Grandgnus Isengard 3.2 VH/VH Guide

[grandgnu]

NOTE: THIS IS FOR VANILLA CAMPAIGN AND DOESN'T TAKE ANY SUB-MODS INTO CONSIDERATION

A new power is rising, its victory.........is at hand!

So you want to prove Sauron wrong, show him that Isengard is not just a mere mockery of the greatness of Bara-Dur. Your road is not an easy one, as you mean to claim dominion over the forces of good and evil, and force them all to bow down before your power!

No, this is not an in-depth guide to hold your hand turn-by-turn. This guide aims to have you use Sarumans greatest strength to put yourself into a position to build the war machine you'll use to claim dominion over all.

As Saruman of the White Hand, you are not without your..........resources. Your greatest tool is your position of trust in both circles. All believe you to support them, rather than your own devices.



Your first move should be to take Grima, your diplomat, and hurry down to Gondor. When you initiate diplomatic relations with them, offer them your map as a gift, then after it's accepted immediately offer trade rights, then after that offer an alliance. This worked in my campaign, and hopefully will in yours.

Once this is done, Rohan will immediately cease-fire with you, since they are allies of Gondor as well. Now move Grima back into Rohan, gift them your map, offer trade rights and then ally.

Then move on to the High Elves and then Eriador, rinse and repeat.

But, but.......the lore!

Look man, I'm not here to argue timelines with you, I don't know all the exact dates that came into play in the book. What I do know is that even after Sarumon was revealed a traitor, he tried to manipulate Theoden and Gandalf for his own purpose. He's a smooth-talker, a master-manipulator, and that is how I recommend you play him.

But elves and dwarves would NEVER ally with orcs!

That's why it's called deception man, Saruman was playing both sides to his own ends. The good races didn't know he was corrupted and building an evil army of Uruk-hai. It's not like the Elves are sending UN inspectors to check out your nuclear facility here. You convince them you only have men in your garrisons and keep the orcs hidden until you're ready to reveal your treachery.

Your position puts you at risk of too many good factions, so manipulate the situation and keep them off your back. Now you can proceed forward, capturing the rebel settlements to your West and North to establish a foothold, build your economy without fear of attack and muster your forces to unleash where YOU wish.

Let the rest of the rabble weaken themselves while you grow in strength, directing their conflicts with other nations so that all your foes are weakened for it.

Perhaps when the time is right you can turn elf against man, because in the end everyone shall benefit from the leadership and order you bring to Middle Earth.

I leave you with one last tip: When in combat, try to position your archer and javelin units at multiple angles to the enemy. For instance, when assaulting a rebel village, I place archers to the right of an entrance, and snaga skirmishers to the left, with my main infantry in the center of this setup.

When enemy infantry sally out, you are forcing them to choose to reveal their flanks to someone. They get all confuzzled (yeah, I'm using that word, no, it's probably not real) and wind up taking fire on their flanks or back, which can negate shield advantages, increasing your kill rates and routing them faster.

The deck is stacked against you to start, but with the right skills you can be holding all the cards in the end.

Go forth now and conquer, chosen of Melkor!

[grandgnu]

With your borders safe from war, you can spend the early turns developing your economy and military infrastructure.

I kept enough troops on hand to capture the surrounding rebel settlements. You start with three territories, but after capturing North and South Tharbad just north of your starting position, Fangorn east of Isengard (yeah, Treebeard shows up, but just wanders around the forest and doesn't attack) and the three rebel settlements to your south and west (don't recall all their names) you will have gone from 3 measly territories to a respectable 9. You've tripled your holdings!

I then dismiss most troops except those that are covered by free upkeep, and adopt generals that have good starting respect or traits that boost their trade income or population growth/order so you can turn your little hovel-filled villages into stone-walled cities.

I generally start with food producing buildings first, because growth is pretty slow and we want to get as much of a headstart as possible. Then worry about markets and roads, then military infrastructure.

