PunitorMaximus' Russo-Turkish War of 1877/78 Mod

[ComnenusTheOne]

grrrrrrrrrreat work! very handy!
factions & units will be added during the next week

And as usual i will be here to complain and point you in the right direction.

Dont forget to use the stuff from your TWTEAW. They are quite fitting in the era. Plus it's easier now. Most artillery still has the older architecture (that is, a chassis, an axis, two wheels, the gun and a levie to be dragged). No machine guns of any sort etc.

Now, coming to think about it.... what kind of tactics shall be represented? Surely we still have the frontal assault who, even with breech loaders were quite effective (except Pleven... there it was.... oh well). But even though it was "line" infantry, the said line wasnt exactly a tight phalanx similar to muzzle loading warfare, and besides, now soldiers could kneel and fire. Good representation of that? Perhaps using the animations from TWTEAW, but in different formations?

[Tango12345]

No machine guns of any sort etc.

Not strictly true-the Ottomans and Russians both had Gatling Guns, but used them in action relatively rarely (the Russians only had them for fortress defence by now anyway).

[ComnenusTheOne]

Well, yeah.... most likely, but since you said they werent broadly used. And besides a Gatling gun isnt as effective as a machine gun.

Editing (because of reasons):

The idea of a breechloader is that it allowes you to kneel and reload, thus rendering standing up an obsolete tactic. So you need to get the TWTEAW animation back. However, the formation would need to be alot tighter than it is in TWTEAW. Still operating and advancing as light infantry, but less space between them (the British tactic in Isandlwana as shown in movie will fool you in that case, because the British were facing a melee mostly infantry force, their battle stance was irrelevant while they were shooting).

Also, a breechloader without magazine, can fire 12 rounds per minute at the most ideal. Thats a round every 5 seconds. So the reload times should be increased to represent that, maybe even further than 5 seconds because a battle isnt an ideal situation. So infantry reload times need to increase.

Cannon, well, the Balkan armies of that time had two types of cannon, their old muzzle loaders and some new breechloaders, though not alot of them, cannon costs alot more than rifles after all. So, in the Balkan case, you need at least two units of artillery. 1) A cheap, muzzle loading one, that fires 2-3 rounds per minute, relatively inaccurate etc and 2) a very expensive breechloader, that fires at least 5-6 times per minute and operates the same way you made them work.

Satisfying thoughts?

[PunitorMaximus]

so the bitchiz should all kneel?
not like in FotS all standing? according to the movies it seems they always tried to go to close combat by frontal charge, but as this is usually a bad idea we have to find another way.
i'll try to somehow make the first line kneel and fire at will and the second line standing and firing at will like the later modern units in FotS.

[ComnenusTheOne]

Well, you cant close up and melee someone by kneeling. You have to at least walk the way (kneelwalking can be a real pain for the muscular system). And obviously when facing an entrenched opponent, your only choice is to either storm or retreat, but in the open, firefights usually would require making yourself less targetable, so yeah, the bitchiz should kneel.

In FOTS, they still use muzzleloaders, so the "line" infantry still operated in the same way.

[PunitorMaximus]

united states marines use a breechloading rifle. in FotS they do breechload and use 2 rank fire.

[Greek Firethrower]

united states marines use a breechloading rifle. in FotS they do breechload and use 2 rank fire.

Because the Marines are european units (the guards use breechloading rifles, too).
The Europeans didn't sold the best weapons to Japan(like their old(HMS Warrior ), weak ships). I guess the Line Infantry use Minié-projectiles.

btw:

Effects:
Greek Firethrower
The best modding partner i had so far! Rep+ him!

Thankyou

[PunitorMaximus]

Because the Marines are european units (the guards use breechloading rifles, too).
The Europeans didn't sold the best weapons to Japan(like their old(HMS Warrior ), weak ships). I guess the Line Infantry use Minié-projectiles.

thats exactly what im talking about

Thankyou

true story! bist mir am längsten geblieben, hast am meisten abgeliefert und dein zeug selber verbessert. obwohl ich schon mit dem minimum zufrieden gewesen wäre weil ich bei den effekten nix kann


considering firing: first row does not kneel, thats impossible for me at the moment(im learning), but count von orlok told me how to make all ranks fire(standing). lik emass fire but fire at will.

[Greek Firethrower]

true story! bist mir am längsten geblieben, hast am meisten abgeliefert und dein zeug selber verbessert. obwohl ich schon mit dem minimum zufrieden gewesen wäre weil ich bei den effekten nix kann

Man tut was man kann Ich würde gern mehr machen, aber habe leider keine Zeit (Danke G8!!!! ).

