request regarding late republican legions

[Architeuthis]

In anticipation of Rome II I decided to give Roma Surrectum II a try. I am genuinely impressed by the quality of the mod, both in size and scope. Really, the only thing which I find dreadful is the lack of auto replenishment, but that’s really a pre-warscape engine issue.

Having advanced into the ‘imperial age’ (i.e. access to the shiny segmentata legions) I can really appreciate the mod in all its splendor. However, as much as I love the late republican legions, their appearance is somewhat anachronistic when deployed next their imperial brothers in arms. Would it be possible to implement a mechanic that would reequip the late republican legions (e.g. Legio I Germanica, Legio II Augusta, Legio VIII Augusta etc.) with imperial equipment? Something similar to the ‘post marian general’ option in the launcher would be preferable.

Mind you, I’m not asking for entirely redesigned units. I would be fine with using any given imperial legion and just changing the flag the standard bearer is carrying. Such a solution would more than suffice.

[tone]

?auto replenishment

That's a nice idea about having early and late legions swapping via the launcher. Will give some thought.

[Redwallzyl]

auto replenish is where units will slowly gain troops back when in friendly teritory like in later TW games. having the republian cohorts turn into legenary cohorts would be nice to.

[Tar-Elendil]

As for the upgrading of the Hamata legions to Segmentata, we are currently working on this in a submod called "The Year of Four Emperors". It's still a WIP and there's no beta yet.

@Tone, if you would like, when I am finished re-doing the hamata skins to segmentata, you could take a look and consider using them for a feature like the 'swapper' idea in RSII. Afterall, they are your skins I would be tweaking, because they're yours really, by default.

@Redwallzyl, The Republican Legions already do turn into the Legionaries when you trigger the 2nd phase of the reforms in the form of the name and numbered legions.

[Redwallzyl]

yes but you have to disband and retrain your entire army of pre reform legions to the post reform legions I'm talking about the unnamed and unnumbered post reform legions because you cant retrain them any more.

[Tar-Elendil]

That is correct. The fact that you cannot retrain the generic roman legionaries is historically accurate to reflect the fact that Augustus re-organized the Roman Military after winning his civil war with Antony and assuming the Principate. He disbanded nearly 50 legions give or take, and reorganized the Empire into the 28 named and numbered legions that are featured in RSII. Therefore, it's on purpose that they cannot be recruited anymore.

However, if you truly want them still there are two alternatives.

One, you could simply recruit the Evocatii, which are very similar to the old roman legionaries and use them as garrison troops or to bolster the legions.

Two, you could attempt modding the EBU yourself to maintain the generic legions' recruitability.

[Architeuthis]

?auto replenishment

That's a nice idea about having early and late legions swapping via the launcher. Will give some thought.

I dare say it's the single greatest innovation in the franchise hehe. Well, of the best additions to the series anyway. It truly is a shame that mechanic can’t be retroactively added to pre-warscape total war titles. Auxiliary units especially would benefit from its inclusion.

Anyway, great news that you’ll give the matter some thought!

As for the upgrading of the Hamata legions to Segmentata, we are currently working on this in a submod called "The Year of Four Emperors". It's still a WIP and there's no beta yet.

@Tone, if you would like, when I am finished re-doing the hamata skins to segmentata, you could take a look and consider using them for a feature like the 'swapper' idea in RSII. Afterall, they are your skins I would be tweaking, because they're yours really, by default.

@Redwallzyl, The Republican Legions already do turn into the Legionaries when you trigger the 2nd phase of the reforms in the form of the name and numbered legions.

Excellent news, looking forward to the mod.

[rory o'kane]

I'm excited by this idea. I LOVE segmentata (i have a set of my own), so I'm really looking forward to this - though I will point out that hamata was still used during the period that segmentata was used, and eventually superseded it, so the chainmail isn't anachronistic - but yes, the idea of giving them Imperial Gallic helmets and rectangular semi-cylindrical scuta sounds great!

