Delaying tactics

[Metellus]

Am interested in getting opinions on what is the best way to delay an enemy force. I have the Egyptians who repeatly assault my "fortress" cities Pegamum and Halicarnassus, my only presence in Asia Minor. I keep repelling their assaults but the sieges and the resulting discontent are weakening the cities and I am starting to see revolts on the horizon. Not to mention the wear and tear on my units. Resupply from Greece is haphazard as I have other enemies... its civil war times thanks to me! One tactic I used was a fortress just down the road from Pergamum with a large force but they got whittled down easier (no large stone walls) and narrowly avoided a little 'Korsun Pocket'. I also notice units aren't building in cities when they are besieged (or is this just my imagination?)... stuff gets repaired but that's about all. Would appreciate some strategies

[Trajan]

Moved to the Total War Battle Planning sub-forum.

[NobleNick]

...I also notice units aren't building in cities when they are besieged (or is this just my imagination?)... stuff gets repaired but that's about all...

No, you are not imagining things. I haven't quite figured this out, since in some games training and/or building does occur during a siege. (Or is this just MY imagination?)

I dirty trick I use is to park an all-cav force out in front of the city. Even if you don't know how to kick the aggressors into the dust, it should be fairly easy to just move your cav around the battlefield and avoid an engagement until the battle timer runs out. Since the enemy has not totally destroyed or routed your force, they are forced to withdraw on the campaign map.

Another strategy that works well against the Egyptians, is to do an amphibious assault against their cities in the Eastern Med. Exterminate populace (gives you lots of money) and raze all buildings, especially the temple (more money) and move on to do the same with another city. Then those Egyptian stacks will be busy recapturing rebel cities instead of trying for yours.

Yet another trick that has worked for me is to build the highest grade of stone wall you can, and man the walls with lots of archers. When besieged, sally out on the first turn, before theenemy gets a chance to build seige equipment. On the battle map, the defenders can virtually always be lured within distance of your archers and the towers, which can then slaughter the enemy. After pummeling them good, force the remnants to rout with your fresh ground troops or cav. I haven't done this very often; but it has worked for me every time I've tried it. Sometimes the towers, alone, can deal out 60% losses to a full stack of quality enemy troops, before they decide that they have had enough. I take close to zero losses. Be careful. You MUST destroy or rout every enemy unit or you lose the city and all units in it.

Hope that helps.

[Professor420]

I just defend bridges in near the cities instead of the cities themselves.

Otherwise, for the Egyptians, as Nick said, landing an amphibious force at Alexandria, and taking Memphis and their other city there, will cripple them. And then you can pull back the army, or park them there at the Suez-canal area and seal off Africa.

[Metellus]

until the battle timer runs out

I never get battle timers in mine, is there any way to turn them on. Would certainly be useful on the defensive...

I'll try the Alexandria thing (thanks for all tips so far), as I have a force in Siwa (Libya) and Cyrene (Cyrenaicia) which would make it easier, although I'll want to get to cities in the heart of his empire.

Defending a bridge would be great but I think the closest one to Pergamum is halfway to Ancyra, wouldn't the Egyptians just go around me and attack the bigger target, Pergamum? Or is it not that intelligent?

[NobleNick]

I never get battle timers in mine, is there any way to turn them on... ?

I have played in at least 6 campaigns in RTW 1.5 "vanilla," some of them succession or Swap games; and the timer came with all of them. I would have to say that the default is to have a timer; and if you do not have one it is because you changed a setting. So, that answers the last part of your question; but I don't know if you can change the setting mid-game (well, you can change it; but will it take effect for the game in progress? I would be surprised if the setting you want is not in your preferences file, whiich is named (I am guessing at the syntax) preferences.txt.

Defending a bridge would be great but I think the closest one to Pergamum is halfway to Ancyra, wouldn't the Egyptians just go around me and attack the bigger target, Pergamum? Or is it not that intelligent?

Probably not and probably not.

Addressing your last question, first: Although the A.I. in RTW 1.5 is touted as much improved over earlier versions; I, having only encountered 1.5, would describe it (and have described it) as "rat-brained."

To your first question: Helicarnassus is the bigger target, because it controls a wonder.

You should be able to make Egypt pay big-time for trying to siege you, since they are not particularly good at siege warfare. What kind of troop mix are they bringing; and do they approach from north of the river and try to cross the bridge next to Heli, or do they come along the coast, south of the river? And what kind of walls and troops do you have? It seems to me that with stone walls and enough archers to take out all the Pharoah's Bowmen and any other ranged units; that 6 to 8 units of upgraded Armored Hoplites could then plug the streets leading to your city center and skewer anything that was foolish enough to try a frontal attack.

[Severous]

Hi

Battle timer. Its one of the options you can set when you start your imperial campaign. In the following screenshot from our Greek campaign we have the option 'No Battle time limit' unticked...thus we do have a battle time limit.


