Divine Conquest CCMv2 Hotseat Reborn (Poland Open!)

**Mithridate** · January 10, 2013, 11:41 PM

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Thank you england, thank you

ye broke me chains, youve given me a second chance

Originally Posted by jado818

I don't think it's anything really against us personally, Mithridate is just playing his steamroll strategy in the hopes he can conquer enough to eventually dominate the board. He is looking for any reason to roleplay his war effort. This was in fact the first attack I've done against the aztecs. They haven't made a single offer of peace any where nor do I realistically expect them too. I thought they might see the benefit of stopping the Muslims but I think he is enjoying his roleplay savage conquest right now.

I dont at all like this team up to win the game mentality but no, really not

If i cause offense with my long messages of desperate struggle, glorious war and angry rants then please say so and ill cease ( as i did when you said you where growing tired of my playing the inferior and bullied newcomer Timur, even tho it was my best card to play )
However, i have offered peace in this thread some 4 times

But no, i no longer want peace.

The east becoming too strong is a big threat but one ill have to take, because i really could not fight the 4 of you and i may be a deceptive bastard but im no turncloak that goes back on my word. Im in Englands debt and shall see them win over Denmark at least. Poland, focus on the east or watch your men die needlessly in the west for that is all they will do.

Originally Posted by jado818

That's how you play with the strongest / cheapest units in the game heh. I can see why people had qualms against the aztecs when first playing this ;p

Might have to adjust their upkeep costs in the next variation of this hotseat.

I honestly dont see much of a problem with the aztec, part from their need to be able to make more than 2 ships in each port and never upgrade beyond... port.

The more i play em the more i think this OP aztec is rubbish. Sami axemen stand toe to toe with my Eagle warriors and Jaguars while being cheaper. jaguars being way more expensive to train and keep, Eagle warriors having almost the same price. Beyond earlygame (we are just moving beyond that imho) im severely outclassed by every faction.

I have to convert everything into towns and build em up from the ground to then get passable availability of troops while your castles churn out incredible amounts of troops.

Originally Posted by jado818

Yah, Denmark is pretty strong also, Aztecs edge them out man for man though which seems odd given game balance. I never played the Aztecs or poked around with them on any campaigns until this hotseat. They don't seem to have been implemented in a balanced fashion.

Indeed, denmark got one bloody good unit pool. But England got a better one lategame (best in the game) tho theyre kinda rubbish compared to everyone early. the Iberian factions also being pretty lackluster, to become pretty strong late ( france is bloody good all game, but poor position ) The italians militia simply is too strong imho

**jado818** · January 11, 2013, 12:09 AM

I think you are missing the point entirely trying to compare later end units. Which I would point out the Eagle warriors do have the advantage over the sami axemen and are only on a level 2 building instead of level 3 building.

The point is the level 1 barracks for the aztecs produce a unit with no experience with 9 attack 10 defense. No other faction can pump out strong cheap fodder like that. That's the balance I speak of. You are just swarming with level 1 units. It would be like if I was conquering the entire map with peasants.

I don't blame you for taking advantage of the game mechanics in this way, that is after all why you chose the faction yes? It is more a note I will take for future games to make the game more interesting for the entire group.

You picked the strongest faction because you wanted to "win", not because you wanted a challenge for fun. You even mention that when you picked the faction.

This is a game for fun, idc if I lose as long as it's fun and the roleplay is interesting which it has been. I was merely taking notes on the Aztec faction and they are indeed the most OP, but that doesn't mean other factions aren't OP in other ways as you have mentioned. Why do you think there are so many mod's people are always trying to find the best balance for fun.

**Mithridate** · January 11, 2013, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by jado818

I think you are missing the point entirely trying to compare later end units. Which I would point out the Eagle warriors do have the advantage over the sami axemen and are only on a level 2 building instead of level 3 building.

Aztecs are also over a dozen turn away from everyone, by the time they reach anyone, they are prepared and have obtained castles, multiple castles. Eagle warriors are pretty neck tied with the Sami and cannot be upgraded.

Originally Posted by jado818

The point is the level 1 barracks for the aztecs produce a unit with no experience with 9 attack 10 defense. No other faction can pump out strong cheap fodder like that. That's the balance I speak of. You are just swarming with level 1 units. It would be like if I was conquering the entire map with peasants.

Regular spear militia have 7 attack and 11 def but can be upgraded to 7 attack 13 def easily, outclassing my spears whom cannot be upgraded (completely outclassing them when upgraded to max n with weapons). That its a tier 1 barrack i find pretty irrelevant, most places already have a lvl 2 barrack or more. Sure an aztec large town cannot even be matched by italians militarily, but this quickly becomes irrelevant due to upgrades and castles and was never a major thing to begin with.

