End of Antiquity Campaign: The First Crusade (612 - 710)

[Silesian_Noble]

A note to the last two pictures from the post 516 - I believe they are Yenisei Kyrgyzes, not Gokturks. Kyrgyzes amoury was distinct one, you should not mix those things.

[karaislam]

A note to the last two pictures from the post 516 - I believe they are Yenisei Kyrgyzes, not Gokturks. Kyrgyzes amoury was distinct one, you should not mix those things.

kırgız were vassal of göktürks.

[Rampante-Cid]

A note to the last two pictures from the post 516 - I believe they are Yenisei Kyrgyzes, not Gokturks. Kyrgyzes amoury was distinct one, you should not mix those things.

About the first picture here his original description in russian:

Начало битвы тюрок и китайцев
На реконструкции изображено начало сражения тяжеловооруженной тюркской конницы с копьеносной китайской пехотой (VII век)

Translate:
The beginning of the Battle of the Turks and the Chinese
At the beginning of the battle of reconstruction shows a heavily Turkish cavalry with infantry kopenosnoy Chinese (VII century)

And the second picture yeah I think that is of Khirgyg cavalry, altough they weren´t very influenciate by the Gokturk? So their armors could not be very similar?

[karaislam]

kırgız were vassal to göktürks in 6.century.after chinese hegemony over göktürks they were independent.

i plan to make kırgız warriors inside göktürk army.

[Silesian_Noble]

kırgız were vassal to göktürks in 6.century.after chinese hegemony over göktürks they were independent.

i plan to make kırgız warriors inside göktürk army.

1. Even if they were vassals I don't believe they were fighting within Gokturk army. They could pay some tribute in nature goods or crafts. Also I don't know how that vassalage could look like but I know how the vassalage of the Kyrgyzes looked when Uighurs were their overlord - Kyrgyzes fought them all the time till they finally crushed Uighur Kaghanate in 840y

2. Look at your map and now look where Yeniesei Kyrgyzes lived... This is so frickin far from your map range... So even if Kyrgyzes were forced to fight in Gokturk army they would rather assist them in local conflicts - it is very unlikely that Gokturks would take them to the far west edge of their empire.

Of course you will do what you like but my opinion is that in your case Kyrgyzes within Gokturk army is unbelievable thing.

And the second picture yeah I think that is of Khirgyg cavalry, altough they weren´t very influenciate by the Gokturk? So their armors could not be very similar?

Kyrgyzes were great armourers itself and they had own style. There certainly had to be some similarities but I don't expect Gokturks influensed Kyrgyzes (though I may be wrong here). I mean Kyrgyzes were masters itselfs so they didn't need to copy other patterns.

[karaislam]

not onyl turkish but kırgız sources also accept this

http://www.kirgizistan.somee.com/kokturkdonemi.asp

about kırgız recruitment in göktürk army i am not sure yet.i did not read anywhere.but in those times göktürks had collected nearly all the turkish kavims into 1.in the wars i suppose they were wanting them send some soldiers.it looks logical to me.later empire always did that way.but i ll investigate more.

[Caudillo87]

Yes very nice, if you guys have any more info on avars, khazars and steppe peoples in general that fit our timeframe please do share as well.

[Jupiter93]

http://geacron.com/home-en/?&sid=GeaCron60191

In this website you can see every geopolitical changes in the whole world each year from 3000 BC till today.
I've chosen the year 600 for you in this link, so it shows a map of how the world was in year 600. This should help you with startpos at least.

[Tureuki]

Even if Krygyz fought for Gokturks, they would do that for Eastern Gokturks, not the Westerners which is our case.

There will be already enough tribes to make if we consider that Khazaria and Old Bulgaria were bound to Western Khaganate as well.

[Silesian_Noble]

Even if Krygyz fought for Gokturks, they would do that for Eastern Gokturks, not the Westerners which is our case.

Great point mate.

