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Thread: Preview: Governments

  1. #1
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Preview: Governments

    The upcoming release will feature a semi-functioning government structure. However, the government structure is fairly complex, and so I feel the need to explain how it works (or will work, in some cases - the next release focuses on getting units recruitable, and leaves some elements of the government structure still a work in progess) in the form of a preview.

    Broadly, the government structure was inspired by a mixture of those in RTR-VII, RTR 6, and indeed EB. What I ended up coming up with was a structure which broadly fits all factions, and offers different paths to integrating the settlement:



    (note that the "i"s will appear as "i" ingame - for some reason, they didn't like me resizing the image)

    The names vary as per faction as appropriate, and some specifics vary as well, but the basic structure remains the same.

    At the point of conquest, only the most basic (ie first tier) buildings can be built. The settlement will also have high levels of unrest and not generate much in the way of income. At this point, there are two choices: To establish direct control over the settlement, or to establish a client state.

    Should you choose subjugation, public order will remain low for the time being, but once you integrate the settlement into your kingdom, public order will rise as the people accept their new masters. From the level "Integration" onwards, you will be able to recruit AoR units, and the settlement will become economically productive. You will also be able to take a direct hand in building more infrastructure in the region.

    If on the other hand you establish a Client State, you will have a more stress-free region. With the people in the new Client State having things carrying on largely as they were before, public order won't be a problem. The region will however be only moderately economically productive, as the Client State will keep most of its money for itself, and merely pay a tribute to its master. You will also not be able to take a direct hand in improving its infrastructure, which would be seen as meddling. However, the Client State will lend its men to fight, so you will be able to recruit AoRs.

    A Client State does not have to remain a Client State. It is possible to reverse your decision and reoccupy it, though that will of course cause unrest and generally negate the benefits of the Client State. A more peaceful way can also be followed: A longstanding Client State (ie a tier 2 one) will have joined its fate to your state long enough that the people will trust you enough to accept you as rulers, as for instance happened in the case of Pergamon and Rome. The settlement can then come under your direct control; however, this takes a lot longer than subjugating the settlement to your rule from the first.

    The path from Integration to creating a new Home Province involves Colonisation. Or should I say the settlement of your people in that region. I am applying this term to a range of different activities, from the true establishment of colonies as for instance by the Greeks, Phoenicians and later the Romans, to the establishment of military settlements by the Macedonian conquerors, to the various migrations of the northern "barbarian" tribes.

    This process obviously produces benefits to the region - higher growth, more prosperity, and higher public order. It also allows you to recruit factional troops. The colonisation building tree is culture-specific (as in real culture, not ingame culture - for instance, the Celtic factions have their own tree, whilst the Germans have another, and so on), and is separate to the government structure itself, though it can only be built from the integration stage onwards. It then allows you to upgrade the government of the region and turn it into a Home Province, which will be able to recruit all (or nearly all) faction troops, and will fulfill its economic potential to the max.

    This is a lengthy process in FO. Unlike many modders, I don't see the problem with very long build times - this took a long time in history as well. This means that, depending on the speed of your conquests, many of your regions may not be contributing economically as they could, so you not be able to support more troops than your core can. This rather favours small, compact factions - the large Hellenistic empires will have many not fully integrated settlements, and so will not be as powerful as they first appear. I have hopes that this will mean that small factions can stand up to larger ones, discouraging steamrolling.

    However, note that the AI's handling of this system isn't great at the moment, and AI factions don't tend to grow much. This is largely due to a few problems in the coding, which I will correct in future, and possible also due to imbalances in finances (I haven't focused hugely on the economy yet, and only about half the buildings are in place).

    Also, as a final note, the role of capitals, as in RTR-VII, is crucial. Do not lose your capital, or you may face economic and political collapse. In the case of the Hellenistic kingdoms, you may have multiple capitals, though one will always be your main one (so for instance the Seleucids have their main capital at Antioch, but the loss of Seleucia would also hurt them far more than the loss of a regular settlement). This, of course, can work as both an advantage and a disadvantage - the faction must protect more settlements, but the loss of one will not cause as great a collapse.
    RTR-VII Team Leader and Leader of Fortuna Orbis, an RTR Submod

    "History has only one concern and aim, and that is the useful; which again has one single source, and that is truth." -Lucian of Samosata

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  2. #2
    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    Sounds impressive

  3. #3
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    I didn´t check for updates a long time and now when I did a new very interesting preview! Thanks

  4. #4

    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    very detailed and realistic. I can only imagine the amount of work that went into this !




  5. #5
    Stath's's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    Nice and rewarding!!


  6. #6
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    Thanks guys There are still bugs in the system, but they will be ironed out, if not for the next patch, then for the one afterwards
    RTR-VII Team Leader and Leader of Fortuna Orbis, an RTR Submod

    "History has only one concern and aim, and that is the useful; which again has one single source, and that is truth." -Lucian of Samosata

    Fortuna Orbis Beta is released!

