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Thread: DCI: Last Alliance - 13th Jan: Settlement preview part 4 out (page 102)

  1. #1881
    Ngugi's Avatar Tôl Acharn
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    That's the fun kind hehe; thanks lads
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  2. #1882

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Professional work on Harad, great work team and keep it up in like style! Far Haradrim looks particularly good, though some Half-Trolls wouldn't be out of place (yes, I think GW's version is the best around and the obvious starting point for any modding work).

    I very much like how you stress the Black Númenoreans as lordly and cruel inheritors of a colonial empire, and worshippers of Dark Lord(s) at that. The bastard cavalry is a great little detail underlining the lack of westerly pretensions at misty noble purity and goodness mirroring the Elves, having replaced that with a more red-blooded appeal to primal human nature, where raw might; ambitious drive to expand, dominate and conquer; ego and a hunger for the riches and pleasures of this world is given free reign, and given elevated expression in the bloodthirsty cult of Sauron and Melkor. This is how you do Harad.

    And obviously the downfall of Númenor is too fresh for armour styles to have diverged too greatly between Elendil's Elf-hugging ilk and the Black Númenoreans.

    As for Zigûrun, the name is familiar in Tolkien's work, though I can't place where I've read it before even if I had a deja vú connection of Sauron-Ziggurat. Where does it show up, pray tell?

    Also, one can easily picture a member of the Zigûrun order chastising some young Black Númenorean or upper class Haradrim for their faults and lacking grasp of the fiery faith: "You think you live a hardy life in a scorched and desiccated land, yet our Lord dwells amid raging flames which has burnt his realm to ashes, for so greatly does his divine purity burn amid the darkness. Your heat is nought, your deserts cold and fruitful compared to His Divine Majesty's seat of power upon earth. For I have witnessed it with my own eyes, and returned to tell the tale. So harken to my words, brethren, and load another sacrifice unto the pyre! Zigûrun demands his due."
    Last edited by Karak Norn Clansman; June 09, 2016 at 03:40 PM.

  3. #1883
    Dutch-Balrog's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Is there any actual evidence that half trolls even excist? Because i really think that they're odd af.

  4. #1884

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    A passing mention in RotK at Pelennor Fields IIRC. As for oddball stuff, I've got a hunch we'd have seen some very exotic and strange things down south had JRR Tolkien got around to the large task of fleshing out Eärendil's travels fully, and pygmys would only have been the start of it.

    And in a Middle Earth of Men-Elf couplings, and even Orc-Men interbreeding to produce Uruk-hai, Half-Trolls aren't that far out. One advantage with having them, is to underline that Lotr truly is a fantasy world. Though Tolkien's focus was at the northwestern portion of Middle Earth with its Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits and Ents and Trolls and Orcs detailed in tales, one should not dismiss one of the few bits we've got going for non-Human humanoids elsewhere in Middle-Earth aside from the Orocarni Dwarves and Nandor Elves, both of which are associated with the east rather than the south. As far as I know, Half-Trolls are all we've got for sure on non-Humans down south.
    Last edited by Karak Norn Clansman; June 09, 2016 at 05:16 PM.

  5. #1885
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Thanks KNC
    No, there will be no such unit implemented in DCI; I am of the opinion there exist no 'half-trolls', but that its a misreading of RotK. JRR define, in my opinion, they are just men, "and out of Far Harad black men". This black hue is howevera feature that is news to the Gondorian and the Hobbits of the North who "written" the book, and who make a quick reference and connection to something they do know with such feature - trolls, because trolls are known to have dark skin and black blood.

    Aye, the King's Men are the worst of humanity, all the more sinister and evil as they were bestowed the knowledge and aptitude to be good and benevolent, but used the power to opress and terrorize, pleasing greed and power hunger to cover their own fear, in the guise of something magnificent. But, on the same grounds, I have no doubt they have splendid class, haha.


