Lesson 3 - Message board

[Robin de Bodemloze]

Lesson 3: Message board topics

- How do you decide where to cut off between chapters, and do you think there can be an over-abundance of cliffhangers?

- How do you decide what to put in an epilogue, and what to put in the last chapter? Is there a big difference?

[The Kybrothilian]

We have 4 message board topics now?

[Radzeer]

Hehe, this happens when the two of us are on the opposite sides of the globe.

These are the message board topics from Lesson 3:

Message board topics
- Do you really need dialogs in an AAR?
- Discuss the choice between game-style ending and plot-style ending

Now we have four topics. The goal is to say something clever about at least two of those.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

Oops. Sorry about that

[The Kybrothilian]

- Do you really need dialogs in an AAR?

Well, yeah. After all, very few AARs are done so that dialogues are not needed. An AAR without them would probably involve just the main character speaking in his head how the discussions with the other persons went, and show his often biased view on those characters. I don't think these sort of AARs do very well on the part of character interactions. While it is interesting
to find out what the main character thinks of the others, a dialog is still needed by the reader to gain a neutral view on the other characters.

- Discuss the choice between game-style ending and plot-style ending

Game-style ending appears like something that only AARs interested in telling about the campaign progress would use. A plot-style ending serves the more story based AARs much better. Still, a game-style ending could actually be used to act as a time-limit in which the plot-style ending needs to be achieved in.

- How do you decide where to cut off between chapters, and do you think there can be an over-abundance of cliffhangers?

I usually end my chapters with the end of a meeting style, where one or more of the participants leave the room, leaving the rest behind to ponder things. Also, I use "announcement" endings (like commander saying "we march to place X soon.") at times. cliffhangers I think I haven't made use of at all so far. That said, no feature should ever be spammed, so an over-abundance of cliffhangers is indeed possible.

- How do you decide what to put in an epilogue, and what to put in the last chapter? Is there a big difference?

I never have managed to end one of my AARs, so I cannot say for sure here. The last chapter should mainly involve stuff about what happened to the character and/or his faction in the end, and if he's alive, what will he do next. An epilogue should take place in a much later time, perhaps so that the main characters child or grandchild accounts some of the things he/she did and his/her legacy as we

[Derpy Hooves]

Hehe, this happens when the two of our are on the opposite sides of the globe.

These are the message board topics from Lesson 3:

Message board topics
- Do you really need dialogs in an AAR?
- Discuss the choice between game-style ending and plot-style ending

Now we have four topics. The goal is to say something clever about at least two of those.

Answer 1: Well it depends. The definition of an AAR is After Action Report. You report on what happened in that action after the fact. That definition does not specify whether or not the report needs to be written as a fictional account or portray it as a nonfictional account. If it is portrayed as a nonfictional account, then it does not need dialog. If it is a fictional account then it should have dialog.
However, regardless, an AAR can only benefit from having dialog. I remember many years ago after having watched the movie the Grapes of Wrath, I tried picking up the book to read. However, I decided not to read it after seeing page after page of no dialog (obviously I would not mind today). Dialog expresses the feelings of the characters in the AAR, something a reader might be able to relate to.

Answer 2: Between the two, I favor the latter more. The game endings are usually going to be boring or bland. Player 1 is trying to have a game ending while Player 2 is trying to have a plot ending. How will Player 1 end his AAR? Most likely, when he has conquered the entire map or has been conquered, or if not TW then has played to the end of the game. Starting the game and ending the game, that is what a game ending is, and thus it is predictable. You, the reader, already know how Player 1 will end his AAR there is nothing exciting, except the different battles that could happen.

Now Player 2 does not have to play to the end of the game, only till he resolves the overarching conflict in the story (in a TW game, the only overarching conflict for Player 1 is "Will France become the ruler of all Europe, North Africa and the Middle East or will she be conquered?").

Thus of the two, Player 2 has the more interesting AAR.

