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Thread: [FAQ] How to Play in a Hotseat Game

  1. #1

    Default [FAQ] How to Play in a Hotseat Game

    I would appreciate it if a regular hotseat player who has experience in both admin and player roles would make a tutorial for new players. so they have a better idea on what to expect.

    a prize for the best tutorial wirtten.

  2. #2
    Dux's Avatar Warden of Westeros
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    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Ok will give it a first try to make a very short introduction and faq. I think this is what Toho is looking for.

    Hotseatsing in Westeros!

    Contents:
    Introduction
    Beginner
    Participation
    Tips


    Introduction
    Hi and welcome to the Westeros Totalwar Hotseat subforum! As you can see we are quite an active hotseat community, probably the most active on this forum besides the general Multiplayer hotseat section. I hope this guide can help new and experienced players about the basics of Westeros hotseats. Don't expect to be a pro after reading this, only through experience in playing hotseats can you become a good player.

    We play hotseats only with submods, as the original Westeros Alpha is too broken to be played.
    We mostly play with the enhanced submod, my own King of Rivers and Hills submod or the Blackfyre Rebellion submod. Each hotseat topic will state in its title or in the opening post which submod is used.

    Beginner
    If you have played hotseats before you can skip this part.

    Hotseats are multiplayer campaigns, not by playing in real time but by playing with saves.

    Here is how it works:
    Admin sets up a hotseat and creates the first save(more on that later).

    Player one(almost always House Lannister) downloads the first save and puts it in Medieval II Totalwar/mods/modfolder(e.g: Westeros)/saves.
    He starts the mod, and loads the save as he would normally load any save.
    He comes at the hotseat screen.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Here he finds some general information about the hotseat and here he can set his password. After he has set his password he can start the turn. Remember this password, as each time you play a turn you have to first type your password before you can play it.
    Now he can start playing his first turn.

    After he is done with his turn he ends (VERY IMPORTANT!) the turn. After he has ended the turn the same hotseat screen comes up but now for the second player (often House Tyrell). Now he saves the game by using the format the admin provided. Often it is like this: hotseatname_house_turnnumber.

    Now he uploads the save file he just made to the hotseats topic. The save can be uploaded on any uploading site or directly on this site using the attachments feature. (Note however that this site does not support the .sav extension and you have to pack your save by using a program like winrar).
    After that he notifies the next player with a pm or a post on his profile.

    Now the second player can download the save file the first player uploaded and the process repeats itself.

    Participation
    If you want to participate in a Westeros hotseat, simply state in a new hotseat topic that you want to join that particular hotseat. You can also join as a sub or replacement for a member that leaves an already started hotseat. Hotseats that need players will post in the Replacement player thread. It is not advised to start a new hotseat topic if you have never played hotseats before.

    Be warned however, most hotseats have a long time span and require you to be active for a long time on these forums, at least for a few months. Most hotseats have a 24h rule, which means your turn can come up pretty quickly and when it does you don't have a lot of time to play. When playing hotseats it is advised to be online at least once a day. If you can't do that then there is no point in joining any hotseats.

    Tips

    General tips
    • Read the opening post of the hotseat topic and in particularly the rules.
    • Stick to these rules or you will be punished, this can even lead to a ban from all hotseats in the subforum.
    • Try to make alliances and treaties with other players through personal messages or ingame messages (done by opening the diplomatic tab and clicking the faction's banner).
    • Don't cheat.
    • Don't use any bugs, these are often detailed in the opening post.
    • Always notify the next player.
    • Contact the admin if you think another player has broken the rules before you post that in the topic.
    • Betraying is allowed, this is game of thrones after all. But it is frowned upon and you risk making an enemy out of everyone.
    • Pick an easy faction, Lannister or Tyrell if available.
    • If you have time, read the links Loose Canon and Mithridrate posted


    Play tips:
    • Have a clear plan on what you want to do in this hotseats, setting a goal for yourself can help.
    • Try to know where your enemies are and what they are doing.
    • Only attack if you know absolutely sure the opponent has not set up a trap, again know your enemies positions.
    • Always make sure you are the attacker, as they seem to have a slight advantage in hotseats.
    • Build forts and watchtowers.
    • Try to move your troops around in large armies, depending on the situation of course.
    • Be prepared to lose your first 2 or 3 hotseats.
    • Play a lot of hotseats to become more experienced.


