Gripes with the Peter Jackson LotR and Hobbit films

[Ngugi]

Agree, that's what I highly admire the Noldor for, and whomever joined their side; they are at war with a Valar, someone they can not defeat, yet they do not bow and surrender but is ready to take the fight to him and his hordes and rather fall than give up.

'Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!'
(...)
'We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we will keep. We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda.'
- words of Fëanor [whom I don't like, mind you, hehe] in Silmarillion; Of the Flight of the Noldor]

So utterly far away from a tree hugging poet of general Elf-perception, but from same love to the world; a steel boot in the face of any enemy

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Agree, that's what I highly admire the Noldor for, and whomever joined their side; they are at war with a Valar, someone they can not defeat, yet they do not bow and surrender but is ready to take the fight to him and his hordes and rather fall than give up.

So utterly far away from a tree hugging poet of general Elf-perception, but from same love to the world; a steel boot in the face of any enemy

The Noldor unlike other Elves [I'm looking at you Vanyar and Finarfin] chose to fight, and carried on in the fight against Morgoth however hopeless it seemed [And was.] one has to admire them for their valour and steadfastness.

[Ngugi]

Guess you're considering Finarfin, not Fingolfin But Finarfin and those who did like him was akin in bravery, just not accepting the evil deeds and proudfilled folly of Fëanor and in all honesty anybody who followed him showed;

With Fingolfin went Finarfin also and for like reasons; but most loath was he to depart. And of all the Noldor in Valinor, who were grown now to a great people, but one tithe refused to take the road: some for the love that they bore to the Valar (and to Aulë not least), some for the love of Tirion and the many things that they had made; none for fear of peril by the way.
(...)
But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor.
- Silmarillion; Of the Flight of the Noldor

But Aredhel, having sought in vain for her companions, rode on, for she was fearless and hardy of heart, as were all the children of Finwë;
- Silmarillion; Of Maeglin

Neither do I claim Vanyar should be looked less upon in any way.To begin with I simply think they had the wisdom to uphold sense in dire times and had another concept of whats the right thing to do in the manner of the Valar;

But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.
- Silmarillion; Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor (and Morgoth and his result is one big rebellion)

Becasue when it was time they mustered and went into a 48 yar long war to overthrow Morgoth and all his uncountable arimes by free will, since Valar may not force them, to liberate a part of the world they do not live in and intend not to stay in, for two houses of Elves who are not their own and Men they never met, against a hated foe but still a foe who doubtfully could ever threatened Aman etc.
The only ones I get irritated on in such a perspective is the Falmari, the Teleri of Aman, who only sailed the troops across the sea from the West but did not put their feet in ME again due to the kinslaying. I mean, what is wrong with you people? Your own kin, all the Teleri left in ME is crushed and enslaved and you will let anger at the remaining scraps of Noldor allow you to just sit by? Jerks...

EIiher way I do think Silmarillion would make a good series or a series of films, but I actually would be more positive to a animated version than a real pictures, since I think reality would call for to many restrictions weither it be lenght, budget or effects etc.

[Tokugawa77]

I personally don't have a problem with elves at Helm's Deep. Yes, it was out of place and arguably the most awkward part of any of the films, but I see why it was done. Had the elves not arrived, we would never have seen any elven force actualy fighting in any of the films. In the book, the elves actually fended off a second army of orcs and easterlings that set out from the Black Gates, and evicted Sauron's forces from Dol Goldur. Since this obviously cannot be shown in the films, the only way to give the impression that the elves actually helped to fight the war was to insert them in one of the two set piece battles; Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith, neither of which is especially ideal. You see, sometimes small alterations to details imparts an impression more faithful to the truth. I beleive that the decision fo put in the elves at Helm's deep was a reasonable one.