I lost most of my "swarm" in Iberia, ive saved my best and brightest for Milan. England however was swarmed and i still stood no chance against his might but had to run, check the early saves and youll see what i mean. I rushed everything, spammed all mercs from turn 1 and still had about half his strength.

Originally Posted by jado818

I don't blame you for taking advantage of the game mechanics in this way, that is after all why you chose the faction yes? It is more a note I will take for future games to make the game more interesting for the entire group.

What advantage of game mechanics?

Originally Posted by jado818

You picked the strongest faction because you wanted to "win", not because you wanted a challenge for fun. You even mention that when you picked the faction.

Now im getting angry

This was long ago but this is my memory:

I wanted them banned due to being OP, they where not and after checking em i found it to not at all be so bad.
Also: As i stated moments ago i really do not think they are OP, but like most factions in DC they need to be tweaked to suit for hotseating as they have so many highs n lows.

Originally Posted by jado818

This is a game for fun, idc if I lose as long as it's fun and the roleplay is interesting which it has been. I was merely taking notes on the Aztec faction and they are indeed the most OP, but that doesn't mean other factions aren't OP in other ways as you have mentioned. Why do you think there are so many mod's people are always trying to find the best balance for fun.

Its great that you seek to improve the awesome that is Medieval 2 n mods?
I too love to throw in RP with posts, in good times as well as bad^^

**Vasilefs** · January 11, 2013, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by jado818

I thought they might see the benefit of stopping the Muslims

What I am supposed to do,Sicily invaded my territory with massive military force,I have defeated it and I am counter attacking now.

What about you and Denmark?Hungary,HRE,France,Russia,Mongols are all destroyed after they are attacked by your aggressive block.Poland and Denmark now control entire central,north and east Europe,worse your coalition is main aggressor,with only one interest,not to help your supposed allies but to expand your territory and power.

Finally Shi'a Caliphate is not allied with no one beside Romans,but we will establish friendly relations with "unknown warriors" from west,together we will be able to smash your aggressive coalition.

**Mithridate** · January 11, 2013, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Vasilefs

Finally Shi'a Caliphate is not allied with no one beside Romans,but we will establish friendly relations with "unknown warriors" from west,together we will be able to smash your aggressive coalition.

Aye!

However: Sicily have truly stayed neutral in our conflict ( despite clearly standing with our enemies )
thus despite our suspicion this is only due to being militarily unable to strike us due to your onslaught
we will not strike Sicily to gain the favor of the great East even though we are now able.

But let it be known, Sicily are no friends of the Lunar Republic

**jado818** · January 11, 2013, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Vasilefs

What I am supposed to do,Sicily invaded my territory with massive military force,I have defeated it and I am counter attacking now.

What about you and Denmark?Hungary,HRE,France,Russia,Mongols are all destroyed after they are attacked by your aggressive block.Poland and Denmark now control entire central,north and east Europe,worse your coalition is main aggressor,with only one interest,not to help your supposed allies but to expand your territory and power.

Finally Shi'a Caliphate is not allied with no one beside Romans,but we will establish friendly relations with "unknown warriors" from west,together we will be able to smash your aggressive coalition.

I was just roleplaying trying to add a diplomacy aspect to the game, nothing against you Vasilef lol. Trying to make the game into more than just build units and expand in an ink blot strategy.

Mithridate, I doubt you can be objective in this matter because you are playing the faction right now so you are interested in maintaining the "sanctity" of your game prowess here.

I would point out though, at the beginning of this hotseat you were arguing that Aztecs were OP, and with that mentality in mind were saying they shouldn't be allowed to be played, or if they are in game you wanted to play them. Your interest in playing the faction that at the time you were abundantly clear was OP can only be speculated upon, but my speculation was your interest was to gain advantage.

It is possible to reach Spain and conquer a city in well under a dozen turns while still harassing Britain and the taking over the other Aztec cities. I managed to do so also in a few test games I ran with the Aztecs. Heck even looking back at this hotseat you conquered your first Europe city on turn 12.

I think the big thing about the way this turned out was the entire coastline was AI so nobody was in a position to prevent you from swarming. So now you can just swarm a bunch of cheap powerful units.

Again, I don't fault you for playing the game the best you can and you aren't doing anything wrong. I think the problems here are more to do with the way the players were spread out and some game balance issues. If you put (one of?) the most powerful faction not bordered by any human player, with a bunch of undefended AI territories it's bound to happen this way lol.