As for Egypt. Any well developed and big faction is going to produce lots of troops and fighting them as they appear does nothing to stop them appearing again and again. So as others above have said you need to take out their economic heartlands to stem the flow. Many enemies are like this..strong on the front line but weak further back.

Sally from your city. Irrespective of the quality of walls you can sally out when beseiged. Use cavalry to lure the enemy to the wall towers and missile troops (inside or on the walls). You dont need to kill or rout the enemy. I regulary kill just a few men or units. Once the battle timer runs out the battle will be a draw. Your general will replenish his bodyguard (no other troops retrain nor buildings constructed). Next turn you can repeat again. Strategy works well unless Egyptians have brought lots of archer chariots. If desparate and a bit of a gamey tactic, you can sally multiple times each turn with the same garrison...just save and reload and the game forgets you have already sallied this turn.

[Metellus]

Battle timer

Alas, I think I turned it off... (thanks for the screenshot), will try the text file, as it would be really useful... the maxim "draws automatically go to the defender" comes to mind, and it saves time!

just save and reload and the game forgets you have already sallied this turn

Alas I have a "Dead is dead" mindset, so I really dislike the save and reload routine

Helicarnassus is the bigger target, because it controls a wonder

I notice wonders only work for a set amount of turns... I suppose they "refresh" if I lose the city and re-invade later?

What kind of troop mix are they bringing; and do they approach from north of the river and try to cross the bridge next to Heli, or do they come along the coast, south of the river? And what kind of walls and troops do you have? It seems to me that with stone walls and enough archers to take out all the Pharoah's Bowmen and any other ranged units; that 6 to 8 units of upgraded Armored Hoplites could then plug the streets leading to your city center and skewer anything that was foolish enough to try a frontal attack.

Attacking Hali, they attack from the north across the river. Pergamum; from the direction of Ancyra.

I recall plenty of Pharoahs Bowmen, Desert Axemen, Nubian Spearmen and Chariots, which attack last-ditch. When they first started sieging my cities, the would go for the front door and all get burned on the way through; now it seems they are smarter and (since they also have onagers now) seem to want to pull down my walls brick by &%$# brick! They also have sap points... very hard to stop the sappers with archers before they start tunnelling, and once they're in there, hey presto wall fallls down every time! Expensive repairs.

Another problem I don't have enough archers (only about 2-3 units Archer Aux/Cretan per city) because neither city currently is capable of producing them (so I have to ship them over from Athens). So while my archers and the wall arrows take out quite a few invaders, it always ends up a battle over the walls. Never thought of abandoning them and fighting 'street-by-street, will try that... seems a bit hairy to me though. Haven't ever had access to Armoured Hoplites... I'm Julii so best hoplites I can get are mercenary, although those are certainly worth their weight!

[NobleNick]

Attacking Hali, they attack from the north across the river. Pergamum; from the direction of Ancyra.

I recall plenty of Pharoahs Bowmen, Desert Axemen, Nubian Spearmen and Chariots... They also have sap points...

Another problem I don't have enough archers (only about 2-3 units Archer Aux/Cretan per city) So...it always ends up a battle over the walls. Never thought of abandoning them and fighting 'street-by-street, will try that... seems a bit hairy to me though... I'm Julii so best hoplites I can get are mercenary, although those are certainly worth their weight!

Oh. I assumed you were playing as Greek Cities. This does change the advice I would give: Do not just retreat to the city square. Fight at the walls.

When fighting off a siege, I will look at what the enemy has and try to develop a reasonable plan. They might have, say, 3 siege towers 2 rams and a sap point. So I figure out that I can spare enough cav out the side gate to take care of the side gate ram. Archers, towers and hot oil will take care of the main ram. That leaves 3 towers and a sap point that I likely will not be able to stop: 4 entry points. So figure out how to defend all these points. Two Legionary Cohort on either side of each entry point will do it. (a team of 2 LC on the walls can kill an incredible number of attackers, since one unit always has the rear attack advantage.) So 8 units of LC is plenty in this case.

Often, though, the Egyptians will attack with multiple stacks. 12 Foundry-upgraded Legionary Cohort, 6 Foundry-upraded Archer Auxilia and a Foundry-upgraded General and Legionary Cav, are capable of defending Epic walls against any conceivable attack by up to 2 full stacks of Egyptians.

Yes, 2-3 archers is not enough. I feel comfortable with 5 to 6, if I have large or epic stone walls and the enemy only has one stack. My goal is to cause AT LEAST 30% casualties before any enemy tower, ladder or ram gets to the walls.

