[Heiğinn Veğr] Introduction & FAQ

[Landil]

Hey there, have a cookie for this cool concept

There is a flaw in your faction list however, namely that 'Graafschap Hollant und Fryslan' is incorrect in several ways. Let me explain in detail:

1. Linguistically, Graafschap is Modern Dutch, Hollant is Middle Dutch, und is Modern German and Fryslan is Modern Frisian, so it is really just a completely nonsensical composition. The most sensible Middle Dutch translation of this would be Gravescap Hollant ende Vrieselant, but this is still not adequate, as this translation would much better fit the 12-13th century than the 10-11th century.

2. You apparently assume that Holland as a political identity already existed during the 10-11th century. This is incorrect. Holland was during this period part of the larger Frisian cultural region, and only became its own county during the late 11th century, the term Hollant being first attested in the context of a region separate from the Frisian region in 1101 AD. Indeed, Holland was during this period of time still very much Frisian in culture, Dutch (a Frankish related language) becoming more and more dominant from the 11th century onward, until it had completely replaced Frisian (a Saxon related language) in this part of the Low Countries by the 13th century.

3. You also seem to assume that Holland and Fryslan (or Friesland in Dutch) together formed a single county. As I have said above, Holland only became an independent county during the late 11th century, while at the same time, Fryslan was still divided into several independent counties. Indeed, in the 10th century, the whole of Frisia (to use the Latin name) was split into dozens of Gouwen (Gouw is synonymous to the English Shire). Each of these regions was ruled by a lord, called a Gouwgraaf (best compared to the English Shire Reeve, or Sheriff as it is now known), who usually wasn't very powerful on his own. However, the Frisian counts (and I'm including here the counts of the various shires that the later counties of Holland and Zeeland were divided into) did have strong ties of kinship, and there was a certain sense of common Frisian identity among them, so you could say there existed a kind of 'Frisian confederation' that spanned from Nordfriesland in the north-east, along the coast, to Zeeland in the south-west.

So what then, would constitute a correct name for the faction? I have already stated, that Holland did not exist as a consistent geographical or political entity, that the whole cannot be called a county, and that the dominant language throughout the region was Frisian during the 10-11th century. So I would suggest the Old Frisian term Frēslond Rīke. Looks familiar? It should, because it's just like your names for England and the Scandinavian factions. The Frisian language was and still is the closest relative of English, with their other close relatives being the Scandinavian languages and Low German (the latter being the direct child of Old Saxon).

There's a lot more stuff I could tell you about this and many other subjects, but I'll leave it to this for now, for the sake of your sanity. If you need any help regarding research (especially map research, see my DotS previews to understand why ), send me a PM and I'll see what I can do.

[Heathen Storm]

Hey there, have a cookie for this cool concept

There is a flaw in your faction list however, namely that 'Graafschap Hollant und Fryslan' is incorrect in several ways. Let me explain in detail:

1. Linguistically, Graafschap is Modern Dutch, Hollant is Middle Dutch, und is Modern German and Fryslan is Modern Frisian, so it is really just a completely nonsensical composition. The most sensible Middle Dutch translation of this would be Gravescap Hollant ende Vrieselant, but this is still not adequate, as this translation would much better fit the 12-13th century than the 10-11th century.

2. You apparently assume that Holland as a political identity already existed during the 10-11th century. This is incorrect. Holland was during this period part of the larger Frisian cultural region, and only became its own county during the late 11th century, the term Hollant being first attested in the context of a region separate from the Frisian region in 1101 AD. Indeed, Holland was during this period of time still very much Frisian in culture, Dutch (a Frankish related language) becoming more and more dominant from the 11th century onward, until it had completely replaced Frisian (a Saxon related language) in this part of the Low Countries by the 13th century.

3. You also seem to assume that Holland and Fryslan (or Friesland in Dutch) together formed a single county. As I have said above, Holland only became an independent county during the late 11th century, while at the same time, Fryslan was still divided into several independent counties. Indeed, in the 10th century, the whole of Frisia (to use the Latin name) was split into dozens of Gouwen (Gouw is synonymous to the English Shire). Each of these regions was ruled by a lord, called a Gouwgraaf (best compared to the English Shire Reeve, or Sheriff as it is now known), who usually wasn't very powerful on his own. However, the Frisian counts (and I'm including here the counts of the various shires that the later counties of Holland and Zeeland were divided into) did have strong ties of kinship, and there was a certain sense of common Frisian identity among them, so you could say there existed a kind of 'Frisian confederation' that spanned from Nordfriesland in the north-east, along the coast, to Zeeland in the south-west.