[avenging angel]

Finarfin was just smart. He knew what was gonna happen. I know you say teh noldor were brave fighting against melkor despite the odds, and i agree but it was for the wrong reasons. Fëanor was too prideful and angry at the theft of his creations and teh death of his father, and was able to manipulate the rest of the noldor in following him. His greatest crime as well as teh kingslaying was his betrayal of the host fingolfin who had to cross teh frozen wastes of the north and lost many innocent noldor lives.
Lets be honest. Feanor wasnt a great leader. Hell he even accidently killed one of his sons by burning the boats. He couldve at least sent the boats back for fingolfins lot but his pride and jealously wouldnt let him. On top of that, he died in his first battle... Way to go dude.. You condemn your people to a long period of hardship and eventual decline and you die early on and miss it. Not the greatest traits for a leader...

[Tokugawa77]

And why did we need to be shown Elves fighting?

Because it was a very large part of the war against Sauron, of which we are shown very little (only the southern Kingdoms are shown to be fighting in the films). Put that on top of omitting the scouring of the shire and any "layman" watching the films would be under the impression that only Gondor and Rohan did any fighting against Mordor.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Then they should have shown an army of Dwarves at helm's deep too.

Instead, and way more realistically, they could have shown Gandalf talking about the contribution of Elves, Dwarves and Dalesmen to the war in the end of the movie.

[Beregond]

yep, and add flashbacks. Everybody loves flashbacks

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Because it was a very large part of the war against Sauron, of which we are shown very little (only the southern Kingdoms are shown to be fighting in the films). Put that on top of omitting the scouring of the shire and any "layman" watching the films would be under the impression that only Gondor and Rohan did any fighting against Mordor.

But one of the points of the books is Men won't be rescued by the Elves[Which also have their hands full] or the Valar. [Which have adopted a mostly hands off stance since Numenor] And if we really needed to be shown Elves fighting, they shouldn't have cut the Grey Company [Elladan and Elrohir] Jackson wrote himself into a corner there, really.

Finarfin was just smart. He knew what was gonna happen. I know you say teh noldor were brave fighting against melkor despite the odds, and i agree but it was for the wrong reasons. Fëanor was too prideful and angry at the theft of his creations and teh death of his father, and was able to manipulate the rest of the noldor in following him. His greatest crime as well as teh kingslaying was his betrayal of the host fingolfin who had to cross teh frozen wastes of the north and lost many innocent noldor lives.
Lets be honest. Feanor wasnt a great leader. Hell he even accidently killed one of his sons by burning the boats. He couldve at least sent the boats back for fingolfins lot but his pride and jealously wouldnt let him. On top of that, he died in his first battle... Way to go dude.. You condemn your people to a long period of hardship and eventual decline and you die early on and miss it. Not the greatest traits for a leader...

It may have been the smart thing to do, but while his brothers,children and kinsmen were dying in droves he was frolicking in Aman.

PS: Don't use ''teh" instead of ''the" in your posts, it makes you sound ridiculous.

And Ngugi I dislike the Vanyar because of their ''lawfulness" and ''perfection" not because they didn't march off to a war they had no business in.You are also right there about my minor slip concerning the deeds of Nolofinwe[Fingolfin]

[conon394]

So utterly far away from a tree hugging poet of general Elf-perception, but from same love to the world; a steel boot in the face of any enemy

The funny thing is that is why the arrival of Vanyar always seemed a bit underwhelming. I mean they really are hippy elves who just seem to sit around basking in the glow of the Valar - did they do anything? accomplish anything? I can just see Finarfin doing a face-palm as one of the Vanyar is all exited but - holding his sword backward - is complaining the sword thing does not seem to work because it hurts hand his and won't fit into the sheath.

In general considering the piss poor job the Valar do at management and security, being fair and noble and singing songs sounds good, but I think Noldor were right smart and armed to the teeth is a better option.

Becasue when it was time they mustered and went into a 48 yar long war to overthrow Morgoth and all his uncountable arimes by free will, since Valar may not force them, to liberate a part of the world they do not live in and intend not to stay in, for two houses of Elves who are not their own and Men they never met, against a hated foe but still a foe who doubtfully could ever threatened Aman etc.