Take this time to also toss up watchtowers on your borders and in any interior blind spots. Watchtowers are preferred over spies because they don't have an upkeep cost.

I try to keep Saruman and Ugluk with fear ratings rather than respect, because you'll want to use them as generals given their special abilities.

I also turn all my taxes to low to promote growth in settlements (don't leave guys you want to be war generals in these settlements because they'll develop respect traits that take away their useful fear ratings you want on the battlefield)

You now have time to grow, unbothered by the turmoil around you. I haven't messed with it yet, but perhaps with enough cash you can pay someone good to war someone good. Maybe turn the dwarves against the High Elves or Eriador?

Perhaps you're afraid of the dwarves becoming too powerful (since we didn't ally them but are trying to encourage conflict between good races). Yes, they can be a powerhouse, but unlike the AI you aren't suffocated by auto-resolve. With the right troops, the dwarves can be beat. Use your snaga skirmishers to negate their armor advantage and you should have little trouble if they start encroaching on your lands.

EDIT: I believe, but I'm not 100% sure, that having over 50,000 in the bank will cause corruption traits to impact your generals. So consider using excess money to:

* bribe enemies into conflict
* buy settlements you want to expand into
* buy settlements and then gift them back to improve relations
* train some troops to reduce the money you're making per turn

[The Norseman]

Looks good! Though maybe you should add some pictures! +rep

[Trot]

Great guide +rep using your guide isengard has become my favorite faction I'm fielding three stacks and have half of Rohan let me add a tip wait to fight Rohan untilled an invasion is called on their capital join but use the increased move points to blitz their smaller settlements their forces are all defending their capital so you can expand with few casualties

[grandgnu]

I've actually turned Saruman into Middles Earth greatest real-estate developer. I make so much money I go and buy up lands from Rohan now, haven't had to fight for them yet. Just make sure you've got some units to move into the newly purchased settlement since it will need that to avoid rebellion.

Depending on the settlement size I've been able to purchase from Rohan for between 10-30K gold. Bearing in mind I'm making easily 7-8K/turn now, plus then you spend money in the new settlements building them up.

I could probably buy everyone out (except their capitals) eventually, but I do plan to go to war at some point. Perhaps against Mordor, orc vs orc. Time to show Sauron there is a new chosen of Melkor!

[grandgnu]

In my campaign I'm presently allied to all the good factions as Isengard (except the Silvan Elves, I skipped them, lol)

And I have good or better relations with all the evil factions. Even the Dark Lord of Mordor views me with favor, despite my never going on an invasion.

I have bought most of Rohan and am developing it while they are split up and fighting all the invasions that come their way.

Gondor is hard pressed by Harad and Mordor.

In the north and west, the elves, eriador and dwarves are doing well. The dwarves have essentially destroyed the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, who now have one settlement (Bree, which they capped in an invasion earlier)

Gundabad has maybe four territories left. Rhun is growing strong and has pressed Dale and the Silvan Elves.

I may sally forth and take Bree from the OOTMM, since I need it for my victory conditions. Also might purchase Michel Delving from Eriador/Arnor or might try to war them and see if I can create a divide with the dwarves and elves (perhaps someone will side with me in the conflict?)

The good races are strong in the northwest, the evil races are strong in the south and east.

I aim to destroy all and claim dominion over Middle Earth, the question is who I start with.

The dwarves growing power must be delayed in the least, perhaps I get an invasion called on them to put pressure on them and also slow the other evil races down because they'll be bogged in conflict in the mountains.

[Trot]

Great Idea i my campagn I just bought out the OOTMM and Gundabad

[grandgnu]

Note that in my campaign when I declared war on the Silvan Elves (the only good faction I hadn't allied) ALL of the other good factions immediately broke their alliances with me (despite my having an excellent reputation for being trustworthy, etc)

I'm not sure if it might play out differently if I could somehow push the Silvans to be the aggressors and declare. Perhaps the other races would look upon them unfavorably and keep their alliances with me.

