Great battles of Shingen and Kenshin?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

So, I hear that Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin are both some amazing commanders and tacticians, apparently both won some amazing decisive victories. But I am wondering what were Kenshin and Shingen's amazing battles. For example Nobunaga had Okehazama, Anegawa, Nagashima and Nagashino as his greatest victories (aside from others). But what were the great battles for Kenshin and Shingen; cause for Kenshin all I know is 4th Kawanakajima and Tedorigawa but did he do anything else (any other great battles, cause supposedly he was an extremely good tactician)? As for Shingen all I know is Sezawa, Musashi-Matsuyama and Mimasetoge but he also had some other less spectacular moments such as Mikatagahara and Kawanakajima, so did he do any other great battles and what did he do against the Hojo?

I am just asking all of these questions cause I want to know more about these two guys.

[shikken]

You've pretty much listed all their "great" battles. They had others but none quite so famous. Kenshin was responsible for the Siege of Odawara against the Hojo to protect Uesugi Kenshin who eventually adopted Kenshin hence his name change from Nagao to Uesugi. He was also responsible for conquering Etchu after defeating the Shiina and Jinbo clans. The only other "great" battle of Shingen fought and actually lost was the Battle of Uedahara in which 7000 Takeda men faced off against 3000 Murakami men and were defeated. It's notable due to the fact that it was the first field battle in Japan where guns were used in this case though inferior Chinese matchlocks.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Any details on Kenshin's campaign in Etchu against Shiina and Jinbo?

So did Kenshin or Shingen fight the Hojo in any field battles? Cause from what I see Mimasetoge was Shingen trying to retreat and had to break his way through the Hojo at Mimasetoge. Did the Hojo only lock themselves in their castles and never fight?

[shikken]

Not a lot and it wasn't actually a campaign so much as a series of curious and otherwise poorly covered events that could easily be interpreted as less than honorable on Kenshin's part. Apparently Kenshin knew the clan leaders Shiina Yasutane and Jinbo Nagamoto and when the two become rivals Kenshin became a mediator for them perhaps genuinely believing he could resolve their dispute peacefully. He spent close to half his life engaging in politics between the two even though he eventually crushed them like ants suggesting that he really did want to resolve their dispute rather than just conquer them. Why bother with politics if he was that much more powerful? He eventually sided with the Shiina and easily crushed the Jinbo possibly having grown fed-up with the latter, decades later he had Yasutane assassinated by a samurai named Kojima Motoshige possibly because he had grown sick of Yasutane as well.

The Sengoku Hojo are actually different from the Kamakura Hojo that defeated the Mongols. The original Hojo clan's 900 members committed seppuku when the Ashikaga came to the power, the Sengoku Hojo merely took the name to increase their prestige and then in recognition of the Hojo's anti-Mongol walls seemingly dedicated themselves to castle warfare. So as far as I can tell most of the Hojo's battles consisted of hide in a castle, shoot at the enemy, attack another castle, take that castle, then shoot at the enemy from said castle. And then have a long drawn out party: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_o...ara_%281590%29. To their credit the Hojo were great castle builders and siege engineers. Actually the Uesugi were also great castle fighters but you don't see that in the game because of how famous Kenshin was as a monk warrior.

The Hojo did fight a few pitch field battles but not against Takeda and apparently not without a castle to run back to. You can really tell the Hojo loved their castles . It's worth noting though that the Hojo and Takeda fought at the Battle of Omosu but this was a naval battle so I don't know if that counts. The only Uesugi-Hojo field battle that I know of is the Battle of Ozawahara but this was against the pre-Kenshin Uesugi so I don't know if that counts either.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Battle of Omosu was a Katsuyori fail, I don't know why the landlocked Takeda wanted to compete with someone who already had a fleet.

Also, I believe Hojo Soun was the most popular daimyo in the early part of the Sengoku Jidai, followed by the Uesugi who controlled most of the Hojo regions as well in the late 1400's (they did have one of the best generals of the early Sengoku Jidai; Ota Dokan).

[shikken]

Battle of Omosu was a Katsuyori fail, I don't know why the landlocked Takeda wanted to compete with someone who already had a fleet.

