the old Scottish valour retain.

  10. #1830
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    Are you saying that the UK is governed by the Bank of England? Because that is what it sounds like. You see I always thought it only managed monetary policy, you know as in ensuring currency stability. So I guess I don't see how that qualifies as governing. Maybe you are right though, and come July 1 the UK will be governed by Canada when Carney takes over.

    As for the currency union, the Scottish government has established a panel of experts. The Fiscal Commission Working Group includes two winners of the Nobel economics prize, Joseph Stiglitz and Sir Jim Mirrlees, as well as Scottish economist Andrew Hughes-Hallett and Frances Ruane. The Fiscal Commission Working Group report proposes that Scotland should have a shareholding in the Bank of England, based on its population share of nearly 10%. This should ensure a role in appointments to key committees, and oversight at meetings by Scottish officials. It says there should be a Macroeconomic Governance Committee, in which the economic institutions of Scotland and the rest of the UK would co-ordinate policy. So it will not be a simple handing over full power to the BoE, but instead there would be a Macroeconomic Governance Committee, in which the economic institutions of Scotland and the rest of the UK would co-ordinate policy. Of course this is only a proposal as like I said earlier, Scotland has several options.
    Would probably only happen if the BOE said "Sure why not."
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  11. #1831
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by ☩Lord Inquisitor Derpy Hooves☩ View Post
    Would probably only happen if the BOE said "Sure why not."
    Well I don't think it is actually up to the Bank itself, but yes it would have to be agreed upon. Like I said though it would be beneficial to all parties to do so, unless you you go the route of mutually assured economic destruction.
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    Our loud-sounding pipe breathes the true martial strain,
    And our hearts still the old Scottish valour retain.

  12. #1832
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    Well I don't think it is actually up to the Bank itself, but yes it would have to be agreed upon. Like I said though it would be beneficial to all parties to do so, unless you you go the route of mutually assured economic destruction.
    But this all comes down to in the end more assumptions that Scotland will be able to get anything it wants post-independence, and that this will also happen to coincide with what will be best for the rest of the UK. What are the plans if it doesn't go the way Salmond wants?

    Let's say in the hypothetical independence negotiations it turns out that creating a currency union and sharing control of the Bank of England is not in fact in the UK's interest. The SNP plans to keep Sterling, what are their plans if they don't gain any influence over monetary policy, which is now controlled by an entity that no longer has to concern itself over Scotland? Perhaps they could try and join the euro, or even create a new currency of their own, but these are both endeavours with their own significant risks and crucially without any indication that the Scottish people would end up better off. That's why so many people are against independence, the SNP aren't showing much more than hope and wishes.

  13. #1833
    The Great Montrose's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    create a scottish currency
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  14. #1834
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    Are you saying that the UK is governed by the Bank of England? Because that is what it sounds like. You see I always thought it only managed monetary policy, you know as in ensuring currency stability. So I guess I don't see how that qualifies as governing. Maybe you are right though, and come July 1 the UK will be governed by Canada when Carney takes over.
    Managing policy and governing mean the same thing; both need context, which I gave. In terms of currency, the Sterling (which is what my post said) is managed by, i.e. governed by the Bank of England. If Scotland uses the Sterling, it will not be governing the currency it is using, which is not financial independence. Even with your intentional misinterpretation, the Canada comparison is meaningless, as the BoE remains a UK government institution regardless of the individuals in it.

    Nevertheless, the point remains, you are singing the virtues of how Scotland will negotiate a currency union, because that is the best thing to do, while at the same time mocking the downgrading of the credit rating.

    As for the last post, that would be completely stupid. I would not vote for independence if that was the result, whatever else I felt. Even if it wasn't, how can someone vote for independence when they don't know which of three different currencies they might end up with?
    Last edited by Colossus; February 25, 2013 at 04:12 PM.

  15. #1835
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    create a scottish currency
    Could that be a transitional currency?