[Paragon]

Message board topics
- Do you really need dialogs in an AAR?
- Discuss the choice between game-style ending and plot-style ending

- Well, since dialogs are merely people talking to each other, I think that as soon as you have too characters with a defined personality together, specially if they disagree at something, they should talk. As long as it is a narrative AAR and not a gamplay one.

Anyways, I don't want to look smug here or something, but I never got the problem with dialogue. You speak of it as if it was some kind of writing final boss, and people compliment the dialogue I write (although sometimes complain that it's not clear who's speaking, but I'm solving that ) when it isn't anything special, really.

Care to explain what makes it so hard for some people?

- Can't you have both if you want? I mean, you can have a behind the scenes telling how your world fared 50 years later and a "behind the scenes" post, or one of them, or neither. They are not mutually exclusive.

Lesson 3: Message board topics

- How do you decide where to cut off between chapters, and do you think there can be an over-abundance of cliffhangers?

- How do you decide what to put in an epilogue, and what to put in the last chapter? Is there a big difference?

- I cut between chapters when the word count becomes owerhelming Normally my updates are 3000 words long, and rearely they reach 4000. I try to keep that limit, since the two times I made them longer I got few comments out of reader laziness I guess. And I think cliffhangers are interesing because they are special. If you do it all the time, it's not a cliffhanger, but leaving the work halfway trough.

- For me, a last chapter is the end of the plot, and the epilogue is after the end. The good definition is that the final chapter is necessary for the story and better understanding of it, and the epilogue is not. Series as Harry Potter, or The Lord of the Rings, or whatever, had a few momments telling "now where are they now?" that were nice but not mandatory. Meanwhile, if the Lord of the Rings ended without the last chapter, with the ring 5 minutes from being destroyed...

[Radzeer]

- Well, since dialogs are merely people talking to each other, I think that as soon as you have too characters with a defined personality together, specially if they disagree at something, they should talk. As long as it is a narrative AAR and not a gamplay one.

Anyways, I don't want to look smug here or something, but I never got the problem with dialogue. You speak of it as if it was some kind of writing final boss, and people compliment the dialogue I write (although sometimes complain that it's not clear who's speaking, but I'm solving that ) when it isn't anything special, really.

Care to explain what makes it so hard for some people?

Dialogs are usually more difficult to write than standard narratives for a couple of reasons:
- Dialogs should resemble real life dialogs, but without many filler words. Listen how people talk, and in most cases it is not how dialogs are written, although it should follow the basic structure. It's a fine balance which is not always easy to find.
- Dialogs may give out more information on the situation or the characters than descriptions. The trick here is to avoid explaining things in dialogues, making it more real. If you are in an actual dialogue, many contextual things are obvious for you and you don't say it. In writing, you cannot see the context, so there is the temptation to write in into the dialogue. This should be avoided.
- Similarly, it is difficult to convey body language in written dialogues, which in most cases complement real life talk.
- Part of the context is the linguistic style, maybe accent the characters use. Sometimes this gets lost in dialogues. Other times it gets overemphasized to show authenticity. I mean how did people in the 13th century really speak? (Read Michael Crichton's Timeline for a good example on this.)

So I think dialogues are more difficult, because there are certain constraints you have compared to real life talk, and at the same time there are many opportunities to experiment with style. Overall, it can give you more, but one can screw up more as well. It's not rocket science of course, just takes practice.

[Paragon]

Dialogs are usually more difficult to write than standard narratives for a couple of reasons:
- Dialogs should resemble real life dialogs, but without many filler words. Listen how people talk, and in most cases it is not how dialogs are written, although it should follow the basic structure. It's a fine balance which is not always easy to find.
- Dialogs may give out more information on the situation or the characters than descriptions. The trick here is to avoid explaining things in dialogues, making it more real. If you are in an actual dialogue, many contextual things are obvious for you and you don't say it. In writing, you cannot see the context, so there is the temptation to write in into the dialogue. This should be avoided.
- Similarly, it is difficult to convey body language in written dialogues, which in most cases complement real life talk.
- Part of the context is the linguistic style, maybe accent the characters use. Sometimes this gets lost in dialogues. Other times it gets overemphasized to show authenticity. I mean how did people in the 13th century really speak? (Read Michael Crichton's Timeline for a good example on this.)