[ComnenusTheOne]

considering firing: first row does not kneel, thats impossible for me at the moment(im learning), but count von orlok told me how to make all ranks fire(standing). lik emass fire but fire at will.

I still dont get why would they stand up and fire, when the breech allows them to reload while kneeling.... i still advocate for the bitchiz to kneel and fire.

[PunitorMaximus]

however, they dont seem to like to kneel when firing

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

im even thinking of adding the prone anim



look at the background: tight deployed block firing in prone position!

[ComnenusTheOne]

Errrrmmmmmm.... you do understand that in all these occassions, the defenders are actually either entrenched or behind "something".

[PunitorMaximus]

the guys ON the wall and the blocks on the 3rd pic(very TW style!) are on OPEN field.
on the first pic there are also groups of turk infantry standing face to face with advancing russians firing a VOLLEY TOGETHER like the line infantry began to do nearly 2 centuries ago.
its obvious to you, as someone who served 3 years in a modern army, that firing in lines is a stupid tactic, especially when both sides have breechloading rifles.
but you forget that the last big conflict was the franco-prussian war in 1870/71. in that times they used muzzle- and breechloaders, but although(or because of that) they used outdated tactics both sides took heavy casualties.
even the british in the boer wars (1880/81 and 1899-1902) tried the "thin red line" tactic against khaki-clothed, well-hidden boer snipers, that knew the terrain like the back of their hand. they tried to combine it with the german artillery tactics in the franco-prussian war: to bring artillery as close to the front as possible, covered by infantry groups. as a result the boers took out the artillery crew and it wasnt anymore possible to operate the guns. invisible boers(smokeless gunpowder) where the reason for the british army in ww1 wearing khaki uniforms. in fact the british fought in ww1 like the boers a decade ago.
so i think proning infantry firing at will, reloading about 5 seconds, are very appropriate. and it looks awesome BTW

[carricanta]

Awesome! +rep

[panzerschreck]

SOME SCREENS


and

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

here

[PunitorMaximus]

wow awesome screens!
today in the afternoon i'll upload version 1.1 with musket smoke and all ranks fire at one time.
meaning the 2. and 3. line are firing trough every gap in the lines in front of them.
reloading is increased to 5-6 seconds now. depends on the unit and situation
gun batteries are lowered from 16 to 8 pieces. or should i keep using 16 pieces?
tell me your opinion

[panzerschreck]

wow awesome screens!
today in the afternoon i'll upload version 1.1 with musket smoke and all ranks fire at one time.
meaning the 2. and 3. line are firing trough every gap in the lines in front of them.
reloading is increased to 5-6 seconds now. depends on the unit and situation
gun batteries are lowered from 16 to 8 pieces. or should i keep using 16 pieces?
tell me your opinion

I would say 12, it's not too big and not to low. Is there something, a mod, to make the AI more agressive? I find that ennemies are particulary kind with me...

[ComnenusTheOne]

Well i suppose that idea does have some merit. I guess its practically true, because at the moment, the infantry operates with infrared and AP rounds, passing through walls like molten butter, but people still get behind wall cover any way they can, although in fact with this firepower it IS an obsolete tactic. I guess it's the same thing. They didnt quite know how to use the new weapons.

Might i suggest this then: two positions, one standing, one prone. Standing in some sort of formation (don't make them too tight or two formal lines), you can fire with relatively ok accuracy and can fire and maneouver. Prone position, they get down on their stomachs, they aim, they fire, but they cant move. Is that possible to happen? Also if you could decrease the accuracy while in prone position (IF possible) it would be even better.

I guess a kneeling position already exists when a unit is in defilade (for example, the stone walls on Algeria map, lovely tactical interest for breechloaders) so you dont need an extra anymore.

[weirdoascensor]

Well, Punitor...why dont you borrow Primergy's Whitworth Rifle models in ACW Brothers vs. Brothers? Small modifications to it should make it looks like Krupp C series Breechloaders...

[PunitorMaximus]

Prone position, they get down on their stomachs, they aim, they fire, but they cant move. Is that possible to happen?

sure, like in TWTEAW! the game makes proning infantry automatically less accurate.

Well, Punitor...why dont you borrow Primergy's Whitworth Rifle models in ACW Brothers vs. Brothers? Small modifications to it should make it looks like Krupp C series Breechloaders...

interesting...i wasnt aware of that! i´ll have a look!