Game of thrones seven kingdoms (the MMO)

[Stannis Baratheon]

Of course, the last ones sucked too, when i saw entry at grrm's blog with it my first thoughts were Not again...
Imo the only ones who can do justice to ASOIAF's adaptions are developers who make it beacuse they want, not beacuse of profit. Every commercial organization will always place half-casual GOT watchers at first place beacuse of their numbers, dumbing everything down.

[King Of Toast]

Of course, the last ones sucked too, when i saw entry at grrm's blog with it my first thoughts were Not again...
Imo the only ones who can do justice to ASOIAF's adaptions are developers who make it beacuse they want, not beacuse of profit. Every commercial organization will always place half-casual GOT watchers at first place beacuse of their numbers, dumbing everything down.

There is a amazing game called The Witcher 2. It is the closest you will most likely get to a good ASOIAF like Role playing game.

[Korpskog]

That game looks like !

[VarrKhaitan]

There is a amazing game called The Witcher 2. It is the closest you will most likely get to a good ASOIAF like Role playing game.

so true witcher is one of the best story-line games ever made, and one of the better looking ones, its still fantasy look a like, but not ugly lannistar helmet kind of.

Ot. I really hope what they have showed so far, is going to be improved, becouse those movement is way to much unrealistic. not every knight nor footmen is trained in water stand nor "freaking-out-with-a-sword-in-hand" stand.

But I really like that they have planned for the game so far.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The same as that of the other southern houses. A mottled mixture of mail, leather, brigandines, cloth and rare oddments of plate.

Excuse me? Since when are helmets and some assorted other pieces of plate "rare"? Agree on the rest, though, although padding would be by far the most common form of non-metallic armor in a medieval army.

There is no grand, great unified "dress code" for soldiers. Levies have to use the equipment they have at home, if they are lucky their lord gives them some leather or old helmets, and have to scavenge their armor from the fallen.
Professional soldiers are equipped by the lords and at least have often some mail etc. but even for them there is no uniform- They get what the lord has available and have to scavenge missing pices from the fallen.

"Levies" are troops who serve part-time under an obligation of some sort. The lords themselves are levies too, from their liege's point of view. Either way, yes, most troops only have what they own... But that doesn't mean their gear is .

The majority of a late medieval feudal host (15th century - on which GRRM has based the armies, according to his list of source books, and I found little to contradict the time period) was composed of retainers of lords. Not a levee en masse system, not even close. Said retainers were troops whose allegiance lie with their lord, not the realm or anything, through some sort of contract or agreement. They could be paid, or they could just fight in return for the lord's favor during peacetime. No matter what the deal was, the majority were an early middle class of free, landowning peasants and minor gentry. It was pretty much standard for a man to own a polearm or a bow, a sword, a helmet, a padded jack as the minimum. Many of the gentry had horses and full armor of some kind. Sometimes lords would purchase pieces of equipment en masse to outfit their troops better, sometimes the men themselves were wealthy enough to afford good gear.

Only rich and important houses can equip some of their soldiers with something resembling an uniform. Like, the Lannister soldiers who used lion crested helmets, or the respective household guards of a faction.

Yes, rich and important houses, otherwise known as noble houses. Any noble who wasn't a retainer to another would supply his troops with a piece of cloth with his primary colors and his badge, or at least with badges themselves, for identification. The Lannisters are VERY rich and powerful, and thus it comes to me as no surprise that the majority of their army appears to be raised through sub-indenting other Lannisters.

Note that this doesn't mean their *gear* was uniform, only the general colors. And you said "something resembling a uniform".

That`s another reason why i hate the lannister armor in the series.

I hate it too - too identical and looks like .

(First, it doesn`t fit in the world and looks like some generic fantasy stuff, second PLATE ARMOR FOR NORMAL SOLDIERS?!)

Agree on the first, but not on the second. GRRM's world doesn't appear to have plate armor as something uber-rare and only worn by nobles. In fact, mercenary companies apparently have wagons full of munitions grade armor, so I don't see a reason to assume it's that uncommon. Most of the armored lancers can probably afford plate, and many of the minor gentry fighting on foot likely have it to varying degrees as well. Plate is not that expensive, really. Real world documents reveal that it was actually cheaper than mail.