Just make sure you're ready with a strong army when you march on the elves, cause even my best units get chewed up by theirs.

[Trot]

No war was declared by the free pepoles of eriodor on e and the dwarfs broke their alliance with e as did the silvian elves

[grandgnu]

In my current campaign as Isengard I'm allied with all the good factions and have bought up most of Rohan and was working on buying up Eriador.

Then I called an Invasion into Bree, and after Mordor capped it, I attacked, killing one of their Nazgul. Harad has taken half of Gondor and now has borders with me, and Rohan wound up attacking one of their stacks right near my city, so I joined the conflict.

I have made peace with Mordor for the time being, and am focused on pushing back Harad, who has become the other big player on the block. I've got a good three full stacks I can throw at them though, plus easily defensible positions (bridges, mountain pass, etc)

Feels good to get involved in some conflict now, lol

[Bowmaster]

This is starting to sound a bit like an AAR!

[grandgnu]

This is starting to sound a bit like an AAR!

AAR = Alternate Alternate reality?

[Bowmaster]

I don't know what AAR means, but I mean those TW stories at the AAR's and Fan Fiction's- page.

[The Norseman]

AAR means After Action Report.

[grandgnu]

I'm messing around with a new campaign after rebuilding my PC with new hard drives. This time I...

1. Get allied with Gondor
2. Don't ally with the other good factions, but do ally with both Orc factions north of me
3. Declare war with Eriador between turns 40-50

My belief is that Eriador, in order to turn into Arnor, must ally with Gondor. But if I'm allied with Gondor and at war with Eriador, then I think they can't ally with Gondor to complete their transition (I also took Amon Sul as well)

In the above I actually had the Elves first declare war on me by blockading one of my ports, then the very next turn they offered a ceasefire.

With Eriador they're trying to get me to agree to a ceasefire but I'm not accepting it. Going to keep the pressure up to try and keep my Orc allies in the game, since in the past they get trounced by the trifecta of Dwarves/Elves/Eriador (but mostly dwarves)

[Alex-ander]

Interesting idea getting an alliance with Gondor and Rohan. I was wondering what happens if you go to war with one of the other good factions. Does Gondor /Rohan react or does you alliance with them continue.

[grandgnu]

Interesting idea getting an alliance with Gondor and Rohan. I was wondering what happens if you go to war with one of the other good factions. Does Gondor /Rohan react or does you alliance with them continue.

In my experience only if they are allied with that faction do they break your alliance. Also, you'll want to try and steer invasions away from Gondor if you're allied to other evil factions, otherwise you'll be forced to break with one of them.

In a new campaign I've got Eriador down to just Longbottom, and wasn't able to convince Sauron to invade anyone else so Minis Tirith just got targeted, so had to break my alliance with them.

Happened fairly recently and I hadn't been allied to Rohan, just Gondor. Don't know if Rohan will start turning their sites to me, we've been peaceful for 130+ turns and have trade rights, but I have fought with the High Elves a small bit and Eriador/Arnor significantly.

[Jojobobo]

Thanks very much for this guide, I achieved my first VH/VH TA:TW victory with it!


I was curious how you managed to secure an alliance with Gondor without giving them money or had you expanded your territory before that point so your map information was worth something to them? For me what I had to do was not buy anything for the first 6 turns until you can reach Gondor and then I had to buy the alliance with 15000 gold (which even with you first settlements in Isengard is fine), and by that point Rohan looked ready to lynch me (they had troops on my land) but from that point it was plain sailing as I got a ceasefire with Rohan in the next turn using 5000 gold like you said.


From there I never went to war with a single faction except when I could avoid it - just buy whatever provinces you want and get ready to garrison them with a single unit (made much easier if you exchange military access for military access with factions you want to buy off to stop allied factions getting upset that there moving troops around on your land - which if it's a deal they don't want to do you can again incentivise with money).