  7. #7
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    Good luck with hunting down the bugs

  8. #8
    debux's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    Sounds good! But when you say "the AI's handling of this system isn't great at the moment, and AI factions don't tend to grow much", do you mean that the AI isn't building the government buildings? Because I might have an idea on how to make the AI prioritize building government buildings, but I've never tested it myself (the idea sprung a few weeks ago), but I'm not sure if it could work. If not, disregard my comment, and be sure that this system sounds pretty good. Can't wait to test it myself though
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  9. #9
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    I haven't investigated in detail, but I know that AI expansion is very limited, and the AI usually can't hold settlements. I have been able to do so, so the public order shouldn't really be too low for it, but that is a possibility. But I think it might rather be because the bottom level of government is coded in to give massive penalties from the building itself, meaning that the AI, not really understanding the overall system but just looking at what that settlement offers, will not want to build that building. To fix this, the penalties need to be assigned in another building (such as the core settlement size building or the "town square" building) on the condition that the government building is built. The prices and build times may also need some tweaking.

    What's your idea? I figured that by making no buildings above the 1st tier buildable (and those only not because it isn't possible to attach faction specific conditions to them) the AI will have less choice and will hopefully build the government buildings - especially once I make them appear to give good bonuses.
    RTR-VII Team Leader and Leader of Fortuna Orbis, an RTR Submod

    "History has only one concern and aim, and that is the useful; which again has one single source, and that is truth." -Lucian of Samosata

    Fortuna Orbis Beta is released!

  10. #10
    Hannibal Baca's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    And building times for them ?
    I suggest from 1-10 please no 21 like in RTR VII .

    Developer also i am part of Rise of Nations and Black Knights.
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  11. #11
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    It'll depend on the building, but I think that having, say, Integration taking only a few turns would be a bit laughable.
    RTR-VII Team Leader and Leader of Fortuna Orbis, an RTR Submod

    "History has only one concern and aim, and that is the useful; which again has one single source, and that is truth." -Lucian of Samosata

    Fortuna Orbis Beta is released!

  12. #12
    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    You are right integration should take a very long time and in some cases military occupation never really went away, I use Britannia and especially Palestine as a example. Roman forces were concentrated in these areas and had to face numerous revolts their entire history.
    Palestine again! The Seleukids had to fight the Maccabean revolt
    Last edited by Antiokhos Euergetes; September 05, 2012 at 07:36 AM.

  13. #13
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    many interesting ideas here

  14. #14
    debux's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula Caesar View Post
    I haven't investigated in detail, but I know that AI expansion is very limited, and the AI usually can't hold settlements. I have been able to do so, so the public order shouldn't really be too low for it, but that is a possibility. But I think it might rather be because the bottom level of government is coded in to give massive penalties from the building itself, meaning that the AI, not really understanding the overall system but just looking at what that settlement offers, will not want to build that building. To fix this, the penalties need to be assigned in another building (such as the core settlement size building or the "town square" building) on the condition that the government building is built. The prices and build times may also need some tweaking.

    What's your idea? I figured that by making no buildings above the 1st tier buildable (and those only not because it isn't possible to attach faction specific conditions to them) the AI will have less choice and will hopefully build the government buildings - especially once I make them appear to give good bonuses.
    Sorry for taking so long to answer, it just has been a pretty busy week Well, my idea is very similar to yours, actualy exactly the same, except for a small itme, but I'm not sure if it can be implemented. So you have this base building that represents the settlement without any form of government (as if the town would be in anarchy), and therefore having huge penalties in public order and income. However, the government buildings would have enough bonuses of these two elements to be able to counter this "anarchic base building" (plus some bonuses to give them certain advantages to each form of government), that would be high enough for the AI to build them as a first priority.

    However, this is the hard part: in order to avoid government buildings from different factions from stacking up (if a town has been conquered several times), a script could be made to damage, or even destroy these governmental buildings, leaving the settlement without any form of government. If the AI behaves logically (which I doubt though ), it will try to go for the first building that gives it the best bonuses against the "anarchic base building", which would be the government building.

    I don't know if it has been tried or not, or if it's even possible, but I just thought I could throw in a utopian scenario where the AI would build the government buildings as it should.
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  15. #15
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    Yeah, that's pretty similar to how its going to work. By the way, the government building only gives bonuses to one faction per building
    RTR-VII Team Leader and Leader of Fortuna Orbis, an RTR Submod

    "History has only one concern and aim, and that is the useful; which again has one single source, and that is truth." -Lucian of Samosata

    Fortuna Orbis Beta is released!

  16. #16
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    I forgot to mention the fact that AoR units are a little cheaper than factional units, but morale penalties. So you can muster more AoR troops than factional ones, but unless your faction is useless (and I don't think I have any of those, really ), you will want to have mostly factional units in the army.
    RTR-VII Team Leader and Leader of Fortuna Orbis, an RTR Submod

    "History has only one concern and aim, and that is the useful; which again has one single source, and that is truth." -Lucian of Samosata

    Fortuna Orbis Beta is released!

  17. #17
    debux's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    That's pretty good, mostly mods don't consider that troops from allied/subjugated regions were usually less willing to fight for another faction... I also had thought that maybe factional units could get a xp bonus in homeland regions (where the city is considered an integrate part of the state), to emphasize your idea even further, but it might end up messing up all the balancing.
    Linky linky to my last.fm profile! Clicky clicky! If you like anything that ranges from breakbeat to downtempo/chillout, from house to drum & bass, you might find something new in between! (Artist suggestions are more than welcome )


  18. #18
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Preview: Governments

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiochos II Theos View Post
    Sounds impressive
    I double that!

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