The Three Spears of the Unsullied - speculation and lore pondering

[Berengar]

Just in case they are ever created as units for an emergent Targaryen invasion... or even as sellswords.

What do you think the three spears, with which the Unsullied are known to have trained, actually are? I can't recall ol' Gurmy ever actually specifying.

The way the Unsullied's fighting style is described leads me to believe that their principle function is to act as a kind of hoplite phalanx, massed in close ranks, forming a wall of spears and shields that is all but impenetrable to both cavalry and infantry and reasonably well protected by their shields from most types of skirmishers. They would have the discipline and stamina to outlast their opponents, blunting any enemy attack and doing most of their killing in looser formation once the enemy routs. The kind of formation you would only really want to deal with by catapult, dragon, or charge to the rear.

So that's one spear. A long shafted spear, light enough to be thrust with one strong arm, long enough to be used over at least two ranks.

But what are the other two? The candidates that come to mind are pikes, javelins, short stabbing spears, or perhaps a different kind of polearm.

Pikes would suit their drill and training well enough, if they could rely on sufficient skirmisher screens to risk foregoing (or just reducing the size of) their shields. This would require a change in their basic equipment, however, which is perhaps more worth mentioning by GRRM. Is there any evidence in the lore that they ever do this?

Javelins would also fit their tactics well. They could throw them before the front lines engage just as the Romans did, dealing a serious blow to enemy cohesion, numbers and morale before the work of stabbing begins. I don't believe they are ever mentioned, but would fit perfectly.

Short stabbing spears. These would be more useful in single combat or if the formation loosens up for pursuit or in rough/urban terrain. For example, once the initial enemy assault is blunted, the Unsullied could switch to these to turn rout into massacre, stabbing and slashing with the tip in more individual encounters, while still protected by their usual shield. Fits well, but again not mentioned as far as I know. I could certainly see this as a prefered weapon of the summer islanders, which the Unsullied would therefore now about. THen again I would expect them to carry daggers or short swords as secondary weapons anyway, so the short spear is not necessarily needed.

Finally, another type of polearm. Most of the opponents you would expect the Unsullied to face do not wear armour so heavy they would need one, but perhaps GRRM's account is as cursory when it comes to the heavy armour of Essos as Europe's collective imagination when considering the heavier armours of the Middle East. It is conceivable that in order to fight better armoured enemies (the Legions of New Ghis perhaps, sellswords who were once knights in Westeros, or simply the personal guard of a Khal who values cataphracts), the Unsullied would drill in the use of some type of halberd. Or they may have had trainers from the Jade Sea, using something like a naginata. The heavier, more versatile head of such a weapon would be a reason not to use it with a shield, of course. But as a tactical option, it makes sense.

I personally lean towards the long spear, the javelin, and the polearm for special occasions. What do you think? What are the three spears?

[Stannis Baratheon]

I'd say they are somewhat like late Roman legionaries-sword, anti-cavalry spear(3 m), heavy javelin, and something late Romans didn't have-a pike.
They would use shortsword in infantry engagements, probably fighting like classical(before they adopted spatha) legionaries, using the shield to enter inside their opponent's weapon range and kill him with thrust in vitals.
Spear would be used by front ranks in case of cavalry charge or if melee with them would be expected. This was very probably their main weapon at battle of Qohor.
They would probably always carry a javelin or two, to thin the enemy ranks or blunt their charge.
Pike would be used when they're not fighting alone, when they have someone to guard their flanks. All other weapons above are more or less self-depended and Unsullied would have no trouble using them without support of anyone else. But if a sufficient force covers their flanks-they could very probably use their pikes to devastating effect, pike being a weapon where discipline and holding formation are most important(more than in sword-shield engagements, anyway). Of course if they fight Westerosi knights pike would probably always be at the ready.
So they're a combination of Roman legionaries and Macedonian phalanx, with immunity to pain and practically unroutable. No wonder they're considered the best soldiers in the world!

[Brenden_Tully]

no routing! damn they will be hard to beat.

[Mhaedros]

Two different types of weapons are the most due to engine limitations, but there is a way to lock their morale, which means they can't rout

[Stannis Baratheon]

The way to implement them in-game would be to give them sword, shield, javelin and anti-cavalry bonus, and to make another unit "Unsullied Phalanx". Ofc double hitpoints and morale value of 50 too.

[Berengar]

The lore is quite clear on their resistance to fear and pain. They could still rout in game terms, although not easily, but we would interpret it as a tactical retreat once beaten down to a fraction of their strength.

The mystery in the books really is which three spears they are trained with. Their vendor is quite specific on the number, but not on the type. I think we can be surest of long spear and javelin. I think the short spear is least likely. It's still a toss up between polearm and pike for me and while a polearm is versatile @Stannis' argument in favour of the pike on the battlefield is certainly strong. Hopefully GRRM will provide an insightful battle scene one day, but military science is not his strongest point...

The way to implement them in-game would be to give them sword, shield, javelin and anti-cavalry bonus, and to make another unit "Unsullied Phalanx". Ofc double hitpoints and morale value of 50 too.

Ingame, I would split them into two distinct units: spearmean with javelins to be thrown before the charge, and another unit of armoured pikemen or halberdiers, depending on which we thought was the most likely interpretation.

I'm not quite so sure about the swords, it makes sense that they have them, but do not receive mention, the "three spears" do. I would see a sword as backup only, although the use you describe does make sense.

As for morale, the figure 50 stands out a bit, but morale lock can be used.

[Mhaedros]

Why morale value 50? Just add lock_morale at the end of the morale entry, and they'll never rout

[Stannis Baratheon]

Didn't know for that possibility! Cool!
Also, another unit of Unsullied could be made, called "Unsullied Levies" like the one used at second battle of Astapor. They would be much cheaper and recruited only in 1 turn(or even 0) but would be much weaker and could rout(as we've seen their strength is somewhere between levy slave soldiers and Ghiscari legionaries)

[Lordinquisitor]

Talking about in game stuff which will probably never make it ingame unless someone decides to make a submod?
Unsullied won`t be included because slavery is outlawed by gods and men in westeros and no fool would recruit them. (Also, it`s a very long way from astapor to westeros.)

I Actually have drawn up some drafted rosters for the eastern factions, for fun, and came up with 4 distinct Unsullied units.

Unsullied
Spear + Shield, locked morale, 2 hitpoints

Unsullied long spears
Long spears (Pikes)

Unsullied heavy infantry
Swords, shield and heavier armor. An event could occur for the targs in which they could decide to armor some of the unsullied in heavy armor. If accepted a few units of them (2-3) would spawn, and some gold would have to be paid.

City guard of Qohor
Unsullied serving as the cityguard of qohor, equipped with spears (ornamented with hair braids!) and good armor.

The catch for all this units would be: No new ones could be recruited since certain events befell astapor. If the correct factions (One of the slaver cities) conquers astapor new ones could be trained, but this would take years.

[Berengar]

@Lord Hm, it seems you two of you would assume that the Unsullied lean towards pikes than towards polearms. You're almost winning me over to that interpretation of the three spears.

In game, I wouldn't really expect to see them anyway unless Dany come knocking. The non-recruitment option would certainly make sense in that case... although I'm not sure how long a turn is supposed to be. I'm sure given ten to twenty years some enterprising Unsullied... er, perhaps make that some Unsullied who has been so ordered... might start up the training regime on distant shores. But then they might not be Unsullied anymore, just Targaryen Longspear Guardsmen or somesuch. There is always a niche for solid thorakitai type units wielding spear and javelins on the flanks, even if they only have 1hp per head.

[Stannis Baratheon]

Regarding polearms, they somehow don't fit into Essos. Essos warfare is very similar to our antiquy warfare, and there hadn't been many polearms in that period(falx). As you said, there isn't much heavy armour in Essos, (Drogo didn't use armour, i fear Dothraki don't use it at all)even Ghiscari legionaries probably don't have the armour comparable to Westerosi knights, and the purpose of typical polearm(halberd), was, after all, to effectively dismount and kill a knight. While long spear/pike was very common and effective weapon in that period, so i assume that Unsullied would also use it.
I found a quote in ASOS: "Every day they train from dawn to dusk, until they have mastered the shortsword, the shield, and the three spears."
But few pages further, this confused me:
(Dany)"And their gear?"
"Sword, shield, spear, and quilted tunic are included" said Kraznys. "And the spiked caps, to be sure. They will wear such armor as you wish, but you must provide it."
Why spear, and not spears?

@LordInquisitor I've made 7-8 Essos units in Barbarian Invasion some time ago, the stats worked nicely, but their skins and unit cards were horrible so i gave up. If anyone ever makes Essos submod, i'll be glad to help in whichever way i can. The only thing in Essos that is really interesting is their military(their "culture"? Not so much.).
Hopefully we will find new stuff in World of Ice and Fire once it comes out.

[Lordinquisitor]

Well, they train in the art of the three spears- And i assume those are regular spear, pike and javelin. That doesn`t mean that they have to sell them with the three spears. Just with the armor. I guess they also know how to fight in heavy armor but selling it with them would reduce their profits/make the unsullied too expensive.

For the reasons stated by you, stannis, i also think that a polearm is unlikely. And a polearm would be called a polearm anyway and not a spear.

[Berengar]

I found a quote in ASOS: "Every day they train from dawn to dusk, until they have mastered the shortsword, the shield, and the three spears."
But few pages further, this confused me:
(Dany)"And their gear?"
"Sword, shield, spear, and quilted tunic are included" said Kraznys. "And the spiked caps, to be sure. They will wear such armor as you wish, but you must provide it."
Why spear, and not spears?

[...]

Hopefully we will find new stuff in World of Ice and Fire once it comes out.

Godsdamit, SB, you are so very, very right, I forgot that the short sword was there in black and white. I remember that it was back then that the issue of how many spears started to bug me. You again argue soundly. It probably is longspear / javelin / pike. Shortswords are good for assaults and blood work, although the Unsullied's famed defensive battlefield feats would owe more to spear than blade because otherwise they might lose some of their formation benefits.