There will be already enough tribes to make if we consider that Khazaria and Old Bulgaria were bound to Western Khaganate as well.

Exactly. I will give you a hint borrowed from wiki: the Uch-Karluks remained in the Western Turkic Kaganate under a non-autonomous home rule, as the members of the five Tele (see: Tiele) tribes that did not receive autonomy: the Karluk, Yagma, Kipchak, Basmyl and Chuban. Those tribes were located not that far from your north-east map corner.

[Tureuki]

Ok so thats what we will use for east of Caspian, but did Khagans had their own tribe ?(normally they should) what was the name ? what about the Hephtalites ? I guess they survived in the timeframe as vassals ?

[karaislam]

Göktürk zili and Göktürk madalyonu.

[karaislam]

historical turkish movies about tarkan.u can watch.

altarın oğlu tarkanım notice it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOyMJd6yhgs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPRrr-jD_x4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-tWCy4dSZY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dvmZjSu1qs

[karaislam]

Even if Krygyz fought for Gokturks, they would do that for Eastern Gokturks, not the Westerners which is our case.

There will be already enough tribes to make if we consider that Khazaria and Old Bulgaria were bound to Western Khaganate as well.

another opposite logic can come

turks were seperating the country into 2 pieces.west and east.

power center would be the east.kagan would lead the east.the reason is china is neighbour.they are crowd and strong.

in the west would be kagans brother or trusted relative.

it does not mean that they are too much seperated eachother.if west göktürks goes to war east would send help ofcourse.

[Vladyvid]

it does not mean that they are too much seperated eachother.if west göktürks goes to war east would send help ofcourse.

Right then, some important points to consider for you:

1. Your map doesnt cover much of göktürk empire, only but a fraction of it, making their presence only partial.
2. If you insist that west göktürks would receive help from the east ones, then you should also take into account the reverse situation that east should get help from west. Since you dont have a map streaching that far east, and you cant implement a feature that would require west göktürks to aid the east ones, then only logical and fair would be to deprive the west göktürks of east help.

Also the question of being separated or not is irrelevant because in reality they were separated by distance of lands and each had to guard their own borders separately, regardless if they were siblings, father and son etc. Just like the Roman Empire was one empire but had their legions scattered across huge areas and not acting as one army sitting in one place always ready to defeat any enemy.

Giving them extra military support doesnt seem to be a reasonable solution because you are only looking at the benefits and large empire was not only benefits but also threats and danger from every side, including internal affairs. If its a problem to accept that west göktürks get no help from the east - it can be simply explained that the east göktürks are busy fighting someone else, like China, and so they cant send help. You wont help them fight China, so you should not expect to get help from them aswell.

[karaislam]

our mapper archagates ll try to move the map to east around 500-1000km.

[Silesian_Noble]

another opposite logic can come

turks were seperating the country into 2 pieces.west and east.

power center would be the east.kagan would lead the east.the reason is china is neighbour.they are crowd and strong.

in the west would be kagans brother or trusted relative.

it does not mean that they are too much seperated eachother.if west göktürks goes to war east would send help ofcourse.

They did not separate without a reason and the reason was never friendly relationship but competition for power, selfish ambitions, etc. Do you know examples when eastern Kaghanate help the Western one?

[Rampante-Cid]

There some pictures of the Gokturk Standart:

[karaislam]

yes in school we ve learned so i suppose.

about kırgız u were right.they are with eastern khaganete.

with western kgahanete these tribes are available.karluk,kimak,basmil,türgeş,tolash,çiğil,kangar,macars,hazars

with eastern kgahanete these tribes are available.kırgız,tardush,telanguts,bayırku,tatars,oğuzlar,uygurs.

so kırgız wont be in my roster.

i need to model now.

[Rampante-Cid]

Could be possible that some of the high level units and nobles of the Gokturks used close helmets or bayda (egg helm) like their sassanid opponets? Maybe the western gokturk could achieved these helmets like war tropheums or with comerce with sassanids.

Bayda helmets: