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Thread: Prussian Platoon Fire Under Fredrick the Great

  1. #21

    Default Re: Prussian Platoon Fire Under Fredrick the Great

    I find this extremely intriguing,

    "now i see your point, lordsith. im also using the "can_skirmish" = True for my Russo-Turkish war mod and my WW1 mod.
    this also allows the units to fire in all directions without reforming(as long traget is in range). when the battered unit flees or is extincted the unit reforms in the beaten enemies diection. which is very realistic
    but fire by rank is also cool. iŽd at least give it to the british grenadiers or improved line infantry.
    you know what i would really love to see? first line kneeling and 2nd line standing, firig at will . like in FotS or in ETW whenin square formation."

    "The only issue with that is that not all infantry actually skirmished-usually only light infantry battalions/companies. It would work out fine though as long as the units stay in their proper ranks. "




    "they do not skirmish you just change the "Can_Skirmish" ability in units_stats_lands_tables from "False" to "True". this doesnt gives the units the ability to skirmish(this happens in unit_to_ability_tables or something like this)! they just start to fire through every gap they can find in their own ranks. this allows the first 2-3 lines to fire at will. even in the tightest formation. its perfectly for mid and late 19th century warfare like US-civil war, seven weeks war, franco-prussian war, russo-turkish war,..."

    What i wonder here is if this will make FBR able to fire even if someone got stuck on a turf ?

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post12389261
    Last edited by poa; June 23, 2014 at 08:07 AM.
    My 6 2nd rates routed in horror from 1 brig + 1 5th rate on auto-resolve....

  2. #22

    Default Re: Prussian Platoon Fire Under Fredrick the Great

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post

    Nope! sorry it doesn't mean much to me at all. The ranges of muskets in this period and the limitation on the number of men who could fire in any formation means that the disparity on numbers should have made little difference unless the Swedes had deliberately spread themselves out over the field so that every Russian was able to get a good shot.
    Ok, Clausewitz and every other military theorist came to a different conclusion,
    but, whatever theory of yours that floats your boat
    My 6 2nd rates routed in horror from 1 brig + 1 5th rate on auto-resolve....

  3. #23

    Default Re: Prussian Platoon Fire Under Fredrick the Great

    Quote Originally Posted by poa View Post
    Ok, Clausewitz and every other military theorist came to a different conclusion,
    but, whatever theory of yours that floats your boat
    Clausewitz was talking about 19th century warfare and tactic's, hardly the same thing.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Prussian Platoon Fire Under Fredrick the Great

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    The best it appears that we can come up with is to use the inbuilt skirmisher/light infantry system. This at least allows everyone in the formation to fire as fast as they can reload. It's inaccurate even as a skirmishing system, but it's closer to reality than the built in fire by rank, or fire by platoon system provided.


    Nope! sorry it doesn't mean much to me at all. The ranges of muskets in this period and the limitation on the number of men who could fire in any formation means that the disparity of numbers should have made little difference unless the Swedes had deliberately spread themselves out over the field so that every Russian was able to get a good shot.

    In practice the musket had an effective range of about 150 paces, which was also the approximate frontage of a battalion of 600 men deployed in line. Therefore, two infantry lines posing each other in a musketry duel would bring approximately equal numbers of muskets to bear on each other. This trend would increase as the range shortened as the ability of officers to direct fire obliquely was limited both by the close order formation of their men and their visibility of events on their flanks. Most fire was actually directed straight downrange, even if no target was visible.

    If one were to take the extreme example quoted above of 2 units opposed by 5 units, both formed in line. Then:

    Assuming that the units were of a standard strength of 600 men and formed in three ranks, then the smaller force would consist of 1,200 men formed on a 400 man frontage of approximately 300 paces. The larger force would consist of 3,000 men formed in three ranks on a 1,000 man frontage of approximately 650 paces.

    If the two lines opposed each other at 100 paces (which is a conservative range for this period), and the units in the smaller force positioned themselves neatly opposite the centre of the large forces line, then range alone would limit the number of extra muskets it could bring to bear to about three units. e.g. half of the two flanking battalions would be able to angle their fire and bring shot to bear on the smaller force.

    To achieve any more advantage the flanking battalions of the larger force would need to advance left and right shoulder forward to position themselves across the flanks of the smaller line. However the extent to which this would provide a firepower advantage would only extend to the flanks of the smaller line. The longer the smaller line is the less advantage would be gained. Thus, a Swedish line of say 11,000 infantry ranged three deep, opposed by a Russian line formed of 24,000 infantry would not suffer a firepower disadvantage of 2:1, but would only suffer a disadvantage on each of its flanks of about 1,200 muskets. The vast majority of the larger force would be unable to bring their muskets to bear, and would either have to form a second line behind those engaged or form on the flanks facing open fields.

    The only thing I can think of which the Swedes could have done to make their situation worse, and allow the Russians to bring more firepower to bear, is if they followed the Go-Pa drill to the letter and tried to advance in open order. That would have effectively doubled the frontage of their units from 150 paces to 300 paces and widened their entire line so that twice as many Russian muskets could be brought to bear on them as they advanced. Though strictly speaking they should have done that in a four deep formation so even that would not have been quite so bad. It would have given then an effective frontage of 150 men per battalion deployed on a 200 man frontage.

    Actually the Battle of Fraustadt which you cite as an example of the Swedish army defeating a numerically superior force highlights the point I'm making nicely as you can see how the Russo/Saxon Army was unable to exploit it's superior numbers. In this instance their situation was made worse by the fact that they were lining a defensive position and thus even their flanking units were unable to advance to bring their fire to bear.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    It highlights the principle of local superiority,
    Frederich the great would later on utilize the oblique order almost exclusively,
    it looks like he took the battle of Fraustadt as a study case, where a smaller force through maneuvering
    can achieve parity, or even superiority

    The oblique order is a military tactic whereby an attacking army focuses its forces to attack a single enemy flank. The force commander concentrates the majority of his strength on one flank and uses the remainder to fix the enemy line. This allows a commander with weaker or equal forces to achieve a local superiority in numbers. The commander can then try to defeat the enemy in detail. It was most famously used by the armies of Frederick II of Prussia. Oblique order required disciplined troops able to execute complex maneuvers in varied circumstances.

    Not only does every military commander & theorist understand the significance of numerical superiority, but every gang member and every mammal and insect alike

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_order



    Last edited by poa; September 08, 2014 at 10:36 AM.
    My 6 2nd rates routed in horror from 1 brig + 1 5th rate on auto-resolve....

  5. #25

    Default Re: Prussian Platoon Fire Under Fredrick the Great

    Quote Originally Posted by poa View Post
    Not only does every military commander & theorist understand the significance of numerical superiority, but every gang member and every mammal and insect alike
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_order
    True, but it only works against a numerically superior enemy if it is combined with other factors that prevent the enemy responding to the attack. At Friestadt the Russo/Saxon army was hampered by its own defences whereas at Leuthen the Austrian's were prevented from reacting by their limited visibility of the Prussian movements.

    Unfortunately, in Totalwar games the AI has an all seeing eye and so these sort of tactic's don't work very well.

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