**Mithridate** · January 11, 2013, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by jado818

Mithridate, I doubt you can be objective in this matter because you are playing the faction right now so you are interested in maintaining the "sanctity" of your game prowess here.

Then poke holes in what im saying instead of dismissing me, i know my own bias and compensate as far as im able. flaunting the weaknesses ive got no problem with, nor my strengths.

Originally Posted by jado818

I would point out though, at the beginning of this hotseat you were arguing that Aztecs were OP, and with that mentality in mind were saying they shouldn't be allowed to be played, or if they are in game you wanted to play them.

Im not denying this, im saying i was wrong. My doubts can be seen when i had actually downloaded the mod so i was able to see for myself, and my statements where based upon having fought them very recently as spain with mostly militia. Actially playing a faction gives you perspective.

Originally Posted by jado818

It is possible to reach Spain and conquer a city in well under a dozen turns while still harassing Britain and the taking over the other Aztec cities. I managed to do so also. Heck even looking back at this hotseat you conquered your first Europe city on turn 12.

Yes, thats a dozen turns and my closest target rennes. It should be noted i had about a stack and a half vs englands three out of whom one stack was mostly armored spearmen.

Originally Posted by jado818

I think the big thing about the way this turned out was the entire coastline was AI so nobody was in a position to prevent you from swarming. So now you can just swarm a bunch of cheap powerful units.

Agreed, tho had Iberia been Moorish id been doomed in this hotseat. i lost the war in England and i sincerely doubt the Moors would have proven significantly weaker than England, and theyd have the home turn to replenish their armies while i was still...

a dozen turns away

Originally Posted by jado818

Again, I don't fault you for playing the game the best you can and you aren't doing anything wrong. I think the problems here are more to do with the way the players were spread out and some game balance issues. If you put (one of?) the most powerful faction not bordered by any human player, with a bunch of undefended AI territories it's bound to happen this way lol.

Indeed, tho saying im bordering to AI iberia is like saying Denmark is bordering ( i should say eastern) Russia

**jado818** · January 11, 2013, 01:14 AM

Mithridate, you can reach the Moors in 9 turns. Like I said, I made mistakes in setting up this hotseat but you are being overly defensive here. I didn't make sure factions were spread out enough to prevent this situation. It is my fault.

It's a hotseat for fun lol. It doesn't matter who wins, so what if you had a big advantage (or if you were at a severe disadvantage like you seem to think) at the start. The issue is one of no human player occupying any of the 4 factions closest to you, they were surround by AI.

Next hotseat we can make more even is what I was discussing, not anything pertaining to this game here. I was merely recognizing my failures in managing this hotseat from the start to prevent a situation such as this from coming up.

I don't need a multiquote either. Just hold conversation xD

**Mithridate** · January 11, 2013, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by jado818

Mithridate, you can reach the Moors in 9 turns. Like I said, I made mistakes in setting up this hotseat but you are being overly defensive here. I didn't make sure factions were spread out enough to prevent this situation. It is my fault.

No i cant, i can siege rennes or lisbon on turn 10 ( 9 turns travel ) with almost 2/3 stack being mostly turn 1 mercenaries setting sail immediately. its further to get down to the moorish lands by several turns... And its no ones fault, i think everything have worked out brilliantly with getting lucky in the war vs Milan.

Second stack of troops could arrive some 8 turns later with a couple Eagle warriors in it

Originally Posted by jado818

It's a hotseat for fun lol. It doesn't matter who wins, so what if you had a big advantage (or if you were at a severe disadvantage like you seem to think) at the start. The issue is one of no human player occupying any of the 4 factions closest to you, they were surround by AI.

England was AI for a couple turns only, and was Iberia not to be taken by only one faction?

As mentioned, Iberia human and id all but certainly be doomed to live my days in the Americas only.

To me it matters whom wins, i really play to win

And the notion im winning being because im OP i view to be wrong, thus it offends me as... I think ive played pretty brilliantly and been lucky. Call me full of myself if you will^^

Originally Posted by jado818

Next hotseat we can make more even is what I was discussing, not anything pertaining to this game here. I was merely recognizing my failures in managing this hotseat from the start to prevent a situation such as this from coming up.

Youve not failed at all imho as this is a very interesting hotseat far from over, but i too would not allow aztecs as theyre too much of a glass cannon, unless i manage to get a foothold as i have id be useless. Now i stand a chance to really affect the game tho victory is unlikely due to lategame uselessness... Pretty solely due to my naval issue

Had Iberia been human, id been utterly doomed quite frankly

had it been two players... Things could have become very interesting there. Aztec works as a human faction, but they need ships.