[Sertorio]

I'm excited by this idea. I LOVE segmentata (i have a set of my own), so I'm really looking forward to this - though I will point out that hamata was still used during the period that segmentata was used, and eventually superseded it, so the chainmail isn't anachronistic - but yes, the idea of giving them Imperial Gallic helmets and rectangular semi-cylindrical scuta sounds great!

It probably makes sense replacing the Monfortinos and the oval scuta but totally erasing the chain-mail is not historical. I think it would be a step in the wrong direction. Sculptures of the same era of Trajan's column don't even make any mention to the segmentata.

[Tar-Elendil]

Do you mean not erasing the Lorica hamatas from the legionaires. auxilia, or both? There can still be hamata in the form of the evocatii and auxilia, but I was under the impression that the armour of most of the mid 1st century AD consisted of Segmentata/Squamata variations such as the Cordbridge type A and B and the Newstead.

[tone]

I too think it would be a mistake to get rid of all hamata on legions.
What we need are some legions with bracae (breeches), a few with squamata, maybe change a couple to segmentata, bit for the most part it's just about changing helmets and scuta.

[Tar-Elendil]

I agree, especially since some legions probably never had Segmentata such as the I Germanica, disbanded after the Batavian Rebellion, and the V Alaudae as well. However, I was thinking of updating the hamatas to the imperial hamatas.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Architeuthis]

Oh yes, by imperial standards I did not mean segmentata specifically. I was just referring to the helmets and shields. Infact, two of my favorite legions are Legio V Macedonica and Legio XV Apollinaris. Seeing more similarly equipped legions would be quite amazing!

[Tar-Elendil]

Well will be incorporating the Legio V and XV's armour designs on other legions, but the Makedonia and Apollinaris will most likey be updated with Lorica Squamatas since they are Eastern Legions.

[Jean Lannes]

Converting all legionaries' armours from hamata to segmentata? Tha's a nonsense!!!
It's proved that the lorica segmentata had never been the widely standard imperial armour. And that's why the concept of "standardization" as in modern age was completly unknown in ancient age.
Romans have a general idea of a "panoplia", a general type of equipment for heavy infantry, but they didn't ever said "ok guys,all legion must have this shoes,this type of scutum" etc.
Exceptions and variants possibilities were common: roman chose their equipment depending of what type of enemies they have to face.
in particular:
Lorica hamata NEVER disappeared in roman legions.
Let's take a look, for examples at the Tropaeum Traiani and in the Asdamclisi Musueum: there you can also see legionaries of Trajan wearing lorica squamata!!!
Later, lorica hamata re-became more common in legions than the segmentatas after Septimius Severus.

"Shiny Lorica Segmentata": the so well kwnon bright steel color of these armours it's an historical mistake: did you figure a legionary that goes into the forest of Germania or in the desert shining like a star in his bright lorica? Romans were not stupid: they protect their armour brunishing them (expecially in north) or cover the steel with other proctections in hotter zone: this prevent them from rust and to be a shiny bastard in the middle of the battle
Another fact: roman legionaries in short pants: now, have you ever be in germania? even in summer? it's damend cold up there! And you pretent to go into the snow in short pants? Are you crazy? legions in nothern sectors use long pants as reported in many forts (regensburg or castra regina for example)!!!

now,scutum: all legions equipped with rectangulars scutum? not at all: when the authors of trajan's Column in Rome have to search for models they used the pretorian Guard stationed in the capital,but that does not mean that every roman legions was equipped with rectangular scutums. there was a great variety of them (mostly oval like in republican period).

helmets: you can become crazy in knowing how many type of helmets exist from the Imperial gallic to the italic!!!

Now, stop talking about "standard equipment": for Roman period is a nonsense!!