So I think dialogues are more difficult, because there are certain constraints you have compared to real life talk, and at the same time there are many opportunities to experiment with style. Overall, it can give you more, but one can screw up more as well. It's not rocket science of course, just takes practice.

-Well, Larry Niven one said "everyone talks first draft", but frankly, if you don't go too far, having aun urealistically polished dialogue seems fine to me. After all, repetition, stu-stut-stuttering, repetition, bad grammar, coughing, letting sentences halfway, repetition etc. are usually annoying to read, and I bet most people prefer reading half as long and a more comfortable reading over complete realism.
-I don't understand this. Is it about getting too long? After all, a few words can give a lot of information in the correct context.
-This I admit it is simplified, but as in the first point, just convert it to proper words, gestures usually don't mean essays
-Well, I, for one, use older words to represent a more formal speech, while more "modern" words are colloquial, because as I said before, making people talk even worse than a Shakespeare original is too annoying for the realism gained.

[Radzeer]

I'm not saying dialogs are impossible to write. All I was trying to say is that given the greater number of variations, it is easier to slip. Less of an issue in this genre than in fiction writing of course.

What I meant by the second point is dialogs sometimes include things that in writing may need to be told so that the reader could understand the plot, but would be unnecessary in RL conversation. Length is not an issue if there are enough things to say.

[Paragon]

Yes, but I mean that the part that "they should represent real life dialogues", if took too far, gets absurd. In the end, the four points seem to be about "How realistic am I going to do my dialogue?" more than about it being difficult.

As I said, my opinion is that it should be realistic enough not to get annoying to read, I dunno if someone thinks differently.

[Radzeer]

Oh, that part. I said "resemble" which is the typical advice you get in creative writing about being realistic. But I agree with what you said on that.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

Good responses. On chapter length I think the optimal length is about 2,000-3,000 words. It's long enough to form a decent story while not being too long and burdensome for both writer and reader.

Of course less experienced writers tend to write less, which is perfectly fine. In any case don't push a chapter to be longer for the sake of word count. Writing like that ends up feeling forced and jaded.

On dialogue my advice would be to think in character. Think about their needs/wants, hopes/fears, etc. Think what you'd do or say in their shoes - or what a friend or family member would say or do if the character is not one you personally relate to. Also remember that people talk differently depending on who they're talking to and their state if mind.

[Paragon]

I write more on the 3000-4000 mark and sometimes more and I am new here, does that mean that mean what when I am experienced I'll write entire AAR's on one chapter?

[The Kybrothilian]

I write more on the 3000-4000 mark and sometimes more and I am new here, does that mean that mean what when I am experienced I'll write entire AAR's on one chapter?

Who knows, maybe experience will make you write less instead.

[Paragon]

Who knows, maybe experience will make you write less instead.

That is what I'm trying, yes

Maybe the language barrier also means something, because I could write in three words what a native speaker could say in three... or something.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

I write more on the 3000-4000 mark and sometimes more and I am new here, does that mean that mean what when I am experienced I'll write entire AAR's on one chapter?

Try breaking up a chapter if it gets too long - you can use a cliffhanger to pace your writing - and readers do react positively to stuff like that sometimes. People get tired more easily reading on a screen versus a book, so it's probably not a great idea to have chapters any longer than what you already have. Having said that be careful how you break up the plot - I did that once and added what I thought was a logical break in the story, then Radzeer called me out for adding "advertisements in the middle of battle"

Who knows, maybe experience will make you write less instead.

More...concise

[Paragon]

It is funny because the non-teacher is more concise when we talk about being concise!