It makes one believe that some factions kept a huge standing army with organized equipment. But this wasn`t the case.

No standing army =/= an army of conscripted peasants. No, no one has a standing army. But everyone keeps a retinue of trained troops ready to fight at short notice. Another important part of a retinue are sellswords hired for a campaign, instead of contracts for life - even more likely to have good equipment and lots of experience.


P.S. Read the post before attacking a strawman - I am not supporting HBO's version of the gear at all. I am addressing the team's stereotyped view of the dung ages.

[Lordinquisitor]

GRRM often mixes some stuff of different time periods. And yes, most were levies, and most had only the stuff they carried and the equipment the lords could spare for them.

Septon Meribald gives a nice speech to Brienne about that, one of the few parts of AFFC i like.

The standard of "Owning a polearm, a bow, some sort of padded armor and a sword" is quite wrong. Bows, yes, most peasants would own a bow, simply for hunting. Mayhaps some padded armor, but swords or polearms are expensive. Peasants would have daggers and axes, which are useful weapons, too, and only some sort of advanced weapons if they looted it from some corpse. The peasants in GRRMs World aren`t wealthy, so much is sure. Maybe they would have to be wealthier, but they aren`t.

The levies in our mods won`t be too badly equipped. Most will have a helmet of sorts, a good shield and a nice spear. But armor? Mail? Na, that`s unrealistic.

Professional troops will have good equipment, but a mottled mix. Most will have mail and some padding, with different helmets and their weapon of choice. Mounted troops will obviously better equipped. Those troops represent the standing retainers (Guards and men-at-arms) of each house, Levies that could be supplied with sufficient armor, or levies that have scavenged enough armor. Plate still is rare and expensive (Remember that passage when Davos was on the Sisters? The lord he spoke too told that Triston Sunderland is in quite a pinch- All his sons aspire to be knights, and even though he is the overlord of the Sisters he doesn`t have enough money to afford horses and plate for them.)

Troops like, Umber Greatswords (Direct retainers of some great house), or other advanced infantry will have some pieces of it.

And citing the Mercenary companies isn`t an argument. After all, their whole job is to fight! They get handsomely rewarded and it wouldn`t be too hard to acquire a stash of armor and equipment after a huge scale battle. And, as Tyrion saw, their spare equipment is bad. So bad, in fact, that most of it wouldn`t offer a real advantage.

Sellswords in our mod will have decent equipment. It is worse than that of professional soldiers, but they have more skill at arms in turn.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

GRRM often mixes some stuff of different time periods. And yes, most were levies, and most had only the stuff they carried and the equipment the lords could spare for them.

Equipment-wise, there's been very little mixing. Pretty much everything that's in the books is 15th century stuff, or more universal stuff which was also used in the 15th century. That, and the word "levy" DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE SERF CONSCRIPTS.

Septon Meribald gives a nice speech to Brienne about that, one of the few parts of AFFC i like.

Meribald is one guy, and one sent for a campaign of little importance. It is quite apparent that he was conscripted by some reluctant lord to make the required numbers good, a practice not uncommon when lords had little personal stake in the warfare. He speaks of it as of something general, but it is obvious he is telling his personal story, and an exaggerrated one at that. If you read the actually relevant military bits you'll see that a major part of any army are men-at-arms, and the rest is usually archers and pikemen. Not serfs with farm implements.

The standard of "Owning a polearm, a bow, some sort of padded armor and a sword" is quite wrong. Bows, yes, most peasants would own a bow, simply for hunting. Mayhaps some padded armor, but swords or polearms are expensive. Peasants would have daggers and axes, which are useful weapons, too, and only some sort of advanced weapons if they looted it from some corpse. The peasants in GRRMs World aren`t wealthy, so much is sure. Maybe they would have to be wealthier, but they aren`t.