Another one? Not surprising though since it is Katsuyori. I believe the motivation behind naval pursuits was naval supply lines. Between roads and and the coast the waterways were a far superior mode of transport in terms of speed and tonnage particularly when you consider how mountainous Japan is. The Takeda were famous as road builders and supply line strategists, controlling naval lines was seen by them as the perfect way to bring supplies to distant parts of the country quickly.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I know that Kenshin and the Shiina beat the Jinbo at Toyama castle (the Jinbo capital) on March 3, 1560 and captured their capital, thereby making the Jinbo Uesugi vassals. Any information on this battle or any info on this Etchu thing anywhere? There's gotta be something somewhere on the battle of Toyama in 1560 or the battle of Matsukura in 1575.
There should also be information on Uesugi Kenshin's battles during the Nagao clan's succession war, particulaly how kenshin defended Tochio castle when he was 15 or when he defeated the rebel Hidetada at Kurotaki in 1546 or even when he defeated his brother.

Hard to believe that Kenshin only fought 3 major battles while Hideyoshi, Nobunaga, Shingen, the Date, the Shimazu, the Hojo and
Ieyasu fought lots more.

[Heiro de Bodemloze]

Firsty, Mikatagahara and Kawanakajima were not "less spectacular". They were the largest battles Shingen fought. At Kawanakajima the Takeda wielded 20,000 men and at Mikatagahara 30,000. Mikatagahara was a masterpiece of field tactics by Takeda Shingen, using his ferocious cavalry just the way they should, there is a reason it is called a classic cavalry battle. Only a clever ruse from Ieyasu saved him from total annihalition. At Kawanakajima, he made the Uesugi retreat though the battle was mostly even. He would have had total victory if not Kenshin had come down before his forces could attack them.

Mimasetoge was more of a skirmish, where the Takeda who retreated after hearing Kenshin was no longer idle in Echigo from Odawara, which they had only besiged for a few days. Shingen had made a large blunder by letting two of the large castles stand and move on to Odawara, so these forces attacked him on his way back. A cavalry charge by Yamagata Masakage saved them however. Shingen had 50,000 or so with him on campaign, but only 10,000-15,000 fought with him at Mimasetoge.

Kenshin's main battles were Tedorigawa and Kawanakajima, though he fought many smaller campaigns against both the Hojo (he too reached Odawara, but had to retreat) and the Jinbo etc.


If you want I can write more, but that's the essence of it. I would advice reading all of Ying's articles, she knows most of all at TWC. Also I do have a Takeda story in my sig :whilsting:. Next chapter is Kawanakajima battle.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

But Mimasetoge was also a scene of unorthodox cavalry use that beat the Hojo even though it was perhaps not too important and was a smaller scale battle.
Mikatagahara seemed pretty lame to me especially since Shingen has the largest army he's ever assembled (only leaving like 3000-5000 men in Kai) and he outnumbers Ieyasu more than 2-1 and doesn't even get a Total Vicory, the fact that Ieyasu was still standing astounds me.

I actually just really want to know about Kenshin's conquest of Etchu and the battle of Toyama against the Jinbo and the battle of Matsukura against the Shiina.
I would also like to know about Kenshin's defeat of his brother Harukage and his taking of Kurotaki fort in his battle against Harukage's reatiner Hidetada. Uesugi's campaign against the Ashina is less recognized but he only got some border forts, destroyed an Ashina invasion and pretty much just did small scale battles while the Ashina merely tried to retreat for dear life.

[Heiro de Bodemloze]

http://books.google.no/books?id=pJHA...0etchu&f=false I got some results for Etchu on that one page 403.

Also, you could PM Erwin Rommel and ask him. He is really nice, and knows a lot so he will most likely be the best to give you an answer. My little knowledge is mostly based around the Takeda .

[Heiro de Bodemloze]

Just found this and thought you'd like it, money. Just follow the links http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=5551. Great stuff from what I've read so far.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Thank you I'm reading it right now.

[zhiphius]

So, I hear that Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin are both some amazing commanders and tacticians, apparently both won some amazing decisive victories. But I am wondering what were Kenshin and Shingen's amazing battles. For example Nobunaga had Okehazama, Anegawa, Nagashima and Nagashino as his greatest victories (aside from others). But what were the great battles for Kenshin and Shingen; cause for Kenshin all I know is 4th Kawanakajima and Tedorigawa but did he do anything else (any other great battles, cause supposedly he was an extremely good tactician)? As for Shingen all I know is Sezawa, Musashi-Matsuyama and Mimasetoge but he also had some other less spectacular moments such as Mikatagahara and Kawanakajima, so did he do any other great battles and what did he do against the Hojo?

