Skyrim LoTR Mod (MERP) shut down by WB - does this have implications for TATW?

[Gallus]

Listen up. No one here wanted the mod to be shut down. I've been following the mod for four years now myself. Back then they were still developing for Oblivion and had an alpha out that included a fully developed height map and some developed settlements--they even had a 100% modeled Minas Tirith. Was it amazing? Yes. Was it legal? No.

This is a problem the mod team has faced ever since they decided, in their mission statement, to model all of their work off the New Line Cinema movies. The battlement walls of Minas Tirith are actually black, made of the same stonework as Orthanc, but one of the famous Tolkien illustrators (don't know which--probably both) decided to draw the entire city as white stonework. This was then translated in the movies. And it was then fully realized in this mod. Cripes, they even added catapults on the towers, even though there is never mention of Gondor having catapults on the towers in the books.

Simply put--it was a movie mod, not a lore mod. What more proof did you need when they changed the aspect of creating Middle-earth to "you will play as the Ring-bearer"? On top of all of that they then decided to port the mod over to the currently super-popular Skyrim. TATW skates on thin ice but at least they're not waving their hands like a bunch of idiots and blowing raspberries to WB saying, "Neener neener neener, look at what we're getting away with!".

I signed the petition because I like the work and hope that it continues, but let's get real here. The only way it will continue is if that team decided to wholly compromise their "we are creating movie games" angle. They would certainly have far more respect and supporters if the mod drew its inspiration directly from the books and wasn't trying to recreate the storyline of the book by making you play as one of the main characters.

Well in this case no mod based on a book or movie is legal. There is absolutely no difference between MERP and TATW. It's funny because a few months ago all mods which did not use copyrighted material (such as models and music from other games) were considered legal but now every smartass with five minutes of time apparently thinks that the MERP team is breaking the law. Spread the word people, TWC is full evil law breaking mod teams that need to be shut down NOW!

[Kahvipannu]

Well, the law is law. But that raises the question should the laws be changed? When these were putted in to use, no such things existed like f.ex. mods, they aren't up to date. It's ridiculous that WB owns all rights to a brand which creator have passed away long time ago, just becouse they have the money. By this time, LOTR should be "for all" already, not the property of the company who has money to own it.

In the interview Merp-team stated lotr will go "public domain" for them after the current setting, which is 70 years after the death of the original creator, which is what? 30 years? Not sure what country/law they referred that, but that is ridiculous.

[ztree]

Hey guys,
I'm from the Merp team (3d modeller) and I can tell you:
If all that WB is asking from us would be to change the 3d models from movie to book (to change it to anything, basically) we would be so happy to abide by this. I made the Hornburg model, for example. But I would be the happiest modder on earth if they allowed us to continue, if we just have to change the models that resemble WETA designs (new Hornburg model).

But the ugly truth is, that they don't even allow us to stay a 100% private project (only sharing between the devs). So we have a lawyer at the moment who wants to help us with communicating with WB (from O.T.W., organization for transformative works) and figuring out what the hell we are allowed to do in the first place and what rights we have.

Also that is the reason for the petition. To gain some kind of weight during any negotiations and/or talks. ca. 14,000 atm. Thanks so much to anyone who supported us so far! I am so damn proud of the whole LOTR and modding community. I am honored to be a part of this.

[StealthFox]

They have zero authority over what you do privately. I don't see how they can stop you from doing it privately just for the devs to play. I hope you have a good lawyer and can get some communication with WB on the matter. Best of luck to all of you!

[Gallus]

SF is right, you can do anything you want if you do not release the mod. I think you'd actually win if you go to court (if the judge is not bought that is) but I know that you do not want to go that far and I completely understand it. What happens to MERP is actually very important for modding in general. As I said earlier, if MERP is "illegal" then there are dozens of "illegal" mods on TWC alone.

[Josh Knight]

You blame the dev team? Are you high?! If TATW gets cease and desist letter tomorrow the TATW team will be responsible? Is that what you're saying? WB is trying to make modding illegal, that's what's happening. But sure, the modders are the ones to blame.

edit: I signed with my name and WB can wipe their asses with it.

Who else would I blame? Let's clear some things up.

1. I love the work the team was doing on MERP. It looked AMAZING, Oblivion and Skyrim wise. I would gladly pay them for the mod if they wanted to charge, because I know I would play the heck out of it. Heck, I haven't touched the base M2TW in years, but I'm still playing TATW. They are clearly very, very talented.