For invasions - never join them. It's much easier to let an evil faction take the settlement and then buy it off them - plus because you're spreading the good news of Melkor in so many settlements I found that the Dark Lord was never upset with me for not going on them. In fact you can use invasions very much to your advantage - for example as Bree was one of the settlements you need to when I made the Dark Lord call an invasion on it (which I myself didn't join) thereby maintaining my alliance with Arnor and then I just bought it off Mordor when they conquered it - I find that successful invasion settlements usually come cheaper than most as the evil factions don't seem to like keeping towns so far away from there other boarders.


For really big cities like Imladris what I did was exchange it for 100000 gold and several little settlements like Cold Fells, Fangorn and Limlit Fort (any "demanding" diplomatic agreement often gets agreed to if you're using a full influence diplomat and talking with allies even on VH), by doing this you can buy back the little settlements much easier in subsequent turns (for about 15000-20000 apiece for villages/towns). It's best to barter for big cities early as it seems like the determining factors as to what sort of price you can get them for are the size of the settlement itself and how many settlements that faction owns.


To kill off Rohan (as no faction will get rid of it's last few cities no matter what the price and I couldn't bribe them either) what can do is (after cancelling your alliance) is make sure you have diplomats outside cities of allied factions to Rohan and one outside one of Rohan's other cities too. Then take their city (using a night fighting general - common as muck to Isengard - in conjuction with a catapult allows you to take there city in a single turn and not worry about armies outside of the settlements giving support), use your diplomat to call a ceasefire (and an alliance if you want it) at another city of their's using lots of money and then re-ally yourself with all those factions that broke the faith with you (again using money). Rinse and repeat - though you'll notice if you kill Rohan you want be able to re-ally yourslef to factions that were allied to Rohan so leave their last city to when you actually want victory.


Of course this plan requires lots of money (~ a few 100000s) which does make your general disloyal and corrupt - but who cares! In the end I was able to make around 30000 was producing at over 40 settlements constantly so the money just piles up unless you have an army to eat it up. I guess as you only have very few battles this strategy probably isn't for everyone but I was just pleased to score a VH/VH victory!


One thing I will say (more of a general comment than in regards to this particular strategy is never break the faith with the Dark Lord (I forgot that my ringbearer got stopped outside an elven settlement and so didn't get the ring back to Sauron on time). I couldn't find a way to stop invasions to my settlements or regain faith with Sauron (which wasn't so much of a problem as I could just buy invaded settlements back and call for a ceasefire with money) but it did slow my progress somewhat and it isn't good if you did want to eliminate all good factions before starting on the bad if you want to take the entire map.


So yeah, thanks a lot for the excellent guide grandgnu - it's the only guide so far I've had any success with.

[grandgnu]

Thanks very much for this guide, I achieved my first VH/VH TA:TW victory with it!


I was curious how you managed to secure an alliance with Gondor without giving them money or had you expanded your territory before that point so your map information was worth something to them?

Nope, never gave them a penny. What I did was:

Turn 1: Move Grima (diplomat) for Gondor immediately.

Once he makes contact:

- gift them your map
- offer trade agreement
- offer alliance

Generally I do them as separate steps, although there was one time where the trade agreement worked but the alliance didn't. So instead I had to reload my save and offer them the trade and alliance in the same offer.

You're able to do this all on your initial contact with Gondor (i.e. gift the map, then after that is received, select to perform the trade agreement and alliance)

I hadn't been pumping armies too much or expanded much at that point, as it's very early and I'm generally focused on growing my economy since I expect to not have to fight off Rohan stack spam once I get my ceasefire, so I can focus on infrastructure/economy

And I'm glad it helped!

[Jojobobo]

I did try that but with the inital poor relations you have with the good factions on VH stopped it from working, and because I only had the initial 3 settlements (I was still in the process of sieging out or trying to take surrounding rebel settlements) at that point the trade agreement was only "barely accepted" and brought the relations back down to poor after they were so-so from the gifted map information. I guess it's one of those things that is probably a bit chancy - perhaps if I had left out the map information they'd have took the alliance without any money - but using gold will certainly seal the deal anyway.