    Westeros specific:

    • There are no spies and only a very few assassins and priests in Westeros Total War. So use diplomats to scout the enemy and use watchtowers to guard your lands.
    • There are no siege engines, so be prepared for sieges that take at least a turn.
    • Forts are a really important component of Westeros Total War, use them wisely.
    • Settlements can't upgrade, so don't invest in improving growth rates buildings.
    • Most settlements have a good set of pre-build buildings, including economic buildings, so focus primarily on training units.
    Last edited by Dux; October 12, 2012 at 05:35 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    If you dont want to read above, here is a good video on how you hotseat. ( you should still read above, some very good tips in the paragraphs. )

    Cheers dux and loose, as loose says you have to read em both to really understand hotseating.
    Dux summation is very nice too and should be read by any beginner.

    We have some solid guides here but id like to add a little of my own:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Auto-Resolve and how it works
    A key part in hotseating is carrying out the fighting and this is usually only done with auto-resolve, it can be just as important to have the right troops as it is to do the right moves. Exactly how AR engine works i do not know and have found little to no information but the cause and effect is easy to see.

    The AR engine uses Troop numbers, attack, Total defence ( armor+skill+shield+hp ) when calculating odds and whom wins a fight.

    ESTIMATIONS Effective vs armor counts as 1 or 2 attack, good stamina as 1 or 2 defense while very good and excellent each adds 1-2 more. Furthermore, these bonuses are not calculated in ar odds. So an army of Ironborn raiders with 1 chevron looks as if they will lose bad vs Armored spears while they in truth win easily.

    Because of this you want heavy troops over light ones, infantry over cavalry. A spear militia army will beat an army of mounted knights for example while costing only a fraction as much to create and maintain. Most archer units have very low attack ( note: missile attack is NOT used in AR ) and are thus both expensive and very poor. Keep in mind that experience, armor and weapon upgrades does add to the units values used in AR! (attack increased by better weapons and experience, defense by better armor) Try not to merge away these things if you can

    Command greatly affects casualties and thus the AR outcome ( note: command does not show up on the calculated odds, but it does greatly affect outcome! ) a 10 star general will decrease your losses in the army he is leading by an incredible amount but its really notable at 5 command already. Because of this you want your best troops with your best generals as he is the hardest one to defeat. When attacking it can be best to let him lead whatever army you want to take the least casualties or the army attacking ( whoever attacks is the one whom will get most if not all the traits from the battle )

    Defense bonuses also affect outcome, an army defending a fortress can be extremely hard to defeat while being easily defeated in the open. I suspect you can get this from defending bridges, hills and forests too but im not sure. The higher the level of the defenses the bigger bonus. It does not improve your AR when attacking however, only when defending.

    Info about the AR to your advantage
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    These are the more... tricky bits of the AR engine

    If you attack say 10 men in a fortress with 100 of your own, youre likely to have HORRIBLE odds but will win every time provided the troops are above rubbish quality. So keep in mind that the "odds" is not always accurate.

    The AR engine seem to have a "breaking point" function for units involved, if a unit is calculated to lose a certain amount of men in % that is over the unknown "breaking point" it seems as they "rout". Its hard to explain but the effect is not. You want to keep your units as large as possible, if you have an army of decimated units you can easily be defeated by a lesser enemy. But if you combine your men to keep each unit strong he wont be able to. 20 units of 20 men ( 400 men ) is MUCH weaker than 4 units of 400 men. Also, you risk losing additional men to this as sometimes small units gets destroyed even though they have very few men left after a battle.

    You want to keep your strongest units first in the order of your men, this is the general consensus. I cant tell you how this is but im pretty sure this is due to the "breaking point". Either way, do it! If you are sure to win however, its better to keep easily replaced troops first. You will always lose a certain ( attack/def+number of men) value, and i rather lose 10 militia to gain that value than 3 armored swordsmen. But make sure to swap back so you end the turn with your best units first

    If you can, attack the weaker army as the heaviest losses are usually taken by the main attacker and defender army.
    because of this youre more likely to hit the "breaking point", the advantage is slight but supposedly there. Its possible that you may not be able to beat the Main enemy head on, but beat him when he reinforces only. Either way, youre more likely to cause more losses.

    Keep these things in mind and you can turn a defeat into a victory, expensive victory into a cheap one, it may very well win you the war!
    What you want in your commanders
    When choosing whom should be your main commander you should check them out properly, some characters will never be a good commander while others can become great! You want traits that cannot be affected by fighting battles, like "social drinker" "born to command" and "intelligent". As opposed to "proven commander" "confident attacker" "fierce in battle".