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  16. #1836
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobz View Post
    But this all comes down to in the end more assumptions that Scotland will be able to get anything it wants post-independence, and that this will also happen to coincide with what will be best for the rest of the UK. What are the plans if it doesn't go the way Salmond wants?
    Who said it will take place post-independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobz
    Let's say in the hypothetical independence negotiations it turns out that creating a currency union and sharing control of the Bank of England is not in fact in the UK's interest. The SNP plans to keep Sterling, what are their plans if they don't gain any influence over monetary policy, which is now controlled by an entity that no longer has to concern itself over Scotland? Perhaps they could try and join the euro, or even create a new currency of their own, but these are both endeavours with their own significant risks and crucially without any indication that the Scottish people would end up better off. That's why so many people are against independence, the SNP aren't showing much more than hope and wishes.
    The UK economy is suffering from stagflation, UK government debt is rising fast, there will have to be tax rises and spending cuts.

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  17. #1837
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by andysmfc13 View Post
    create a scottish currency
    Does not sound like a good idea
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  18. #1838
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by selder View Post
    Who said it will take place post-independence?
    The timing is the least important thing I said. What about the main point, do the SNP have an answer when everything doesn't go their way?

    The UK economy is suffering from stagflation, UK government debt is rising fast, there will have to be tax rises and spending cuts.
    I would disagree, but what's that got to do with what I said? How is Scotland going to be any better and what are the SNP's plans if the UK doesn't want a currency union?


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  19. #1839
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobz View Post
    The timing is the least important thing I said. What about the main point, do the SNP have an answer when everything doesn't go their way?



    I would disagree, but what's that got to do with what I said? How is Scotland going to be any better and what are the SNP's plans if the UK doesn't want a currency union?




    Perhaps if you're a young idealist. Most people want the less romantic tendrils of reality.
    This post here, sums up exactly how myself and most scots i know feel my friends. The SNP is dealing with might be's and is assuming it will get everything perfect as it wants...while ignoring the fact that per say Nato membership is not guarenteed, The EU dosen't want us (As has been stated for reasons earlier in this thread...also who's to say what shape or form it will be in in a few years time...maybe it will become far too federal for an independent Scotland to stomach...irony, escape UK just to be in the same situation, where the ones in charge are even further away! Or indeed it may be a rich boys club so to speak, only containing the stable economies of those who are powerful enough...whatever), the sterling issue as stated above, the realistic economic plan, tax plans, the structure of the civil and public services, the armed forces... all of this, the SNP hasn't actually got yet...or considered the possibilities that maybe the UK won't lend us all the equipment we need, maybe the EU will be in no position to take us...or will be undesirable for us. Maybe we won't even get the oil revenues, due to them being drilled by companies who have a contract with the UK...too many maybes for us, not enough answers my friends. I appreciate your arguments Selder, but i'm afraid as eloquent as you are, even you can't cover up for the fact that the SNP themselves, don't really know much for certain yet. That is the big problem.

  20. #1840
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    Default Re: Scottish Independence Referendum is agreed: vote in 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobz View Post
    I would disagree
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    You can agree or disagree but what matters are facts.

    Most economists hold to the notion that lenders lend to borrowers and banks are mere intermediaries. The reality is that it is banks who create new money and lend to borrowers. After decades of credit expansion Britain faces a profound decades long contraction/decline. Credit cannot be extended because Britain has reached the point of debt saturation and the capital to borrow against is spent and actually diminishing thanks to low interest rates. The UK's staggering debt to GDP ratio is almost 1000%, most of which is financial debt. Therefore, the austerity vs stimulus argument does not even apply here. Not even the US or Europe have this problem, their problem is not debt, but fiscal/monetary structure.

    So you see, that is the less romantic tendrils of reality.
    In the garb of old Gaul, with the fire of old Rome,
    From the heath-covered mountains of Scotia we come;
    Our loud-sounding pipe breathes the true martial strain,
    And our hearts still the old Scottish valour retain.

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