Where did I say that peasants own that? Learn to ing read. That's not the standard every man owns, that's the recurring lowest requirement to join the army from English and German muster rolls. For the general muster of freemen. Retainers would've been better equipped on average. I am not talking about the serfs, because in the middle ages they didn't fight. Especially not in the late middle ages. The foot was generally a mix of lower gentry and wealthier freemen.

The levies in our mods won`t be too badly equipped. Most will have a helmet of sorts, a good shield and a nice spear. But armor? Mail? Na, that`s unrealistic.

I never said the average militiaman should have mail. But a padded jack and helmet were truly universal.

That, and LEVY DOESNT MEAN CONSCRIPTED PEASANTS. Retainers are levied too, but retainers are generally either wealthy or sponsored by their lord. The army Robb took south was quite evidently composed totally of retainers, mustered at short notice and bearing their lords' colors. They weren't conscripted serfs with spear&shield, the host was a mix of men-at-arms on horse, mounted archers, regular archers, pikemen and "large masses of men-at-arms on foot".

The Lannister host in the Riverlands was high quality too, composed of large numbers of presumably temporary Lannister retainers, proper Lannister retainers and some bannermen's retinues. They had picked up freeriders and mountain tribesmen along the vay, but I would dismiss them as auxiliaries. The primary fighting force of this army were men-at-arms on foot, pikemen and archers, just like Robb's.

Professional troops will have good equipment, but a mottled mix. Most will have mail and some padding, with different helmets and their weapon of choice. Mounted troops will obviously better equipped. Those troops represent the standing retainers (Guards and men-at-arms) of each house, Levies that could be supplied with sufficient armor, or levies that have scavenged enough armor. Plate still is rare and expensive (Remember that passage when Davos was on the Sisters? The lord he spoke too told that Triston Sunderland is in quite a pinch- All his sons aspire to be knights, and even though he is the overlord of the Sisters he doesn`t have enough money to afford horses and plate for them.)

First of all, retainers aren't standing troops. They are just men who will fight for a specific lord in times of need. By "guards" I assume you mean the troops of the household? There is no such thing as special guardsmen, as the term simply denotes the retainers whom a lord keeps under arms in peacetime, usually men-at-arms of the household, for various mundane purposes.

Secondly, mail was always worn over padding, and definitely more expensive than padding. A cheaper alternative or supplement to mail was a brigandine. Either way, all metallic armor requires padding.

Finally, the lord of the sisters might be either very impoverished, or stupid. Cheap armor is obviously available. Wagonloads of shoddy plate armor in Essos mean that munitions grade armor exists. What he might mean is that he cannot afford the 3 or 4 horses for each, good trainers and decorated full harness that nobles use to impress their underlings.

Troops like, Umber Greatswords (Direct retainers of some great house), or other advanced infantry will have some pieces of it.

Aside from the questionable legitimacy of a unit of men with greatswords, I must tell you that the majority of troops in Westeros are retainers of great houses, because only retainers of said house can bear its colors. This might not be direct, of course, in the sense that some troops are retainers of retainers, like Gregor Clegane's band (Clegane is a landed retainer, unlike Sandor who is a household retainer).

And citing the Mercenary companies isn`t an argument. After all, their whole job is to fight! They get handsomely rewarded and it wouldn`t be too hard to acquire a stash of armor and equipment after a huge scale battle. And, as Tyrion saw, their spare equipment is bad. So bad, in fact, that most of it wouldn`t offer a real advantage.

Yeah... No. It is an argument, because it proves that munitions grade equipment exists in westeros. Also, any armor offers an advantage. Tyrion's equipment was bad because he was forced to pick stuff matching his size, a rather unconventional one, from a limited source instead of getting proper armor produced or at least gathered for him.

[Toho]

its too late to change that now BOM. just look at the frey and stark preview.

thats pretty much the standard now.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I am not disputing the units, anyway. Just your assumptions about the middle ages. Your mod, your rosters - do as you like. I'll probably play the mod anyway, and most people won't give a .

But don't pass that all off as fact, but rather as your personal preference - then we'll have no quarrel.