    Adopting someone whom is a born commander but unproven can easily reach 6 command by one or two battles, 8 after many and 10 if he gets a little lucky. While an Proven commander will have a hard time to reach 6 command, very hard to reach 8 and downright impossible to get 10. I try to use the ones with potential, really adds up in the long run. But let your armies be commanded ( when not attacking! ) by those with the most command.

    Look for +movement traits, these can be very valuable as 1 square can be the difference between losing everything or destroying your enemy. At least look for this when adopting new people, its pretty easy to get a drillmaster +15% movement and it really helps to get your men to the front lines. Try playing stannis with his 30% of some of the 20-25% greyjoy commanders and you will realize it can be a HUGE thing. If im sure my army is safe i often let my general with the most +movement lead it and only put my high command guy in charge when attacking/defending.

    I often find people using the "i cant get better" good command guy over the "im ok, but i can become great... and look how i make my men FLY!"

    Summary

    For best AR-odds
    • High attack/defence units with a lot of men in them.
    • Good generals leading your best armies, command is key
    • Upgrade your men, dont waste experienced men!
    • Try different combinations

    Generals
    • Natural commanders over Proven commanders
    • +movement can make all the difference
    • Potential over Talent when able

    Hotseating can be bloody hard, but give it time... Knowledge will give you that little extra for the start and help you peak, but experience is the way. Give it time, dont expect to win at first and play with care and have fun
    Last edited by Mithridate; November 10, 2013 at 06:37 PM.
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

    Very nice, Getting a good picture everybody? So we look nice and handsome and thin? Thank you. -The God Emperor, creating world peace and unforgettable memes
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  4. #4

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Nice post

    Correction, though

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridate View Post
    ( note: missile attack is NOT used in AR )
    It is, actually.

    Autoresolve uses primary attack as the important variable.

    Thus all missile units will use their missile attack in AR, while melee units use their primary attack (so, if a unit has two weapons, only the first to be listed in the EDU, generally lance or pike or stuff) will be counted.
    "For myself, I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens; not as a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor, and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise."

  5. #5

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Sorry Hopeless but that is incorrect, attack is used (attack = base attack+exp bonus+weapon upg) NOT missile attack ( be that spear or arrow/bolt )

    Same for missile cav, its the attack not missile attack that counts. This is why in the mod CCM (specifically used for hotseating) all missile units have their attack buffed so they wont be useless in AR. You can easily try this out by placing 5 archer militia vs 4 peasants 500v500 men. ( 1 attack / def each while archers have more missile attack depending on mod ). They end up equal while archer should win every time as they have several times higher missile attack than regular attack. Can also test this with cav, place knights vs jav cav.

    It is however indicated that "effective vs armor" adds to attack, how much and according to what circumstances i do not know. (raiders will outperform militia despite same stats for example) But it does seem to be a slight advantage, id put it to 1-2 attack.
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Hang in there, ask a lot and whenever something goes wrong go thurough it in your head to understand what you did wrong, what went wrong and what you could/should have done differently. Knowledge, backed up by trial and error as well as through planning is key to victory.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In the end, you shall stand above all others and when you do... You will become one of us
    Last edited by Mithridate; October 13, 2012 at 06:01 PM.
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

    Very nice, Getting a good picture everybody? So we look nice and handsome and thin? Thank you. -The God Emperor, creating world peace and unforgettable memes
    https://twitter.com/RitaPanahi/statu...48737210662912 <-- Unforgettable face.

  6. #6
    Loose Cannon's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    A spear militia army will beat an army of mounted knights for example while costing only a fraction as much to create and maintain. -Mithridate
    You need to rethink that statement. I remember some screens shown to me and decided to test this. That test had used Egypt's heavy spearmen (20 units) vs Byzantine Scollarii (20 units) in Stainless Steel and the spearmen were DESTROYED. So I went with this simple test French spear militia s. HRE mailed Knights on huge settings. Tested twice on medium and very hard battle settings. The only move for each faction was to move the unit to the battle location. First 2 screenies are medium second 2 are on very hard. This may be only a Stainless Steel result so I'll test later in other mods as I have the time. Soon as I can I intend to work on an auto-resolve improvement project I have planned. The days of one army overwhelmingly destroying another will come to an end.
    Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance-David Mamet

    Old age and forgetfullness makes it . . .er, I forgot-Loose Cannon

  7. #7

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Well, 20 spearmen vs 20 scholari is NOT a fair match, each scholarii (best cav in the game costing 2k, spear militia cost 200) way outmatch the spears. The key is that spearmen outnumber the cav 2,5 times normally and thus end up winning despite each individual unit having worse stats.