2. I hate the fact that WB is in a position to do this. I don't think it's fair to shut out a mod, especially if it's free.

BUT. It is illegal if WB decides to take action against it. They will never get a result that lets them release the mod to the public. Private? Maybe. But never public in it's current state. You have to follow the law. I don't like paying taxes for example, but I have too. It's the law.

I'm super glad TATW never got into legal issues. And I'm sorry MERP did. But because MERP did, they have to obey the law.

[Vonebor]

BUT. It is illegal if WB decides to take action against it. They will never get a result that lets them release the mod to the public. Private? Maybe. But never public in it's current state. You have to follow the law. I don't like paying taxes for example, but I have too. It's the law.

God save us from armchair lawyers! Intellectual property laws only explicitly forbid use of copyrighted material for private monetary gain. Example: Right at this very moment I could go out right now and give away copies of Harry Potter for free on a street corner, I could write fan-fiction using Harry Potter characters, make a costume of a Harry Potter character, or make and sell some sort of Harry Potter parody. The only thing that I definitely cannot do is sell any of those first three things. The exact letter of the law in copyright fair use is extremely murky--the only way to determine whether MERP or any mod is in any way illegal is to take this case to court. I would actually prefer that myself--this could turn into an interesting legal battle if given proper funding on both sides. With how the current supreme court is stacked however, I'd be very much afraid of the result if this ever made it into the federal court system. As of now however, this is in no way the black and white issue you seem to want to paint it as. Personally, I'd be pulling for MERP. Legally, this case would probably be very much up in the air from an unbiased standpoint.

[Josh Knight]

God save us from armchair lawyers! Intellectual property laws only explicitly forbid use of copyrighted material for private monetary gain. Example: Right at this very moment I could go out right now and give away copies of Harry Potter for free on a street corner, I could write fan-fiction using Harry Potter characters, make a costume of a Harry Potter character, or make and sell some sort of Harry Potter parody. The only thing that I definitely cannot do is sell any of those first three things. The exact letter of the law in copyright fair use is extremely murky--the only way to determine whether MERP or any mod is in any way illegal is to take this case to court. I would actually prefer that myself--this could turn into an interesting legal battle if given proper funding on both sides. With how the current supreme court is stacked however, I'd be very much afraid of the result if this ever made it into the federal court system. As of now however, this is in no way the black and white issue you seem to want to paint it as. Personally, I'd be pulling for MERP. Legally, this case would probably be very much up in the air from an unbiased standpoint.

Armchair lawyer? I promise I know more about this than you do. And you are dead wrong. Here are the 4 criteria for fair use. If MERP is found to violate any of them, then it likely would be axed.

1. "the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes"

It is non-profit, but that doesn't matter if it violates another point. In Los Angeles Times v. Free Republic, even though the paper was found to have used material in non-profit manor, it still took away viewers from the other side. This is one of the biggest misconceptions. Just because it's non-profit doesn't mean it's acceptable. In fact, non-profit isn't even looked at the most.

2."the nature of the copyrighted work"

We are looking at not a book here, but a movie trilogy. A very recent, popular movie trilogy. This also works against MERP.

3."the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole"

Every single model of a city, weapon, or character that resembles a movie character or object would stack up until it renders this point against MERP as well.

4. "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

WB could easily argue that they would be losing money because of MERP. If that was the case, past court cases have gone against Fair Use just because of this one fact. It's losing the other side money.

And finally, the work also has to be "transformative" enough. If MERP is using a ring-bearer quest line, direct copies of movie sets, and other movie details, then I can't see a judge ruling for fair use here either.

I can also promise you WB's lawyers and money are much better quality than anything MERP can throw up. I'd bet any amount of money you want that in the event of a court battle, MERP would lose, waste a ton of money, and possibly face criminal charges if they refused to stop.

Is that detailed enough for you? BTW, this "Intellectual property laws only explicitly forbid use of copyrighted material for private monetary gain." isn't exactly true at all.

[Spice Master]

Right on all points. WB pretty clearly holds all the marbles in this case. It simply the fact that IP laws and case precedents are blatantly skewed in favor of the big money publishing/record/film/software companies. I really hope that WB doesn't get wind of TATW any time soon (like from a bunch of TATW users signing up and commenting on a useless online petition) or we'll likely see the exact same thing happen here.