Now seriously, you can't always put a cliffhanger by cutting it up in the middle of the chapter as you said. And c'mon, lest not compare a chapter on paper, that can be 20 pages long, to one in an AAR that at most is in the 3-7 range not counting pics

[Robin de Bodemloze]

It is funny because the non-teacher is more concise when we talk about being concise!

Now seriously, you can't always put a cliffhanger by cutting it up in the middle of the chapter as you said. And c'mon, lest not compare a chapter on paper, that can be 20 pages long, to one in an AAR that at most is in the 3-7 range not counting pics

No-one says you have to do it all the time..

[Dance the older]

- Do you really need dialogs in an AAR?

- The simple answer, no. You don't need dialogue, but it definitely can help . There are many different writing styles, basically to the point where no one AAR can be the exact same as another. Some may use lots of dialogue, or little. Some AAR's may use no dialogue whatsoever. It all comes back to personal preference. In my opinion, dialogue definitely helps in writing a very good AAR, but it's not exactly a requirement.

I plan to always use dialogue to an extent, in many cases I have to restrict myself from writing too much dialogue.

But overall, if an AAR can be solely narrated without dialogue, and still be an intriguing read, with avid followers, then power to the AARtist for what I would see as a challenging AAR to write, without character to character conversations.

- Discuss the choice between game-style ending and plot-style ending

- Game-style endings can be the bane of a good plot-style ending. If a writer has dedicated alot of their AAR to the storyline, then it seems appropriate to give a plot-ending, regardless of the outcome in the game itself. Some stories end badly, but I think what many struggle with is having a successful ending for their AAR, as they see it successful, in many cases with the protagonist(s) coming out on top as the victors of whatever the good vs. evil battle is. In my opinion, some of the best stories to read are the unpredictable ones where it doesn't lead to a fairy tale ending as many do

- How do you decide where to cut off between chapters, and do you think there can be an over-abundance of cliffhangers?

- I think when a scene, time period, or scenario is completed, it would be a good catalyst to wrap up the chapter. I'm a firm believer in cliffhangers at the end of a chapter, and I'd even go as far as to say every chapter. I feel that cliffhangers entice the reader to continue, and can be used as a subconscious strategy to grasp the readers interest. I suppose there can be an overabundance of cliffhangers if you don't resolve each one before starting others. I believe chapter-long, or maximum 2-3 chapter long cliffhangers, unless continued at a later time (such as timewarp to a different area of the AAR's world).

If you do not resolve cliffhangers, but choose to continually leave them every chapter, I believe the reader can then become frustrated and may even stop reading the AAR altogether. Then again, I'm a firm believer in personal preference. If the AARtist does not entice his readers attention, then perhaps they need to conjure up a more appropriate method, such as less cliffhangers, and more indepth focus on the ones currently used.

Every chapter should be scrutinized in depth by the writer themselves to identify and downsides, or negatives about the style of reading that may not appeal to their readers/subscribers. But then again, first and foremost, a writer has to be happy with their own AAR, regardless of what others think. If they are most comfortable keeping chapters long, and having cliffhangers linger, than power to them, but I'm also a firm believer in appealing my future AAR to as many readers as possible.

- How do you decide what to put in an epilogue, and what to put in the last chapter? Is there a big difference?

- Well as far as I know, concerning epilogue/last chapter, is that they are one in the same. I guess it could be divided up to show different things.

For example, the "last chapter" could show and end to the main plot, perhaps the ultimate victory for the protagonist's side, in their good vs. evil battle. While the epilogue could explain where each character ends up, as some films oft do after the main story is concluded.

I would say there isn't a huge difference, as they are pretty much the same thing. If I were to do it in the style of;

Major Plot ending (last chapter)
Character endings (epilogue),

then I would probably do all my AAR-ending dialogue in the "epilogue", and mostly narrate the "last chapter".

I always envisioned myself ending my AAR with some witty comment from one of the main characters to another, as they parted separate ways (which will be narrated in this as well).

But that's just me