    The spear militia was un-upgraded for your test (and its SS 6.4) where spear militia have 1 attack, westeros they have 3 I will not take back the statement, it could use tweaking perhaps but youre missing my point. The spearmen cost a fraction to train and keep of the hedge knights, and preform as well or better! They will lose against elite cav just as they would lose to elite units ( Hasham, battlefield assasins ) for example.

    The usual thing for militia in westeros is 3 attack 9 def 150 men. Hedge knights 7 attack 20 def 60 men
    This gives the spear militia a total of 3 attack 9 def vs the cavs 2,8 attack 8 def (0.4 as many men, thus the combat values of the hedge knights) (not to mention experience and weapon upgrades greater effect)

    All this while costing a fraction as much and only eat leftovers for upkeep. Now, the AR engine is a little more complicated than this very simple calc but it operates along those lines
    Last edited by Mithridate; October 14, 2012 at 11:24 AM.
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

    Very nice, Getting a good picture everybody? So we look nice and handsome and thin? Thank you. -The God Emperor, creating world peace and unforgettable memes
    https://twitter.com/RitaPanahi/statu...48737210662912 <-- Unforgettable face.

  8. #8

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridate View Post
    Sorry Hopeless but that is incorrect, attack is used (attack = base attack+exp bonus+weapon upg) NOT missile attack ( be that spear or arrow/bolt )

    Same for missile cav, its the attack not missile attack that counts. This is why in the mod CCM (specifically used for hotseating) all missile units have their attack buffed so they wont be useless in AR. You can easily try this out by placing 5 archer militia vs 4 peasants 500v500 men. ( 1 attack / def each while archers have more missile attack depending on mod ). They end up equal while archer should win every time as they have several times higher missile attack than regular attack. Can also test this with cav, place knights vs jav cav.
    Usually I would merely defer to your better judgement

    But I've made some tests which indicate otherwise. And yes, I am quite obsessive about autoresolve

    Will upload the stuff in a while.

    EDIT: The original tests were done in Third Age, but it's the same thing really.

    Using unmodded Westeros Enhanced 0.53:

    Attachment 246175

    Attachment 246176

    Not a lot to observe. Archers have 3 missile, 1 melee, and lousy defense. And poor Marbrand had cavalry.

    I reloaded several times, in order to make sure these are reliable results with the stats I was using.

    Then, using the same save I had just used:

    Attachment 246177

    Overkill...

    Attachment 246178

    Or not?

    Quit the game, tweaked the archer's attack (this time the missile one).

    Reloaded:

    Attachment 246179

    *drums*

    Attachment 246180

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridate View Post
    It is however indicated that "effective vs armor" adds to attack, how much and according to what circumstances i do not know. (raiders will outperform militia despite same stats for example) But it does seem to be a slight advantage, id put it to 1-2 attack.
    That would explain a lot of things. I've observed that AP units do tend to do a lot better than what their stats say they should.

    Ah, if only CA could just show us all the autoresolve code

    If only this community had some previous or current members working at CA (Lusted)

    @Loose Cannon

    Autoresolve improvement project? That sounds nice

    Do you plan on using secondary hitpoints in the EDU? Or will you focus on the descr_campaign_db?
    Last edited by Hopelessly Hopeless; November 17, 2012 at 10:54 AM.
    "For myself, I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens; not as a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor, and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise."

  9. #9

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Looking forward to it Hopeless, will be most interesting to see what you have to bring...
    But i do insist that you are incorrect Some allowances must be made for what we dont know however

    Edit: why dont you put some archer units vs each other and tweak that? Using the martell archer ( 1attack 4 def) vs any other archer ( 1 attack 3 def but add 1 armor ) should work fine ( id test myself but do not know how to tweak units, nor do u want to know ^^ )

    The way you do it know is with a lot of variables, and all victories. If the tweaks you show are correct then set it up so the archers are repeatedly defeated, then give them 40 missile attack so they should easily win.

