DCI: Last Alliance - Open Beta released, NEW: 10 October 2020 new patch released, contains Ents - Wolves - Spiders crashes fix! (and more)

[Dutch-Balrog]

Umbar wasn't evil back then, was it?

[Tar-Falassion]

During most of the Second Age Umbar was already the main haven for the King's Men, those Numenoreans who loathed Elves for their immortality, contested the Ban of the Valar and turned to the worship of Melkor under the influence of Sauron. Even before the Drowning of Numenor the King's Men would rather settle in Umbar, while the Faithful (the Elvenfriends of Numenor) relocated in Pelargir and Tharbad.
And after the Akallabêth the King's Men who survived the destruction of Numenor and found refuge in Umbar still bore immense hatred for the Elendili of Gondor and Arnor.

So yes, they were completely evil back then.

[Ngugi]

So, I have one question : In the mod presentation it is stated "reign as a Black Numenorean lord at the head of the grim Haradrim, in the invasion of the West".

Does this imply that a substantial part of Harad's roster will be made of Black Numenorean troops ? I mean, more than 1 or 2 AoR units in Umbar and the general's bodyguard unit ?

As it says: Haradrim with Black Numenorean lords. So, no. That's the short answer. No doubt a small ferret will be along presently to fill in some gaps.

Well, I asked about this because at the time of the Last Alliance Black Numenoreans weren't a dying race as during the War of the Ring, and they still had great numbers and power in Umbar.
But that's fine anyway, a Mordunedain elite at the head of Haradrim hordes must be quite a sight as well

Umbar wasn't evil back then, was it?

During most of the Second Age Umbar was already the main haven for the King's Men, those Numenoreans who loathed Elves for their immortality, contested the Ban of the Valar and turned to the worship of Melkor under the influence of Sauron. Even before the Drowning of Numenor the King's Men would rather settle in Umbar, while the Faithful (the Elvenfriends of Numenor) relocated in Pelargir and Tharbad.
And after the Akallabêth the King's Men who survived the destruction of Numenor and found refuge in Umbar still bore immense hatred for the Elendili of Gondor and Arnor.

So yes, they were completely evil back then.

No, there will be a limited handful of high end tier units.

While through the history of the SA the King's Men settled in what I assume is a higher number than the immigrating Elffriends, though that assumtion can not be confirmed, simply because of the long period and their higher population, the kind of settling they conducted differed. The King's Men, later Black Númenóreans, were dispersed across vast areas, while the Elffriends were concentrated in the Northwest, in proximity to the Elves.
What kind of settling Tolkien describe the KM's were conducting do also not sound, to me, like a classic colonization á la say the Northamerican, where large amounts of civilian settlers come to put up their house to live as farmers and hunters, but more like a power hungry and greedy exploit rackets, more akin to the Belgian colonization of Congo. Typical norms of such a dominion are few foreign rulers (administrative, military and household) present, but using technical superiority and political tricks to maintain power and maximize the profit.
Less so wicked they seem early, when Umbar was founded, but more so later when many if not most of 'todays' BNs ought to stem from:

Thus it came to pass in that time that the Númenóreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands; for their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth, since the West was denied. Great harbours and strong towers they made, and there many of them took up their abode; but they appeared now rather as lords and masters and gatherers of tribute than as helpers and teachers. And the great ships of the Númenóreans were borne east on the winds and returned ever laden, and the power and majesty of their kings were increased; and they drank and they feasted and they clad themselves in silver and gold.
...
Nonetheless for long it seemed to the Númenóreans that they prospered, and if they were not increased in happiness, yet they grew more strong, and their rich men ever richer. For with the aid and counsel of Sauron they multiplied then: possessions, and they devised engines, and they built ever greater ships. And they sailed now with power and armoury to Middle-earth, and they came no longer as bringers of gifts, nor even as rulers, but as fierce men of war. And they hunted the men of Middle-earth and took their goods and enslaved them, and many they slew cruelly upon their altars. For they built in their fortresses temples and great tombs in those days; and men feared them, and the memory of the kindly kings of the ancient days faded from the world and was darkened by many a tale of dread.
- Akallabeth

'The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Númenorean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King's Men, who were afterwards called the Black Númenoreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil. After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor. Umbar, therefore, was only taken at great cost.
- Appendix A, footnote #24

JRR is not keen on to give actual numbers almost never, and during the WotLA the only figure we get is "not few". Well, 'not few' compaired to what and whom?

And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Some thousand? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? For Harad Tolkien is sufficed to give us two leader names and nothing more, but they apperently command the haradrim making them mighty, no matter how many of their kin they also lead (Umbar counted into it).
From that my perception is that there are many, perhaps very many, small BN kingdoms across the south, neither in which the BN population is very great (in straight numbers, not only in percentage of population as for the Dúnedain of Arnor & Gondor when looking at their subjects), which is a reason the BNs in most places got mingled up with natives and disappeared early in the Third Age, but that in each place they govern natives who also make up the bulk of any fighting forces they may lead.


They shall be a sight at any regard, that is my devoted aim

[salzella]

Beautifully explained! So bad-ass... in a terrible, evil way obviously. I particularly like the colonial analogies.

Any chance of seeing the Black Númenorean units soon pleeeeeeease?

edit: or the hill men. or anything really, i'm not fussy

[Ngugi]

Harad I fear will be the last finished modelled roster, so that is far away, but the Hill-men is close at hand. I know we've starved you on evil previews so far

[Tar-Falassion]

Masterfully explained indeed, I salute your reasoning. I also liked a lot your vision of the colonial strategy of Numenoreans Anyway I simply cannot wait for them to be released !