But that time only came by the actions of the Noldor and Edain and Dwarves in ME. If not fighting them with all his strength and dissipating it, Morgoth would have been free to crush the Dwarves, fully enslave men, the Valar were willing to sit on there hands and let the Second kindred be Morgoths little consolation prize forever. Considering the Host of Numenor was beyond conventional opposition when it landed in Valinor, the Valar's strategy was rather like letting somebody get Asia in RISK because you got Australia blocked off. It works for a few turns but never wins. Sure maybe the Valar could have attacked and destroyed ME completely and figure 'Eru would sort out his own', but that would free Morgoth's power to come back to him and thus back to square one where he can match all the rest together.

for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel

Although I think once authority is shown to repeatedly stupid, blundering, obtuse, selfish, and generally ineffective in most cases I think it's credibility as 'Authority' is limited. Not only that consider the Valar were in fact tight lipped - why do the Noldor not the full story of the early wars with Morgoth? I am thinking some beings were using "Top Secret' to hide the scale of the own incompetence. Or why not tell the Noldor right out that Morgoth having made Arda his the Valar can not easily attack him in ME anymore and they fear for the Second Children (and presumably Dwarves and the residual Elves) since they do not anyway to act in person that is not essentially Global Thermal Nuclear War. Feanor might not have cared but even his sons and Galadriel would likely have been reasonable.

[Ngugi]

I presume Valar would not let Vanyar go to ME fully unprepeared.
They had 3 years to drill from Eärendil came to Aman till the Host of the West entered ME, possibly trained by Eonwë and Oromë themselves.
Further only swords ought to been a news for them to use, while possibly only those who hunted with Oromë had the other gear in fresh memory:

§ 95 Against the words 'Melkor spoke to the Eldar concerning weapons, which they had not before posessed or known' my father wrote on the typescript: 'No! They must have had weapons on the Great Journey. ' Cf. the passage in QS on this subject (footnote to §49): 'The Elves had before posessed only weapons of the chase, spears and bows and arrows.'
- HoME X, The Annals of Aman; Commentary on the fourth section of the Annals of Aman

Furthermore we are never told that while Noldor got themselves swords in Aman that they to any greater degree trained with them.
They hid their arms from eachother and the Valar, so training must been suffering, though they had 1000 years of the Sun to do so so it might been decent enough. Still the descriptions of Noldors return and their initial battle do not sound to me as an attempt to show any skillful warefare but rather something in line with Light-boosted hack-n-slash with superior gear from Noldors part.

...and there on the grey fields of Mithrim was fought the Second Battle in the Wars of Beleriand. Dagor-nuin-Giliath it is named, the Battle-under-Stars, for the Moon had not yet risen; and it is renowned in song. The Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible. The Orcs fled before them...
- Silmarillion; Of the Return of the Noldor

Strong and fair were they yet, for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes; swift they were, and deadly in wrath, and long and terrible were their swords. The Orcs fled before them...
- HoME XI, The Grey Annals; 1497

Considering Vanyar will be fresh to ME with the same Aman-boost (as it has to mean more than the Trees), with good equipment as Valar knew this moment would come and possibly even had Finarfin's men make them [keep the Noldor busy; always a good politic ] and apperently filled with motivation I do not doubt their capacity - possibly beside in the beginning of the War concerning swords but by time some ought to have been great with such as well.
Rather to me Vanyar's motivation makes them a bit more scary than Noldor (in mentality if not in skill or action), as Noldor is passionate while Vanyar to me seems more driven by some kind of conviction, like religious fanatics out on a crusade, jihad etc.

But that time only came by the actions of the Noldor and Edain and Dwarves in ME. If not fighting them with all his strength and dissipating it, Morgoth would have been free to crush the Dwarves, fully enslave men, the Valar were willing to sit on there hands and let the Second kindred be Morgoths little consolation prize forever. Considering the Host of Numenor was beyond conventional opposition when it landed in Valinor, the Valar's strategy was rather like letting somebody get Asia in RISK because you got Australia blocked off. It works for a few turns but never wins. Sure maybe the Valar could have attacked and destroyed ME completely and figure 'Eru would sort out his own', but that would free Morgoth's power to come back to him and thus back to square one where he can match all the rest together.