**jado818** · January 11, 2013, 03:17 AM

You are wrong and I don't feel it's in the best interest of this current hotseat to explain entirely why here. If you wish for me to elaborate further on why you are wrong I would be willing to do so in the hotseat community tavern thread provided you can stop from multiquoting everything. It makes reading your posts incredibly difficult.

Let this hotseat continue until completion and get back to the game / roleplaying.

**Mithridate** · January 11, 2013, 03:41 AM

Sure, tavern it is unless you want to keep it private

Tho i thought my quotations made it easier to respond by keeping it compact and consise,
especially some of your later paragraph refers to previous ones...

Apologies, i shall respond with one big block quotations^^

**IZob** · January 11, 2013, 03:55 AM

I will need a slight extensions, say 11 hours. Sorry, I hope it isn't too inconvenient.

**Vipman** · January 11, 2013, 05:30 AM

Just popped in to say sorry, as it's my "fault" for all this for not taking Portugal as I initially wanted, it would really have been interesting, for me ofc, for Mith it would have been his doom

However I don't regret my decision. Now I hope I'll be able to better control myself from ever posting in HS I don't play

, so good day to all.

**jado818** · January 11, 2013, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by IZob

I will need a slight extensions, say 11 hours. Sorry, I hope it isn't too inconvenient.

That's ok Izob

**IZob** · January 11, 2013, 06:46 PM

Well this was stupid, having an Aztec player but no one in Iberia/Nth Africa

**Mithridate** · January 12, 2013, 01:03 AM

Oh and Tonno, still awaiting replies to the messages ive sent your way

**Tonno** · January 13, 2013, 08:00 AM

I couldn't enter TWC whole day.
Playing now...

Well the result pic is missing again. I lost 2 man if I recall well.
Sorry for that.

**Dr Mac** · January 13, 2013, 04:25 PM

Lunar up!

**Mithridate** · January 13, 2013, 06:15 PM

Used a small unit to pull out the hiding milanese army as before

Polands "Offer" of peace has been rejected and does nothing but strengthen our resolve as we crush their invading forces of terrifying... archers... Their so called "prince" left to rot on the slopes where he was killed, fleeing for his life.

In Italy, our forces set the proud city of Florence ablaze and the great emperor himself captured Genoa in a surprise attack as our forces marched for Milan itself. On the path a hidden Milanese army was encountered, baited and driven back to the great city. Well there, a monumental battle was fought for all of Northern Italy.

A battle we won, Milan is surrounded and its defenders have been broken.
Iberia is Aztec, Aztec is death... We fight and die for the Lunar Republic!

**IZob** · January 13, 2013, 08:52 PM

Well I am done with this hotseat thank you. It was... disappointing, fighting the Aztec troops and losing in almost every quarter. I can only blame my tactical erros, and the game having allowed the Aztec's to sail, and use siege weapons. Which is quite terrifying; Combined with their strong starting economy in America, and very good combat units, its very hard to defeat them. If you are to repeat this hotseat with this mod, I would deffinatly suggest having a player for Spain, Portugal or Moors to counter Aztec expansion.

And I get that unpleasant reminder of hotseats: replaying turns and the long period of free time we get to play each turn.

Sometimes I don't have the patience or time, to check for errors in my plans like Mith. It is annoying to have to replay a turn, as some may know. But its things like that if you don't check, which can put you at a disadvantage. For example, Mith may not have found Argometto without first drawing him out of the forest by intentionally being defeated in battle (quote, it was "baited" into moving. Hardily a fair tactic imo as no general in charge of a large army like that, would sacrifice his position to a few small units). Sure he might have a spy or agent there, or maybe Mith regularly sends out units as scouts. But that's not always the case for every situation. Another example of over-checking every detail, is defeating ships at sea after an extensive replay and search sequence of turns.

This is unfortunately part of hotseats, as is the time required to play a turn. Banning replaying turns is as futile as stopping a cautious player planning his/her army positions.

If only the game mechanics were better,

A player could not replay their turn,
An army would stay in ambush until defeated. Visible only when spotted by scouts,
Range units would actually be effective in auto resolve battles

If only Unspoken Knight didn't give the Aztec's boats

Want to say thank you to jado for hosting/moderating the game, and for subbing my faction.

If I can have a last request, it would be to give my remaining provinces to Poland, since he is the only ally to actually help me fight the Aztecs in the war (yeah he isn't an official ally in the game, but ally in war, none the less). Denmark did provide some support: gifts and diplomacy with England. But as far as money gifts go, not really worth a province in return. And the diplomacy failed, as you can see with England's stance in the war now. As for Tonno, he didn't do much. Not that he could do anything anyway. Too busy in his own war