I am just asking all of these questions cause I want to know more about these two guys.

From what i read, kenshin was never really interested in conquering japan. Which, if im correct, is one of the reasons he fought in "few major battles". He was mainly interested in the stability of echigo and again from what i read took the title of "protector of kanto".

One of the reasons for his campaign against Oda was because the shogun asked him too. Read up about the alliance against Nobunaga for more information.

Another reason is that the kanto area was in a deadlock between 4 powerful clans for a long time, even after the fall of imagawa, the takeda, hojo and uesugi effectily held each other in check.
There was also Ieyasu tokugawa, despite not having much power before after shingens fall he played a part in keeping the 3 clans in check as he allied with the necessary clan of the three to protect Oda's east flank which contributed in some ways to the 3 continuisly keeping each other in check.

Shingen himself was unable to launch a campaign to take kyoto until both the uesugi and hojo was occupied with other issues.


Uesugi Kenshin was reportedly a genius tactician, with the myth of his "invincible tactic" (ying wrote a article about this tactic around a year ago here on the forums) and from what i remember only suffered 3 defeats during his career and those 3 was outside of his control.

Again, i believe the major reason not many "big battles" is tied to kenshin is that he wasnt interest in the conquest of the land, and the deadlock created by the 4 (later 3) powerful clans of the kanto area.
And as stated i believe Ieyasu's relationships with the takeda and hojo also played a role.

You may correct me if im wrong though

edit: as a sidenote, livingstandard in echigo increased drastically after kenshin was made the head of the uesugi clan ^^

[zhiphius]

But Mimasetoge was also a scene of unorthodox cavalry use that beat the Hojo even though it was perhaps not too important and was a smaller scale battle.
Mikatagahara seemed pretty lame to me especially since Shingen has the largest army he's ever assembled (only leaving like 3000-5000 men in Kai) and he outnumbers Ieyasu more than 2-1 and doesn't even get a Total Vicory, the fact that Ieyasu was still standing astounds me.

I actually just really want to know about Kenshin's conquest of Etchu and the battle of Toyama against the Jinbo and the battle of Matsukura against the Shiina.
I would also like to know about Kenshin's defeat of his brother Harukage and his taking of Kurotaki fort in his battle against Harukage's reatiner Hidetada. Uesugi's campaign against the Ashina is less recognized but he only got some border forts, destroyed an Ashina invasion and pretty much just did small scale battles while the Ashina merely tried to retreat for dear life.

Ieyasu was humiliated by shingen (well he didnt stand a chance afterall), he received only token aid from nobunaga (3000 men?). However he succesfully occupied Takeda by refusing to take the field after first loosing in battle, essentially he and his forces hold up inside their castles with no real easy way for shingen to oust them.
Then Shingen died ^^

There's also the issue of shingen never wanting to battle ieyasu in the first place, he actually sent a message to ieyasu to grant him passage stating he had no intention of battling Ieyasu.

Mikatagahara is interesting read, its evident that Ieyasu didn't have a chance, yet the loyalty and bravery of his men allowed him and other persons to escape complete annihilitation.
Not to mention his decision to honor his alliance with Oda which we today see the fruits he gained from.

[Carl Jung was right]

I'm not exactly an expert on Japanese history (although I'm learning from these forums and elsewhere), so I have a question.

How well documented was this period in history? Were there some battles or campaigns which simply weren't recorded, destroyed later, or are lost in Japanese archives somewhere? This is a huge problem for historians that even relatively recent history tends to get obfuscated (the account of China's history for instance, is heavily fragmented and often contradictory due to later generations trying to rewrite the past to suit political or ideological agenda).

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Good question, from what I gather there are many campaigns of lesser important clans which are only mentioned or barely touched upon. Information from before Nobunaga, Shingen and Kenshin is extremely scarce, but the major clans in the time of these guys are greatly touched upon. There are some exceptions such as the battle of Tedorigawa in which Kenshin defeats Nobunaga; there are only like two primary sources for this battle and neither of the two are that informative, the third source is an Oda source and merely acknowledges that it happened but says nothing else about it.
Other characters are barely even recorded such as Nobunaga's wife, the absolute happened to her cause I really would like to find out but no one even gives a concise answer.