Although I think once authority is shown to repeatedly stupid, blundering, obtuse, selfish, and generally ineffective in most cases I think it's credibility as 'Authority' is limited. Not only that consider the Valar were in fact tight lipped - why do the Noldor not the full story of the early wars with Morgoth? I am thinking some beings were using "Top Secret' to hide the scale of the own incompetence. Or why not tell the Noldor right out that Morgoth having made Arda his the Valar can not easily attack him in ME anymore and they fear for the Second Children (and presumably Dwarves and the residual Elves) since they do not anyway to act in person that is not essentially Global Thermal Nuclear War. Feanor might not have cared but even his sons and Galadriel would likely have been reasonable.

I'm not discussing Valar, whatever they did vs Morgoth And while Tolkien concur the strategy of the Valar was faulty the revolt of Noldor to me seems the reason why Valar trough the ban did not went over to ME directly to get Morgoth which they could had otherwise. Which is also behaving jackass ofc, but in the end I think we have to remember that this is necessary in the story due to fate and in reality for Tolkien to create the kind of story he wanted.

But to answer a question they did tell Noldor it was folly [a bit late indeed, though they should had understood it form the beginning] but nobody took it to heart:

But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'
But Fëanor laughed, and spoke not to the herald, but to the Noldor, saying:
(...)
In that hour the voice of Fëanor grew so great and so potent that even the herald of the Valar bowed before him as one full-answered, and departed; and the Noldor were over-ruled.
- SIlmarillion;

[Mhaedros]

Guys this isn't the Tolkien General Discussion. If you want to keep up the Vanyar discussion, please move it there

[avenging angel]

"PS: Don't use ''teh" instead of ''the" in your posts, it makes you sound ridiculous." - Feanaro Curufinwe

Can i point out two things please. The first is im dyslexic, and "the" always escapes me from time to time without me realising it. Secondly, when i made my post, it was 2 in teh morning for me, and i wasnt feeling that great to begin with as i havent been well for a long time, hence my long absence till recently from these forums so please cut me some slack

Theres a lot with these film we can agree that went wrong. Things that PJ shouldve added, like the grey company. I only hope PJ has learned from his mistakes so they aint reapeated in the hobbit. I will say this. Its funny how PJ is as we all know, a elf fanboy, yet left out gilgalad and restricted cirdan to a cameo role, which most people probably though WTF . TWO of the most important elves in LOTR.

[StealthFox]

Actually, Gil-Galad got a cameo role too in the first few minutes of FotR. He is seen with his famous spear, Aeglos and even stabs and orc with it. lol Admittedly though, he's on screen for just a few seconds.

[Mhaedros]

It's quite odd, I've seen the movies a couple of times now, and yet I've never seen that scene with Gil-Galad (yes, I've got the extended version)

[StealthFox]

It's just a few seconds. Look here about 2:32:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There was originally planned to be more with Gil-Galad including his death via Sauron lifting him up and burning him. That's why in the movie Sauron is going to grab Isildur to the same when Isildur cuts his finger off.

Mark Ferguson talking about Gil-Galad's death scene:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Mhaedros]

Ah, that explains the wannabe-Darth Vader grip

[Ngugi]

Oh, post 4000 - what better then than one including our Elven-king? ^^
He's also in earlier, here:


I'm perfectly fine with this restriction - beside that it would been nice to get some more seconds in the extended version of him () - but he plays no part in the story and wouldn't contributet to the film, rather just caused more confusion for all who had not read the books.

[StealthFox]

Ah yes, I forgot about his presence in that scene. Good catch Ngugi! (and a good 4000th post! )

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Maybe Jackson was too busy daydreaming of Legolas...