    Zigurun is a name used in HoME 9, when Tolkien writes about the fall of Númenor. The prime name Zigur means 'Wizard', whilst Zigurun is 'the Wizard', which is used in an Aduanic poem, and defined in a grammatic section.
    Examples:
    "Sauron. Zigurun, Zigur."
    (...)
    Zigur: the Adunaic name of Sauron...
    (...)
    And this evil thing was called by many names, but the Eruhil named him Sauron, and men of Middle-earth (when they dared to speak his name at all) named him mostly Zigur the Great.
    (...)
    And this evil thing was called by many names; but its own name that it took in the arising of its power was Zigur, Zigur the Great. And Zigur made himself a mighty king in the midst of the Earth; and well-seeming he was at first, and just, and his rule was of benefit to all men in the needs of the body. For he made them rich, whoso would serve him; but those who would not he drove out into the waste places. Yet it was the purpose of Zigur, as of Mulkher before him, to make himself a king over all kings, and to be the god of Men.
    - HoME 9
    Arguably we could used only Zigur in our texts, but there's a natural tie between Sauron - Zigurun; and for the unit it seem closer to the intention with "the Wizard(s) Order" than "(the) Wizard(s) Order" hehe.


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  6. #1886

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    No, there will be no such unit implemented in DCI; I am of the opinion there exist no 'half-trolls', but that its a misreading of RotK. JRR define, in my opinion, they are just men, "and out of Far Harad black men". This black hue is howevera feature that is news to the Gondorian and the Hobbits of the North who "written" the book, and who make a quick reference and connection to something they do know with such feature - trolls, because trolls are known to have dark skin and black blood.
    Exactly.

    The relevant quote is: «There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.» The keyword here being "like".

    So, these individuals were not really half-trolls, but rather men that, due to their stature and skin colour, were compared to half-trolls by the Westerners.

  7. #1887
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    That could be read two ways: "men, like half-trolls" or "men-like half-trolls", the latter being half-trolls who look like men. Just sayin'. Open to interpretation.

  8. #1888
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    What is this southern thing in the future? A campaign with new lands? Hmmmmm? Sounds great!

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  9. #1889
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Damn it, it was meant to be a secret: a Fourth Age custom camapign where the Mûmakil exploit the political chaos after Sauron's fall, rise up and grabs the power.

    Hannibal may walked across the Alps, but he got nothing on Ollie the Oliphant crossing the Misty Mountains!
    Show the Elves who have the fancier ears, trample ALL the Rohirrim this time around, give BNs the trunk, avoid the enemy's flaming mice, and hoard your loot like a dragon, this army works for peanuts. Tremble Middle-earth: an Oliphant never forgets, and there're scores to settle....!


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  10. #1890

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor View Post
    Exactly.

    The relevant quote is: «There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.» The keyword here being "like".

    So, these individuals were not really half-trolls, but rather men that, due to their stature and skin colour, were compared to half-trolls by the Westerners.
    Bah, it didn't quite read like that in the Swedish translation. The misreading was much better. I want my money back!

    On the other hand, that could be read as positive proof that there exists Half-Trolls somewhere in Middle-Earth. Could be Angmar, Eriador, Enedwaith or the hinterlands of Mordor, somewhere at some places there are Half-Trolls. And given how Dwarves, Orcs and Elves seem quite reserved for the northerly Western-Eastern stretches of Middle-Earth, that leaves the vast south quite bereft of known fantasy creatures since Tolkien didn't explore it closely (though might have, in Eärendil's travels). We have a seeming fantasy vaccuum with nothing mentioned but Men down south. So some brave skilled modder would be more than welcome to take the very small leap of artistic liberty, break from lore adherency for a while and put in some actual Half-Trolls for Far Harad in an add-on submod to this one, should he fancy a challenge. After all, why settle for a poorer setting when you can have a richer world that way?
    Last edited by Karak Norn Clansman; June 10, 2016 at 07:29 AM.