So what then, would constitute a correct name for the faction? I have already stated, that Holland did not exist as a consistent geographical or political entity, that the whole cannot be called a county, and that the dominant language throughout the region was Frisian during the 10-11th century. So I would suggest the Old Frisian term Frēslond Rīke. Looks familiar? It should, because it's just like your names for England and the Scandinavian factions. The Frisian language was and still is the closest relative of English, with their other close relatives being the Scandinavian languages and Low German (the latter being the direct child of Old Saxon).

There's a lot more stuff I could tell you about this and many other subjects, but I'll leave it to this for now, for the sake of your sanity. If you need any help regarding research (especially map research, see my DotS previews to understand why ), send me a PM and I'll see what I can do.

Thank you for your corrections & suggestions mate. This is what I love best about the TWC community, they are helpful, constructive critics and can still have a sense of humor at the same time! I really appreciate mate, have some rep!

Well, lets get down to business.

First point; thank you very much for the name correction. Strange, though, because everything I've ever seen of Frisia said that the Count was mainly referred to as the Count of Holland and Frisia. Is this a later invention?

Frēslond Rīke is great, as it can fit much better with the concept of the faction.

About the map; once I get the regions finalized I will message you with my ideas for the area and see if everything is looking correct and historical.

[Landil]

Happy to be of help mate

You are correct in believing that the title of Count of Holland and Friesland existed, but not in the context you'd expect. In 1077 Dirk V, Count of what would later become known as Holland (he was then just a Frisian count ruling over several Gouwen), won back the rights to the Gouw of Westflinge after a bloody war with the Prince-Bishop of Utrecht, whom had usurped the title from Dirk's deceased uncle Dirk IV. When Holland later became its own separate county, this region of Westflinge remained a de jure part of Friesland, even though it was administered by the Count of Holland. This led to the count also becoming known as Count of Holland and Friesland (the usage was uncommon however, the simple Grave van Hollant was more often used), even though most of the region of Friesland remained independent from the Count of Holland. Indeed, in 1291, Count Floris V started calling himself Count of Holland and Zeeland and Lord of Friesland. For the rest of history, this part of Friesland belonged to the jurisdiction of Holland, and is today known as West-Friesland.

As I pointed out though, most of Friesland remained independent, and indeed never managed to form itself into a single county (see: Frisian freedom). By 1300, Friesland was still mostly divided into Gouwen and Landen (the latter being practically synonymous to the former), as the -go and -land suffixes on the following map illustrate:

Spoiler for map: 

However, it must be mentioned again that there was a strong sense of pan-Frisian identity. The Frisians had a system of legislation very similar to that of the Scandinavians, they too held the thing (most importantly, the Opstalboom was a thingstead near Aurich where delegations from all Frisian regions would come together annually) and composed law codes that all Frisians had to abide to, such as the early Lex Frisionum.

In any case, I'll gladly review the whole of your map if you want. Don't let the above deceive you into thinking that my knowledge is restricted to this particular slice of the cheesecake of history, in fact, some people might think by now that I'm secretly an Arab because of all my knowledge on the Middle East.

[Heathen Storm]

Happy to be of help mate

You are correct in believing that the title of Count of Holland and Friesland existed, but not in the context you'd expect. In 1077 Dirk V, Count of what would later become known as Holland (he was then just a Frisian count ruling over several Gouwen), won back the rights to the Gouw of Westflinge after a bloody war with the Prince-Bishop of Utrecht, whom had usurped the title from Dirk's deceased uncle Dirk IV. When Holland later became its own separate county, this region of Westflinge remained a de jure part of Friesland, even though it was administered by the Count of Holland. This led to the count also becoming known as Count of Holland and Friesland (the usage was uncommon however, the simple Grave van Hollant was more often used), even though most of the region of Friesland remained independent from the Count of Holland. Indeed, in 1291, Count Floris V started calling himself Count of Holland and Zeeland and Lord of Friesland. For the rest of history, this part of Friesland belonged to the jurisdiction of Holland, and is today known as West-Friesland.

As I pointed out though, most of Friesland remained independent, and indeed never managed to form itself into a single county (see: Frisian freedom). By 1300, Friesland was still mostly divided into Gouwen and Landen (the latter being practically synonymous to the former), as the -go and -land suffixes on the following map illustrate:

Spoiler for map: 

However, it must be mentioned again that there was a strong sense of pan-Frisian identity. The Frisians had a system of legislation very similar to that of the Scandinavians, they too held the thing (most importantly, the Opstalboom was a thingstead near Aurich where delegations from all Frisian regions would come together annually) and composed law codes that all Frisians had to abide to, such as the early Lex Frisionum.

In any case, I'll gladly review the whole of your map if you want. Don't let the above deceive you into thinking that my knowledge is restricted to this particular slice of the cheesecake of history, in fact, some people might think by now that I'm secretly an Arab because of all my knowledge on the Middle East.

Perfect, that would be excellent. I'm very near to finished with the region list so I'll send you it once I am done.