Still, as I hinted, although GRRM's views are obviously canonical, he may all too well have been influenced by the mistaken Western tradition holding that Eastern armours were always lighter when in fact they had their own complex heavy armours. Even antique Parthian (~Dothraki?) cataphracts outarmoured anything seen in Western Europe until at least the 13th century, even if the majority of their armies was composed of light horse archers.

Having said that, I'd be more comfortable facing a cataphract from behind a pikewall. Just so long as I wasn't on my own.

[Stannis Baratheon]

Yes, it could be. Dothraki lack any armour, slave soldier armies are laughable, the Ghiscari are citizen force and of other we know too little. Even Unsullied lack armour. The only proffesional force seems to be Golden Company, majority of which is Westerosi.
We haven't seen any nation in world of Ice and Fire that would remind of such eastern cultures(Parthians, Sassanids, Kwarezimians, Mongols). Dothraki to me seem most similar to Avars, or Pechenegs.
And i agree, Parthians, Sassanids and Byzantine Empire fielded superior armies to anything Europe could produce untill plate armour.

[Berengar]

I think maybe GRRM just doesn't know about cataphracts. The Dothraki horde is far too uniformly equipped for a plausible social group, really. When it comes to interpreting "lore" I read him like I would a historical source rather than a holy book... someone with notions and blindspots of his own. Now if only we had some solid archaeological evidence...

... now where was Lara's phone number?

Btw Stannis, what happened to the shellfish?

[Stannis Baratheon]

It was Allmighty King Lobster, the only GOT quote worthy of my name!
Of course, the GRRM can be wrong. It seems that both Dothraki and pit fighters disdain armour, but this is probably prejudice about "barbarian" peoples. However i found it a bit off for GRRM not to have heard of cataphracts-the slaver army besieging Mereen is quite diverse: beside slave soldiers, there are free companies(condottieri), Ghiscari legionaries(pre-Marian Roman), Tolosi slingers(Balearic), and war elephants. He must have at least heard of catapharacts who were fielded by so many nations.
There are some things that do not belong in antiquy army that Ghis fields, such as mass use of crossbows and trebuchets, but this could very well be intentional.
GRRM, although certainly not a military expert,(i still can't understand how could Winterfell contain so tiny population and field so little troops, this is quite probably a mistake) had surely read some amount of history(he even recommends some books in FAQ of his webpage) and to focus exclusively on Western European history and never reads about anything else in early/middle ages, that's hard to believe, at least to me.
Regarding Dothraki, perhaps he really just thought: "Now is the time to create some uncultured, savage nation who will prowl the steppes. Let's take the Mongols, remove their armour, give them bigger emphasis on swords, change khan to khal... and, well, that's it!"

[Berengar]

I didn't mean to denigrate him, he probably has heard of them... I'm quite confused about all kinds of things in his world myself as you can (repeatedly) tell, but in that last bit I think you may have just summed it up perfectly. In a nutty flavoured lobster shell of course.

[Stannis Baratheon]

Hahaha, what a great metaphor! I agree, he can be confusing, such as why he has knights fighting in heavy plates, even armoured horses, but the infantry is still of a 11-12th century at best, they conscript raw peasantry(the Freys on their trip to North actually took peasants armed with pitchforks and scythes) there is barely any mention of halberds, and even chain-mail isn't very common among infantry.
Also in "official suggestion thread" lordinquisitor noticed, the Dothraki simply do not have enough wealth, metal and smiths who would produce cataphracts, when huge and wealthy states could afford only a small elite force.
Also your avatar is one of the best i've seen!

[Mr.Lannister]

I think when they mention "Three spears" Is just a way to say that they have trained with a spear,sword and shield.

[Lordinquisitor]

As to why winterfell could field so few troops:

First, the north is quite big but sparsely populated. Even then Robb should have been able to field more troops. Why didn`t he?

Most of the people are living in the country side, as farmers and hunters etc. Only during winter do most of them abandon their fields and move into the larger cities of the north.

Now, the northern country is vast and the terrain quite rugged- Mountains, hills, thick forests.. When Robb marshalled his banners many flocked to his cause- But the summons quite likely wouldn`t have reached all parts of the north yet, only those lands that are next to a castle and it`s ravens and maesters.

Since at that point time was an issue he couldn`t delay too long and had to move, leaving many potential soldiers back in the north. Just think about those mountain clansmen, for example.

The same thing happened all over westeros. Remember when brienne was travelling with septon meribald? One day away from the larger cities there were people living in the bogs who weren`t affected by the war.

//Cataphracts

As i see it- There just isn`t any need for them, at all, in the east. Some cities just use their plentiful slaves as soldiers, others their navy (Braavos), and others mostly hire sellswords. The Dothraki? Savages armored in nothing- And they can be paid. In addition iron as a metal for armor isn`t widespread in the far east.

Perhaps Quarth has some heavily armored units. Though, heavily armored would still mean bronze. I recall that the camelry honorguard wore quite the ornamented armor made from copper/bronze scales and wearing tusks on their helmet.