  11. #1891

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    In an earlier iteration of the Appendix on Languages, Tolkien wrote:
    "Trolls, in their beginning creatures of lumpish and brutal nature, had nothing that could be called true language of their own; but the evil Power had at various times made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn, and even crossing their breed with that of the larger Orcs."
    PoME, Appendix on Languages

    But in a revision (re: Olog-hai):
    "That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were a cross-breed between trolls and the larger Orcs; others that they were indeed not trolls at all but giant Orcs. Yet there was no kin-ship from the beginning between the stone-trolls and the Orcs that they might breed together; while the Olg-hai were in fashion of mind and body quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind ..."
    op.ct.
    As trolls had no kin-ship with Orcs, and thus could not interbreed, while Orcs and Men did have a kin-ship and could interbreed, then Trolls could not interbreed with Men. Thus no half-Trolls.

  12. #1892

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Thanks, that is indeed correct, though "half" could also simply mean a small Troll, akin to "halfling" for Hobbits. So it is not out of the question.

  13. #1893

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Quote Originally Posted by Karak Norn Clansman View Post
    Thanks, that is indeed correct, though "half" could also simply mean a small Troll, akin to "halfling" for Hobbits. So it is not out of the question.
    Yeah, but, if they existed, Mordor, and not Harad or Far-Harad, would probably be the place you could find them, seeing as Sauron was the only one who could kinda establish a Trolling breeding program.

    But then a question arises: why should you bother to breed small "half-trolls" when you can have the big and strong Olog-hai?

  14. #1894

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    A natural offshot variant down south, a population isolate far from the breeding control of the Dark Lords? Possibly descending from some migrant proto-Trolls during the dark days of Middle-Earth, as the Trolls were being developed by Melkor and the lands were filled by monsters. Possibly a roll-back, a retardation or reversal of the beefed-up properties bred for by Morgoth and Sauron, who geared them for physical strength and size. If (selective) Troll breeding is difficult or at least demanding, as is the impression given in Tolkien's work with the Olog-hai, one would expect some wild Troll populations to go a bit small where no mastermind any longer is directing their breeding for war, particularly in resource-scarce environs such as islands. Possibly in arid wastelands as well. It's just a matter of imagination kept within reasonable bounds. There could well be Half-Trolls somewhere in Middle-Earth, though for a lore-adherent mod I understand why you wouldn't venture into such an area of artistic liberties, even if they'd be very small liberties indeed. But maybe for a sub-submod if any modder would be interested...

    Sorry for derailing with Half-Trolls, but if you've said A you've got to say B. In any case, Harad looks ace as is, and I really look forward to the next faction preview. Or better up, the release!
    Last edited by Karak Norn Clansman; June 12, 2016 at 03:11 PM.

  15. #1895
    webba84's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Seriously impressive stuff, I had no idea ME2 unit models could look this good!
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  16. #1896
    El Monstero29's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Damn it, it was meant to be a secret: a Fourth Age custom camapign where the Mûmakil exploit the political chaos after Sauron's fall, rise up and grabs the power.

    Hannibal may walked across the Alps, but he got nothing on Ollie the Oliphant crossing the Misty Mountains!
    Show the Elves who have the fancier ears, trample ALL the Rohirrim this time around, give BNs the trunk, avoid the enemy's flaming mice, and hoard your loot like a dragon, this army works for peanuts. Tremble Middle-earth: an Oliphant never forgets, and there're scores to settle....!




    You're just missing "Coming this Fall, to a theater near you..."

    I'd see that movie!

  17. #1897
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    I smell franshise...! The Herd of the Ring, The Two Tusks and ending with The Return of the Bull
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  18. #1898

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Will Mordor roster have some black numenorians units?

  19. #1899
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    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Yes, Mordor have access to Zigurun Order, if also not as frequently as Harad itself.
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  20. #1900

    Default Re: DCI: Last Alliance Total War - 6th June: Harad & Black Númenórean preview out

    Will Mordor roster have more differences with TATW Mordor roster?

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