[lolIsuck]

If I understand it well, culture will be used both as religion and culture? Or will we still have religions? I would think the second thing is more logical as Europe wasn't exactly uniform on religion and there's quite some pagan factions left.

[BLIP99]

We have religions as well, though i think Heathen is doing something tricky which i can't fully comprehend

[Heathen Storm]

If I understand it well, culture will be used both as religion and culture? Or will we still have religions? I would think the second thing is more logical as Europe wasn't exactly uniform on religion and there's quite some pagan factions left.

There will be use of both culture and religion. What you will be mainly converting is culture, like the Britannia campaign. However, each character will have a religious trait that affects the settlement, and will affect relations between factions. Each character will have the ability to convert (somewhat small chance) if they build the opposite religious building in their settlement, while destroying the faction based one. Also, if your faction leader becomes a different religion than your faction, he will be able to convert the entire faction if he pleases (through a yes/no event).

[Kaiser Leonidas]

Just thought I'd say that this mod looks great so far. I like the time period that you've chosen for this so good luck with the development .

[Heathen Storm]

Just thought I'd say that this mod looks great so far. I like the time period that you've chosen for this so good luck with the development .

Thank you sir!, Eventually when we need testers I'll contact you and see if you'd test for us, since I know you have done great testing before.

[Gravedigger 1970]

In first post i think that it should be "Hrvatsko Kraljevstvo" instead "Harvatsko Kraljevstvo", correct me if i am wrong.
The mod look promising and i personaly look forward to it, keep up good work
And also one question would you included some Serbian faction ?

[Heathen Storm]

In first post i think that it should be "Hrvatsko Kraljevstvo" instead "Harvatsko Kraljevstvo", correct me if i am wrong.
The mod look promising and i personaly look forward to it, keep up good work
And also one question would you included some Serbian faction ?

Huh, must have made a typo somewhere. Will fix that.

Thank you for your interest mate! I greatly appreciate it. We will not be having a Serbian faction. I initially had.one but found out that the kingdom had been ended a few years before the start of the mod. IIRC they came back to power around the early to mid 1000's.

[Gravedigger 1970]

Yes Serbian state ended in 960. after prince Caslav death in fight against Hungarians, and yes like you say they came back to power in 1038. after second rebellion by Stefan Vojislav.
Well you can change start year of the mod for just 10 years Just saying.
Never mind, like i already say keep up good work, and i will play this mod even if there is no Serbia.

Now i can't kill some Vikings with Serbians

[Heathen Storm]

Yes Serbian state ended in 960. after prince Caslav death in fight against Hungarians, and yes like you say they came back to power in 1038. after second rebellion by Stefan Vojislav.
Well you can change start year of the mod for just 10 years Just saying.
Never mind, like i already say keep up good work, and i will play this mod even if there is no Serbia.

Now i can't kill some Vikings with Serbians

You can, however, recruit some units from Duklja - there will be some AOR leftovers from the Serbian state.

[Zyzyfer]

Nice to see a more Europe focused mod.

Albeit I'd really love to see the 'Principality of Nitra' included as it's own independent fiefdom. The Principality had its own dynastic rulers and only lost its independence at beginning of 11AD when it was integrated into the Kingdom of Hungary.

[Heathen Storm]

Nice to see a more Europe focused mod.

Albeit I'd really love to see the 'Principality of Nitra' included as it's own independent fiefdom. The Principality had its own dynastic rulers and only lost its independence at beginning of 11AD when it was integrated into the Kingdom of Hungary.

Hmm, all of my sources say that it was (at least nominally) under Magyar rule. Do you have any sources about it?

[demagogos nicator]

They were nominly part of the Kingdom of Hungaria and the title Prince of Nitra/Nyitra was held by the members of Magyar/Hungarian ruling family (the house of Arpad), often the hiers of the Hungarian throne. On the other hand, many princes led independant foreign policy different form the policy of the Hungarian kings/Magyar princes and some even minted their own coinage. The principality was temporarily occupied by the Polish forces of the King Boleslaw I. for about a decade at the beginning of the XI. century.

[BLIP99]

To be honest though the only way it can be an "independent fiefdom" as you put it is if we make it a unique rebel settlement, unless you can convince us why the Principality of Nitra was more important than any other faction that's already in the mod though of course haha

Cheers

[demagogos nicator]

I think the most acurate way how to represent the Principality of Nitra is just to add the title Prince of Nitra (anciliary) for Hungarian family members residing here which will gave them beside some bonuses also huge decrease on loyalty which will make them tends to rebel in the case that Hungarian faction leader do not have enought authority.

Do not forget that at the start date of the mod Magyars (and Slavs) were not united yet and Principality of Nitra was one of the several Magyar principalities in the Karpathian basin. However, it alredy belonged to the power base of the princes of the house of Arpad from which the future Hungarian grand principality and finaly kingdom was born.