    If they then start winning you have evidence for your claim. If you do not then it unfortunately proves nothing. Id like to add that for some reason, riverland archers are better in AR than archers of the north by quite a bit ( RA 5A 7MA 11D AotN 5A 5MA 13D ) But the RA also have very good stamina... affects like effective vs armor mayhaps?

    another example:
    Cogs > galleys by a little bit too btw and there the only diff is that cog have 2 less attack but 2 more def... But the RA vs AotN differance is MUCH much bigger ( so i have to assume stamina adds to AR like effective vs armor )

    I too, wish we knew more about the AR engine. Id also like confirmation on my suspicion those who made the westeros mod have tweaked with the AR engine for its quite different from the other mods
    ( results, usually extremely one sided when you win )
    Last edited by Mithridate; October 14, 2012 at 11:32 AM.
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  10. #10
    Loose Cannon's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridate View Post
    Well, 20 spearmen vs 20 scholari is NOT a fair match, each scholarii (best cav in the game costing 2k, spear militia cost 200) way outmatch the spears. The key is that spearmen outnumber the cav 2,5 times normally and thus end up winning despite each individual unit having worse stats.
    No, it was using Egypts 1000 florin Heavy Spearman. Supposedly, it's best infantry unit (based on stats and what it takes to build them.)
    The spear militia was un-upgraded for your test (and its SS 6.4) where spear militia have 1 attack, westeros they have 3 I will not take back the statement, it could use tweaking perhaps but youre missing my point. The spearmen cost a fraction to train and keep of the knights, and preform as well or better! They will lose against elite cav just as they would lose to elite units ( Hasham, battlefield assasins ) for example.

    The usual thing for militia in westeros is 3 attack 9 def 150 men. Cav 7 attack 20 def 60 men
    This gives the spear militia a total of 3 attack 9 def vs the cavs 2,8 attack 8 def (0.4 as many men, thus the combat values of the knights) (not to mention experience and weapon upgrades greater effect)

    All this while costing a fraction as much and only eat leftovers for upkeep. Now, the AR engine is a little more complicated than this very simple calc but it operates along those lines
    I'm not asking you to take back your statement, just don't make blanket statements like that. Every mod is different. A basic, untrained (militia)unit should not be able to beat a decent unit. Just ran the test on Westeros and it shouldn't happen like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopelessly Hopeless View Post
    Usually I would merely defer to your better judgement

    But I've made some tests which indicate otherwise. And yes, I am quite obsessive about autoresolve

    Will upload the stuff in a while.



    That would explain a lot of things. I've observed that AP units do tend to do a lot better than what their stats say they should.

    Ah, if only CA could just show us all the autoresolve code

    If only this community had some previous or current members working at CA (Lusted)

    @Loose Cannon

    Autoresolve improvement project? That sounds nice

    Do you plan on using secondary hitpoints in the EDU? Or will you focus on the descr_campaign_db?
    My plan is to fix BOTH files because both have an effect. Hopefully I can spend next weekend on my spare SS install testing things. (even dealing with "Real Combat")
    Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance-David Mamet

    Old age and forgetfullness makes it . . .er, I forgot-Loose Cannon

  11. #11

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Loose Cannon View Post
    No, it was using Egypts 1000 florin Heavy Spearman. Supposedly, it's best infantry unit (based on stats and what it takes to build them.)
    I'm not asking you to take back your statement, just don't make blanket statements like that. Every mod is different. A basic, untrained (militia)unit should not be able to beat a decent unit. Just ran the test on Westeros and it shouldn't happen like that.
    I agree but this is for westeros and a clear example to make people seriously consider what they spend their money on.

    They are indeed the best, but they still fall in 1manvs1man against the Scoutarii. But they have 200 men per unit while scoutarii 80, thus they win against a full Scoutarii unit by quite a lot while being massively cheaper to make and keep. (each scoutarri guy have 5 attack 27 def, each Heavy spearman got 3 attack 16 def)

    Assuming im relatively correct how the engine works thats a value of 2 attack 10,8 def vs 3 attack 16 def. spears.
    ( scoutarii are 0,4 times as many as the spears )

    As to knights vs militia its pretty much a toss, the calculations i did was for Hedge knights and i shall correct that though militia does seem to prevail in AR even vs knights (their numbers are almost the same). But if they both have experience, militia wins hands down The knights have the better odds but still lose to the "breaking point" it seem while having almost identical value. Possibly because good stamina? Further indicating stamina affect AR values... interesting!
    Last edited by Mithridate; October 14, 2012 at 11:37 AM.
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

    Very nice, Getting a good picture everybody? So we look nice and handsome and thin? Thank you. -The God Emperor, creating world peace and unforgettable memes
    https://twitter.com/RitaPanahi/statu...48737210662912 <-- Unforgettable face.