Pump up one city's ability to produce archers, and the other's ability to produce Legionary Cohort; and then ferry them between the two cities. Pergamum is tough to keep isolated. For Helicarnassus: Defending the bridge just north of town should keep your city from being sieged. With lots of archers and Legionary Cohort, maybe an Onager, and the right tactics, you should be able to hold off the enemy there, with a kill ratio of at least 5:1 on HARD.

Of course, as has been said by most, these attacks will not stop until you rip open the belly of the machine that is producing them: bocade their ports if you have the ships to do it; but most importantly, get into the lightly defended Egyptian heartland with the best troops you can crank out, and make them forget all about that Turkish front.

Hope that helps.

[Severous]

Quote:
I notice wonders only work for a set amount of turns... I suppose they "refresh" if I lose the city and re-invade later?

Wonders work for ever but there is an additional happiness effect during the first 4 turns of ownership. I have wondered if losing the city and recapture would refresh this bonus effect. Anyone know?

Velites have a bonus against chariots. Here they fire from a wall top against Egyptian beseigers during a sally.


If you have artillery as defender you can fire through open gates. Most my losses were from routing cavalry.

[Metellus]

Thanks for the tactics, guys... although I'm sure you'll appreciate I can but only work with what I have... I expect Herius Pontus (my "man" in Pergamum) dreams of vast legions gleaming in the sun, awaiting his command (and that perhaps his walls are a little higher) but alas dreams will not help him now and his reports to the capital are becoming less and less frequent... <smacks his head> Its only a game, gotta remember that! But yeah, Pergamum is hard to hold without constant replenishment. I have sent some reinforcements over from Halicarnassus (due to reach in 1 turn) after using some advice and sallying in response to the latest Egyptian siege attempt (at Hali) which I broke. My forthcoming plan is to either a.) Attack lightly defended Alexandria and/or Memphis (since I own Cyrenaicia and Libya, I'll attack with some reasonable forces I have there...) although that is risky because there is a roving Egyptian army thereabouts, and the cities if unoccupied, could rebel; or b.) edit the diplomacy settings file and get Egypt to agree to a ceasefire by playing God... my rationale being that they have been at my throats from day one, even though I gave them gifts and whatever... I can understand Scipii and Brutii hate my guts for declaring civil war, but Egypt doesn't make sense.

Oh which reminds me, in another part of the land, I am sieging Rome with a full stack and there is about a half-stack of SPQR within the walls. There's a Scipii full stack within a turn's march, although they haven't made any moves to threaten me (I expect that once I actually take Rome). Any advice for laying siege to Rome? I have 2 rams and 4 towers already, the city has about 7 turns before it caves but I'm worried about that roving Scipii army (they could also use the opportunity to slip past and attack Arminium and/or Arretium). Should I just give it a bash (Epic walls, oh my word!)?

EDIT: I meant the cities in Libya and Cyrenaicia could rebel. I intend for Memphis and Alex to rebel if I capture them, I'll be exterminating the population and burning down all the buildings, lets see them deal with that!

[Professor420]

Don't edit the game files, you'll just feel guilty for the rest of the game.
-How much of a threat is the roving Egyptian army? Being attacked in a field battle with equal forces is almost a guarenteed win, even in the desert. And you're not going to need more than a few units to burn down Memphis and Alexandria if they're not well defended, which they almost certainly aren't. I would take your chances, and rush to take down the heartland, and at the same time push out from Hali and Pergamum. Once you break Egypt's back, make sure to keep on the pressure and take them down up north as well (don't forget to build a Shrine in Alexandria and Memphis before you leave so they keep rebelling and Egypt can't build religious structures). Momentum plays a very large role in conquering, once you have it, keep it, especially against AI (a MP campaign may be different). Just use your advantage where you'll keep an advantage, ie, don't bother attacking garrisonned cities.
-As for your Middle Eastern cities, just build some Peasant units to garrison and do what you can to keep them happy (even destroying some non-Roman buildings) and make sure to get every last fighting man to the Nile.
-As for Rome, my suggestion is to do some further evaluation. Pure numbers in a seige battle don't mean much. If you have superior melee units to take the walls (Arcani, Urbans), and they don't, then attack ASAP and get access to those awesome buildings. If your best troops are about equal, it'll probably take you at least a couple more turns to build enough seige equipment to have an advantage (build lots of ladders if you need to, and put them outside of the flashpoint to keep a constant flow of troops fighting at the walls), at which point, I would personally just wait it out. Even if Scipii attack, AFAIK SQPR won't reinforce them, since armies in cities can't leave unless they Sally. So you'll be in a 1v1 defense, which you should definately be able to win. If Scipii moves around you, you'll still be a turn or two or three up on them, and can probably take Rome AND then move to attack the Scipii army seiging your city before they attack the town (and if the town is moderately defended they probably won't even attack). Bottom line is, attacking Epic Walls unless you have much better troops is going to result in ALOT of casualties.