[Toho]

ok, but you need to learn to calm down dude. nobody is fighting here and this is GRRM's world, not the real world. we base our facts with what little descriptions that GRRM leaves us and try to emulate how HIS world functions that was INFLUENCED (not copied) from the real world.

we made these units from what we understood and what was possible with the engine. thats it.
I realise we are not discussing the WTW units but I just though I should mention this fact.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

ok, but you need to learn to calm down dude. nobody is fighting here and this is GRRM's world, not the real world. we base our facts with what little descriptions that GRRM leaves us and try to emulate how HIS world functions that was INFLUENCED (not copied) from the real world.

we made these units from what we understood and what was possible with the engine. thats it.
I realise we are not discussing the WTW units but I just though I should mention this fact.

This is not GRRM's world, unless you have him advising in person - this is YOUR INTERPRETATION of GRRM's world based on some rather stereotypical assumptions about the middle ages, which is not necessarily accurate. My interpretation can be wholly different.

So don't claim your interpretation to be fact, and I'll be fine with it.

[Toho]

we made these units from what we understood

I think this made it pretty clear this was our interpretation, and therefore 'our' facts. if GRRM had more clearly described his armies and how the military infrastructure of his world worked then we wont be having this problem.

in a world where Vikings, Cataphracts and Medieval Knights fight each other there is little room left to make sense out of it. anyways thats it and end of discussion, I don't know why you have an urge to make a flame war everywhere you go but I ask you to behave yourself here.

this is my last warning.

[Lordinquisitor]

Well, to be fair, cataphracts aren`t mentioned.

Well, i have to agree with toho, though. No text passages indicated, for example, that plate was easily affordable.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Well, to be fair, cataphracts aren`t mentioned.

Well, i have to agree with toho, though. No text passages indicated, for example, that plate was easily affordable.

I never said plate was easily affordable. All I said was that the text does not support your stereotypical idea of the dung ages just as it doesn't support having everyone armed in 10cm thick plate with giant pauldrons and greathelms with horns. What it does support, is something roughly similar to late medieval warfare.

I think this made it pretty clear this was our interpretation, and therefore 'our' facts. if GRRM had more clearly described his armies and how the military infrastructure of his world worked then we wont be having this problem.

The wall of text made by lordinquisitor leaves quite a factual impression.

[Captain Zoran]

@Blatta

1. As Toho and Lord has stated, this is indeed their interpertation of GRRM's vision of warfare and armycomposure, which he in turn, evidently has largely based (<-- keyword) on the 15th century. Westeros however, is not strictly 15th century.

2. You're getting hooked up on names instead of what they represent. Levies, of course can be used as the general term for the troops that a Lord raises in the time of war. However, here it has been diffrentiated (by GRRM himself) into certain categories. According to GRRM:
Levies - Represent the combined forces of the serfs and freemen whom each Lord raise in the time of war, whom to a great extent supply themselves with their own equipment (meaning they grab what they have), and lack any form of standardized combat training.
Men-At-Arms - Represent the force of by the Lord's/Knight's moneybuckets themselves, equipped, paid and trained soldiers. They are the closest there is to a standing armed force. They patrol the bounderies of the Lord's/Knight's land, man guardtowers and settlements. Househould guards are basically the same, only that they belong to the Greater Lords (as in more wealthy/powerful Lords), and are therefor of a greater quality than standard Men-At-Arms, and are mostly used for the perticular Lord's own protection and guard the Lord's keep. Specific units (like Northern Spearmen/Axemen/Archers) falls into this category.
Retuines - Represent those whom follow the Lord in the times of war from loyalty. They are servants, pages, knights and bodyguards who are mostly well trained and equipped by themselves.

This is the armycomposure that GRRM describes, and although it is not exactly like it was in reality, this is his interpertation, from which the team has drawn their own schematics. M2TW's engine limits this, that they have to be divided into diffrent regimenttypes, with for the sake of the unique unit limit, they also have to mix up the "regiments" (as in, Men-At-Arms of both Stark/Umber/Bolton etc). They have added the specific AoR unit types for variation, gameplay and fun.

Your arguments have much more weight in those mods that aim to depict the actual 12/13/14/15th centuries, but Westeros itself is not it.

Do you understand what I mean?