  12. #12

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Ser Mithridate of the Pony Islands, it appears that we were both right

    Made some more tests. This time, as you suggested, using archers exclusively.

    Attachment 246195
    Attachment 246196

    (Dornish Archer stats unchanged on all the tests).

    After saving the game, and then reloading:

    Attachment 246197

    No surprises here.

    Quit the game, tweaked a bit. Reloaded.

    Attachment 246198
    Attachment 246199

    Yep, melee attack can count. However:

    Attachment 246200
    Attachment 246201



    I can't help but think the only reasonable answer is that in autoresolve, only the higher attack is taken into account. The tremendously better results peasant archers got in the last test with their missile attack improved can likely be explained by this line from descr_campaign_db:

    Code:
            <separation_missile_add uint = "2"/>
    Quote Originally Posted by Loose Cannon View Post
    My plan is to fix BOTH files because both have an effect. Hopefully I can spend next weekend on my spare SS install testing things. (even dealing with "Real Combat")
    A remark regarding secondary hitpoints: they screw up siege battles most impressively. In AR (at least in Kingdoms and Kingdoms based mods) settlements have a certain number of attacks. That's all fine and dandy, quite a balanced and reasonable feature which never throws stupid results...

    Until you throw secondary hitpoints to the mix. And then it becomes hell to balance

    Units with secondary hitpoints screw AR siege results a lot. It's as if such units suddenly get OP when defending a settlement, but are not that strong in open field battles.
    Last edited by Hopelessly Hopeless; November 17, 2012 at 10:54 AM.
    "For myself, I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens; not as a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor, and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise."

  13. #13

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Nice work you Hopelessly Hopeless dandy Sansa fan xD Was there much of a difference in odds on the odds screen?

    The dornishmen should win almost every time, but they start losing when you give the archers a lot of missile attack you say...
    Then missile attack definetly is not ignored, but i wonder if its exchanged with the regular attack, or perhaps added (possibly with reductions?)

    I assume you tried this multiple time, splitting some other army before each new attempt
    to make sure you get a new outcome, this should not be needed but better safe than sorry

    Edit: assuming you do see a big difference on odds, could you check if buffing both attack AND missile attack add up? More or less than if only buffing one of them.
    Last edited by Mithridate; October 14, 2012 at 11:49 AM.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Let's see:

    Attachment 246264

    Original stats.

    Attachment 246265

    Peasant Archers 45 melee (does not show, but affects outcome).

    Attachment 246266

    Peasant Archers 45 missile (shows AND affects outcome more drastically than melee attack).

    Now both values modfied:

    Attachment 246267

    Attachment 246268

    Attachment 246269

    Nope, I think what the game does is choose the higher attack value. If both should be equal, then the primary attack is taken into account.

    That would raise the question, though, how would AR work with a bow unit with 3 missile, 3 melee, and 1 experience (making melee value 4) ? What value would be used? Unfortunately I can't make the test right now, but will do tomorrow.
    Last edited by Hopelessly Hopeless; November 17, 2012 at 10:54 AM.
    "For myself, I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens; not as a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor, and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise."

  15. #15
    Loose Cannon's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    How does a bow unit with one experience do in a a/r battle? Here's some funny from early SS French levy archers vs HRE spear militia first on medium, then vh battles. The spear militia was considered "broken" before they engaged the archers in melee. Now if you had fought the battle (as France) you would have lost most of the archers. Does anyone else consider this kind of result OBSCENE? Levy archers (with 1 exp) 2 melee, 1 missile and a big zero defense vs. 1 attack, 8 defense. I've seen similar results in the past in A/R and it always bothered me.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    this was an interesting read, we are modding with Hotseats in mind and the EDU is still in WiP stages. obviously 18 attack archers are out of the question but how would you guys build your edu? just a simple generalization like this:

    Spearmen have 10 attack and 15 defense in total or etc, to give us an idea what kind of range would be a safe and balanced stats. .
    Last edited by Toho; October 15, 2012 at 09:01 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: "How to Play in a Hotseat game?" FAQ

    Autoresolve stinks, man

    Stats in the enhanced version make enough sense I suppose. It is mostly a matter of secondary hitpoints for cavalry, correct balancing of descr_campaign_db, and a lot of playtesting and praying
    "For myself, I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens; not as a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor, and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise."