[Ngugi]

Well put by Josh Knight.
This is of the essence I would say:

4. "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

WB could easily argue that they would be losing money because of MERP. If that was the case, past court cases have gone against Fair Use just because of this one fact. It's losing the other side money.

I presume as long as no big Middle-earth strategy game is planned in the near future of too similair concept to Total War [and that might would cause them problem in their turn rather haha] and not is/will to be distributed to such a 'hot medium' as Steam undoubtly are, TATW might be ignored.
Let's hope so

[The Holy Pilgrim]

In the interview Merp-team stated lotr will go "public domain" for them after the current setting, which is 70 years after the death of the original creator, which is what? 30 years? Not sure what country/law they referred that, but that is ridiculous.

As per the copyright laws in the United States

[ztree]

1. "the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes"

check. We are "non profit" as can be. I'm working on my 3d models from my bedroom.

2."the nature of the copyrighted work"
We are looking at not a book here, but a movie trilogy. A very recent, popular movie trilogy. This also works against MERP.

No. First and foremost we are looking at a book here (one of the most selling of the 20th century, but whatever). For example, we wanted to include all regions (models and heightmapping) of middle earth. This includes Dale, Ruhn, Harad, Nurnen, the northern wastes, all the fiefdoms of Gondor, all of Mordor and on and on. Most of these regions was never shown or exist in any movies or games that WB ever made. So we have to imagine about 90% of middle earth ourselves, because no product of WB ever made them. So we have to rely on the book and the book only while creating 90% of middle earth.

3."the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole"
Every single model of a city, weapon, or character that resembles a movie character or object would stack up until it renders this point against MERP as well.

Like I said before, if that is a point that WB wants to see changed (movie designs) then we are glad to abide and will change every movie resembling model that we ever made (into something of our own imagination). Btw, WB (WETA, the design studio in New Zealand, to be precise) was influenced as well by other sources when they made their LOTR stuff. For example, Rohan was heavily influenced by norse and viking designs. Does that mean that we aren't allowed to be influenced by viking designs ourselves? If so, then fine. We are even willing to abide by that.

4. "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."
WB could easily argue that they would be losing money because of MERP. If that was the case, past court cases have gone against Fair Use just because of this one fact. It's losing the other side money.

Honestly, this is the only point that I see, which is difficult to settle. But it is vague like hell. When does someone lose money, when someone else exists?
Who are we, that big ol' WB is afraid of loosing money because of us?
I tell you who we are. We are guys like this: http://http://www.pewpewpew.de/2011/...gard-aus-lego/
and this: http://www.geekologie.com/2009/03/wo...eated-in-m.php
and this: http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...QEwAw&dur=2001
and this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jackhynes/123311207/

What does Warner even want from us? Paint us as criminals? See us diminished? :dramatical music:

And finally, the work also has to be "transformative" enough. If MERP is using a ring-bearer quest line, direct copies of movie sets, and other movie details, then I can't see a judge ruling for fair use here either.

We are willing to cancel the ringbearer questline immediatedly. We don't use direct copys of movie sets or any ripp offs anyway, all our models that resemble movie stuff, are modeled from pictures and screenshots and are thus not exactly the same as the movie model by nature. For example, my Hornburg model has a unique texture, unique proportions and does only resemble the movie model on a first glance. I was only "influenced" by the movie model. It is not exactly the same. But even so, if WB wishes to see that model deleted and replaced by a new "un-influenced" one, I am happy to abide.

I can also promise you WB's lawyers and money are much better quality than anything MERP can throw up. I'd bet any amount of money you want that in the event of a court battle, MERP would lose, waste a ton of money, and possibly face criminal charges if they refused to stop.

Well, yeah they have more money compared to us. But I thought the law system doesn't favour the one who has more money, but the one who is right? Or have things changed in the U.S. since I last checked?
Btw, I am not even from the U.S. (I'm from Germany) and most of our devs aren't from the U.S. But we are even willing to abide by the U.S. laws, because we don't want to put our U.S. based devs in any danger of persecution. Like having their doors kicked in by the FBI during the night

[Vonebor]

I am well aware of the 4 stipulations of what fair use consists of in the United States, Mr. Knight. I'm not saying there is not a case to be made against MERP. In all probability, if this remained in the shadows, precedent and overwhelming corporate money would make this an open and shut case. Though I would argue that the court case you sited was not an excellent example--Free Republic was in clear violation of the 4th stipulation you yourself sighted since they were wholly taking a copyrighted work and preventing the copyright holder from receiving their main revenue source from it, i.e. site traffic and ad money. MERP's violation of the 4th stipulation is much more open to interpretation and therefore, argumentation.