[Jean Lannes]

P.S. please, please, please: auto_replenishment for legions!!! It's a sadness to re-fill your ranks after battles bring supplies armies
for the game first cohorts are a unique unit and you can fill them with men from the other cohorts

[Tar-Elendil]

Converting all legionaries' armours from hamata to segmentata? Tha's a nonsense!!!
It's proved that the lorica segmentata had never been the widely standard imperial armour. And that's why the concept of "standardization" as in modern age was completly unknown in ancient age.
Romans have a general idea of a "panoplia", a general type of equipment for heavy infantry, but they didn't ever said "ok guys,all legion must have this shoes,this type of scutum" etc.
Exceptions and variants possibilities were common: roman chose their equipment depending of what type of enemies they have to face.
in particular:
Lorica hamata NEVER disappeared in roman legions.
Let's take a look, for examples at the Tropaeum Traiani and in the Asdamclisi Musueum: there you can also see legionaries of Trajan wearing lorica squamata!!!
Later, lorica hamata re-became more common in legions than the segmentatas after Septimius Severus.

"Shiny Lorica Segmentata": the so well kwnon bright steel color of these armours it's an historical mistake: did you figure a legionary that goes into the forest of Germania or in the desert shining like a star in his bright lorica? Romans were not stupid: they protect their armour brunishing them (expecially in north) or cover the steel with other proctections in hotter zone: this prevent them from rust and to be a shiny bastard in the middle of the battle
Another fact: roman legionaries in short pants: now, have you ever be in germania? even in summer? it's damend cold up there! And you pretent to go into the snow in short pants? Are you crazy? legions in nothern sectors use long pants as reported in many forts (regensburg or castra regina for example)!!!

now,scutum: all legions equipped with rectangulars scutum? not at all: when the authors of trajan's Column in Rome have to search for models they used the pretorian Guard stationed in the capital,but that does not mean that every roman legions was equipped with rectangular scutums. there was a great variety of them (mostly oval like in republican period).

helmets: you can become crazy in knowing how many type of helmets exist from the Imperial gallic to the italic!!!

Now, stop talking about "standard equipment": for Roman period is a nonsense!!

I agree with what you say whole-heartedly, but I don't believe anyone said that all of the hamata legions should be converted into segmentata. Simply an updating of the historically based Legions, such as the Rhine legions, to have the proper Cordbridge/Newstead Segmentatas which were prevalent throughout the first and second centuries AD.

[Sertorio]

Auto replenishment is a feature from Shogun2 which I don't know if can be incorporated in RTW. Units suffer losses during winter campaign in hostile regions and replenish in friendly ground not requiring to be retrained at settlements. I would be great to have both in RTW tough.

Converting all legionaries' armours from hamata to segmentata? Tha's a nonsense!!!
It's proved that the lorica segmentata had never been the widely standard imperial armour. And that's why the concept of "standardization" as in modern age was completly unknown in ancient age.
Romans have a general idea of a "panoplia", a general type of equipment for heavy infantry, but they didn't ever said "ok guys,all legion must have this shoes,this type of scutum" etc.
Exceptions and variants possibilities were common: roman chose their equipment depending of what type of enemies they have to face.
in particular:
Lorica hamata NEVER disappeared in roman legions.
Let's take a look, for examples at the Tropaeum Traiani and in the Asdamclisi Musueum: there you can also see legionaries of Trajan wearing lorica squamata!!!
Later, lorica hamata re-became more common in legions than the segmentatas after Septimius Severus.

Tone already covered this.

I too think it would be a mistake to get rid of all hamata on legions.
What we need are some legions with bracae (breeches), a few with squamata, maybe change a couple to segmentata, bit for the most part it's just about changing helmets and scuta.

[rory o'kane]

I'm all for updating the units, but leaving a few in Hamata isn't Legio XIV an "Imperial" legion with Hamata? So something along those lines would be cool - and one or two units with scale for variety would be cool!
A couple extra with the manicae would be cool as well!
Also, any chance you could update the Evocati to look a little more... "Imperial" as well?

[Tar-Elendil]

For all the changes I was refering too, I am speaking for the Year of Four Emperors (WIP) submod, that the team and I are working on. I am not sure how much, if anything at all the RSII team will incorporate into the actual mod. That all depends on many different things.

@ Rory, As for the Evocatii, in our submod at least, they are going to be removed simply because there are no actual records revealing the Evocatii still existed in the late-1st century AD. In fact, there are very few references at all to them, and certainly none which point to them as having been standing Legions of Evocatii. Most are simply refered to as a unit(s) attached to a particular legion.