  18. #18

    Default Re: [FAQ] How to Play in a Hotseat Game

    Quick questions regarding common rules I've seen in hot seats but don't totally understand and don't want to break:

    -No destroying buildings in besieged settlements: From what I understand, if you're being sieged you shouldn't destroy your own buildings to prevent the siegers from profiting from it if they capture the settlement?
    -No sallying forth in a siege to deny your besieger the opportunity to sack your settlement: Can this be clarified please, for this little noob.
    -Armies defeated by a player (b) that comes after the original player (a)'s turn cannot move next turn, so if Tyrell defeats a Lannister army that army cannot move next turn. - Exception: Reinforcing armies in defense, even if defeated, don't lose movement points. So player 'a' should be allowed to move the army that reinforced another while in a fort and was defeated by 'b': So which army can't move next turn in that example, the Tyrell army or the Lannister army?

    Sorry if these are basic stuffs, I just don't want to run into it with assumptions alone.

  19. #19
    TheWitchKing's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [FAQ] How to Play in a Hotseat Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyjoy View Post
    Quick questions regarding common rules I've seen in hot seats but don't totally understand and don't want to break:

    -No destroying buildings in besieged settlements: From what I understand, if you're being sieged you shouldn't destroy your own buildings to prevent the siegers from profiting from it if they capture the settlement?
    -No sallying forth in a siege to deny your besieger the opportunity to sack your settlement: Can this be clarified please, for this little noob.
    -Armies defeated by a player (b) that comes after the original player (a)'s turn cannot move next turn, so if Tyrell defeats a Lannister army that army cannot move next turn. - Exception: Reinforcing armies in defense, even if defeated, don't lose movement points. So player 'a' should be allowed to move the army that reinforced another while in a fort and was defeated by 'b': So which army can't move next turn in that example, the Tyrell army or the Lannister army?

    Sorry if these are basic stuffs, I just don't want to run into it with assumptions alone.
    - You're always allowed to destroy the buildings in a settlement, except if the settlement is under siege.
    - Sometimes when a settlement is under siege, the player who is under siege attacks the sieger. This way the garrison in the city gets destroyed and the sieger automaticly takes the city. This is to deny the sieging player an opportunity of sacking or exterminating the settlement.
    - This rule sounds kinda complicated, but it's basicly: If you defeat an army, the player isn't allowed to move the defeated army, when his turns comes up.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: [FAQ] How to Play in a Hotseat Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyjoy View Post
    Quick questions regarding common rules I've seen in hot seats but don't totally understand and don't want to break:

    -No destroying buildings in besieged settlements: From what I understand, if you're being sieged you shouldn't destroy your own buildings to prevent the siegers from profiting from it if they capture the settlement?
    -No sallying forth in a siege to deny your besieger the opportunity to sack your settlement: Can this be clarified please, for this little noob.
    -Armies defeated by a player (b) that comes after the original player (a)'s turn cannot move next turn, so if Tyrell defeats a Lannister army that army cannot move next turn. - Exception: Reinforcing armies in defense, even if defeated, don't lose movement points. So player 'a' should be allowed to move the army that reinforced another while in a fort and was defeated by 'b': So which army can't move next turn in that example, the Tyrell army or the Lannister army?

    Sorry if these are basic stuffs, I just don't want to run into it with assumptions alone.
    - No destroying buildings if you are under siege, if you see the enemy approaching then you can freely destroy everything but if you are under siege then it is deemed unfair.
    It is not fun when you take for example Kings Landing and all the buildings have been destroyed so if you don't want that to happen you have to besiege it quickly. If the defending player scouts well then he still has a chance to destroy all the building before being besieged. Its a good rule

    - No sallying forth is quite easy, it means you can sally all you want but you have to win, if you lose then the attacker automatically takes the fortress and the attacking player doesn't have the chance to sack anymore. So sure try to sally forth but if you lose then load your turn because you know its not allowed, if you win its OK.

    - The Lannister army can't move because it has been defeated by a player (Tyrell) that played its turn after the Lannister player.

    EDIT: NINJA'd

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