Therefore, what I would suggest would be the more favorable outcome for the modding community in general (so that we don't have to wait in fear of some corporation coming to crush our beloved mods) is that this would see the light of day and get a open public trial, with some group like the ACLU coming at bat for the mod. In this turn of events, I could see a favorable move against the rather hazy precedents setup before this. The public must be made aware of this vile copyright culture before it strangles us. And since Congress is too useless to actually determine how this is to be done, a bit of judicial activism could go a long way towards clearing this mess up.

As I said in my previous post though, the Supreme Court's decision in this matter would actually probably hurt current practice rather than reform it. Though there's always hope of course, I question how far their devotion to free speech and expression would actually extend.

As for the modders having to face criminal charges, that is incredibly unlikely--they are abiding by the cease and desist order, which is apparently the first notification they received from Warner Bros. regarding their alleged copyright infringement.

Another note: I was unaware that MERP had been straying toward using the actual plot of the movies for their quest structure. That does seem rather brash. The last I had read on the mod, they had been moving toward more of an open world experience with their own unique quest line and characters.

[Vonebor]

Oh and I wanted to avoid using this rather trite quote, but it's just too tempting. For all those advocating cowering in fear, might I suggest reading the following quote from a Mr. Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

What I am suggesting is that solidarity is important, by the way, not that the WB is a Nazi company.

[ztree]

Another note: I was unaware that MERP had been straying toward using the actual plot of the movies for their quest structure. That does seem rather brash. The last I had read on the mod, they had been moving toward more of an open world experience with their own unique quest line and characters.

While I agree with most what ou posted, I have to correct you there, my friend.
The plot of the movies was never, I repeat never, on the table. What we meant with "ringbearer questline" was the events from the books, from the perspective of Frodo Baggins, the ringbearer. With you, the player, being able to experience this and be able to make your own decisions as a ringbearer. Meaning that you can choose to go a different path than Frodo at any time. Moria or the gate of Rohan? Leave the fellowship earlier than at the falls of Rauros? Going into Mordor over a different route? Killing Smeagol?
And that is transformative in my opinion.
Also, we intended to not take any quotes directly from the books (copyright) but to tell it in our own words (more game friendly).
Until the C&D arrived, our writers were as far as the chapters of Bree (after meeting Strider for the first time) in terms of writing the script for the "ringbearer questline" in their own words.

We don't even like the movies that much, to be honest. The only things from the movies, would have been the designs for some models (because they are popular and we didn't want to disturb most LOTR fans).

[ztree]

Btw, how can I edit my posts here? On my post #152 you have to remove a "http://" from some of the links, because they are doubled. Sorry 'bout that.

[scouter535]

Personally, I would like to see MERP succeed. However, optimism is a bit hard to come by. I wish we could all say there are no grounds against them, but there are. It remains to be seen if the grounds are significant enough to stop them.

And ztree, you need a certain number of posts to gain editing rights. Its a little weird and I can't tell you the number off the top of my head. I want to say somewhere between 20 and 50.

[StealthFox]

Btw, how can I edit my posts here? On my post #152 you have to remove a "http://" from some of the links, because they are doubled. Sorry 'bout that.

And ztree, you need a certain number of posts to gain editing rights. Its a little weird and I can't tell you the number off the top of my head. I want to say somewhere between 20 and 50.

You must have 25 posts and have been registered here for at least a week, and I fixed the links for you ztree.

[UberFoX]

If this was about *fear* that the mod is better than their RPG they are thinking of making then they should just license the Skyrim engine off Bethesda and make a LOTR RPG for it and shut the hell up.

Im sure if it was good it would make a lot of money so whats the big deal? Make a good game and people will buy it! Infact LOTR fans WAIT for such games and will readily buy it.

There is no excuses... All WB is doing is creating hatred for them by the fans.

It wouldnt surprise me if everybody who sees this fiasco simply pirates WB games from now on and never gives them a dime.

They clearly dont deserve your money.

[Bowmaster]

If they don't want to lose money because of MERP and it's team, why not just hire them to do a great game for them?

And don't they understand that this is not wisest move to do? Many people now hate Warner Bros. Bros=Brothers, yeah, for sure. I've seen about a hundred times someone saying: "screw Warner Bros" or "I will never buy any products of Warner Bros anymore (above)".