The one thing I wonder though, is whether these top-tier BN units will be Umbar-AoR, or will be recruitable anywhere ?

[Ngugi]

No they will not be tied to Umbar or any certain region.
The stand point is still that the BNs are decently numerous, while not unified unless their Dark Lord command so, and gather from aross ME to serve Sauron in this war, meaning while they are not per see common (avilable first in high level recruitment buildings, and a tad less avilable than equal tier units from common Men since they are more powerful) they are still avilable as other units.

[Gratzy2]

either way the Black Numenoreans will overcome those peasants of Gondor with the will of sauron!

[Tar-Falassion]

either way the Black Numenoreans will overcome those peasants of Gondor with the will of sauron!

Couldn't've said it better, good sir ! Let the glory of the King's Men crush the childish hopes of Gondor !

[Sint]

I prefer to bring them back to glory and defeat both Sauron and Gondor

[Ngugi]

"Join the Black Númenórean side, they have cookies"

[Gratzy2]

and free bread for every soul that follows the will of sauron!

[♔atthias♔]

hello DCI team I have a question why are there 6 plalantiri I think the numeoreans had 7 palantiri
excuse me if this question is already answered
good luck whit the mod
sorry for my bad english
greetings atthias

[Withwnar]

The 7th only looks toward Valinor.

[Ngugi]

There were seven Stones indeed, but the one in the towers at Lindon was not useful for any Middle-earth buisness:

It is told in Appendix A (I, iii) toThe Lord of the Rings that the palantír of Emyn Beraid "was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the vanished West; but the bent seas below covered Númenor for ever."
- Unfinished Tales

It is said that the towers of Emyn Beraid were not built indeed by the Exiles of Númenor, but were raised by Gil-galad for Elendil, his friend; and the Seeing Stone of Emyn Beraid was set in Elostirion, the tallest of the towers. Thither Elendil would repair, and thence he would gaze out over the sundering seas, when the yearning of exile was upon him; and it is believed that thus he would at whiles see far away even the Tower of Avallónë upon Eressëa, where the Masterstone abode, and yet abides.
- Silmarillion

That Stone will be present ingame, but can not be used to survey the land, it only provide a happiness-bonus for certain factions who hold the province.

Edit: ninjad ^^

[Boogie Knight]

:o

Just came across this submod today. It looks incredible! I'd been hoping for some first/second era stuff and this is looking to be just the thing. And the Oathbreakers are not only playable, but can either break or keep their oath at the pivotal moment? Very, very excited for this. Fortunately I've got MOS 1.7 and plenty of real life stuff to keep me busy for now, but I'll be looking forward to it!

Do you know what the exact start date will be? It probably says it in the first post but I can't see it anywhere. I mainly ask because I was having a look at the map and it looks like most of Rhudaur seems to belong to a faction other than Arnor/Numenorean Kingdoms. Had it already fallen to the Witch-King's influence at that point?

Also, what culture would the Men of the Mountains be? Would they be the same as the Middlemen DAC uses, or something else? And are they the white faction north of Gondor on your map? It's only looking at that that I realise how much of what would later become Rohan they possessed. I guess I might be answering my own question there about culture, as being placed right there they're surely related to the Dunlendings to some degree, who are of course Middlemen themselves.

[Dutch-Balrog]

This submod will most likely still take like 10 months before ready for release i'd guess so it's not an issue to keep playing MOS for now.

The story of the Fall of Arnor happens in the mid-Third Age, not in the Second Age, so it's well far before that. This mod i think starts right after Gondor and Arnor were founded after the fall of Numenor.

Idk about the culture thing, Middle Men seems most likely.

[Ngugi]

Thank you, Boogie
As DB, among other things, are right about here, there's some time yet before we release, hehe

The start date is 3429 Second Age, 110 years after Númenor sank and when Sauron attacked and taken Minas ithil, initating the war; while the Witch-King came to Angmar first in the 14th century in the Third Age.
The realm in the north are the Hill-men of the North, a faction aligned to Sauron as their forefathers often were subjected to Morgoth.

Men of the Mountains start with Middlemen-culture, correct. This will change with time, so they become either Followers of Sauron (Oathbreakers) or Hosts of the West (Oathkeepers), though the player may also chose to roll on as Middlemen if desired.
Personally I would not account the Dunlendings as Middlemen, nor would the Dúnedain, but that's a matter for a lore discussion and not for here, hehe.

[Boogie Knight]

Oh, heh, don’t think I’m trying to rush you or expecting you’ll be done in a few weeks. When I said I had MOS 1.7 and real life to keep me busy, I meant it; I don’t get much time for gaming these days since becoming a father so MOS will take me a veeery long time to get anywhere with. If Dutch Balrog’s estimate of ten months is accurate, I’ll probably still be too busy then to really get to grips with this. I was expecting years rather than months. I’m in no hurry, trust me. XD

So if the Witch-King doesn’t show up for another however-many-thousand years, wouldn’t Rhudaur’s formation be a long way off? I didn’t think Angmar was around in the Second Age, but what made me ask about this was seeing the three regions with “Rhudaur” in their name, and I think I remember seeing a Cardolan one as well. Did these regions already have these names when part of Arnor, or did you pick them so players would feel some familiarity?

Also, if that area on your map is the territory of the Hill-Men, what is the starting position/colour of the Men of the Mountain on your map?

I’d love to know more about the Dunlendings not being considered Middlemen; I’ll ask about it in more detail on the lore thread whenI can get a moment to myself.

Either way, best of luck with the submod. Long way off though it may be, I look forward to it!

[Withwnar]

The Hill-men and Rhudaur were there before Angmar.

The Men of the Mountains are the white faction where Rohan would be in TATW.