Starting positions

[Gigantus]

It has been suggested that the starting positions are not correct with regards to the starting year of the mod. I have attached the map_regions graphic (double the original size) as well as a graphic (factions.png) showing the present starting positions. The colors agree with the ones shown in the OP (animated GIF and map).
Comments and suggestions are welcome. Feel free to use the provided graphics to indicate changes, references for the suggested changes should be made.

Faction's Start Positions



map_regions Graphic

[Kong Ming]

I noticed that Liu Bei starts from south which is historically wrong. He should have Tao Qian's provinces, because when Tao Qian died at 194 and he gave he's land to Liu Bei.

[Crustis]

Well... Its too hard to make such mod with both history accuracy and balance between factions.
Han Xuan (central south) governed only one city Changsha. Here he rules whole Jing province. There was other minor governors like himself: Zhao Fan, Jin Xuan and Liu Du. I guess there can be four minor factions for more accuracy.
As mentioned above, Liu Bei was Qian subordinate. Tao Qian died in 194 year, so i think you can replace him with Liu Bei cause mod year is also 194. Devs of original mod put Liu Bei to Yongan cause Bei can easily be crushed by Lu Bu or Cao Cao (second especialy), i guess.
Meng Huo (south west) and his generals acted in novel in 225 year. Nanman rebellion appeared after Liu Bei's Death. Dont think that they have any ranks in 194. This faction shoudnt exist at this point but for gameplay reasons devs put Nanman here. Also there was other minor rebelling warlords like Yong Kai etc (223 year)
In south east where Sun Ce and Yan Baihu share whole territory there was no Sun Ce at all in 194. He marched from Yuan Shu in 195. And there were local warlords: Liu Yao, Wang Lang and Yan Baihu himself (maybe even more but they were most powerful). But for represention of period Sun Ce should be in this mod.
Also you can add Han Sui faction to north west to make Ma Teng life not so easy. (They clashed for Liang province at this time).
Visit kongming.net (best english site about three kingdoms, in my humble opinion). Or you can play Romance of the Three Kingdoms series by Koei to better understand situation (also, all portraits taken from this games).
Sorry for "engrish".

[Gigantus]

Thanks for all the input!
The problem will obviously be a balanced game play as you pointed out.
I had a quick look into the relatively short script - it consists mainly of removing preplaced armies according to which faction is being played. I have not had the time to follow up which characters are removed by the script, but there is a possibility that it might adjust some of the discrepancies that have been mentioned.
The original has apparently attempted to emulate two rebel factions by the looks of it: the usual rebel faction plus another faction allied with them and neutral to most other factions. It has to be kept in mind that only one faction can have the special 'rebel_faction' label.

[Kong Ming]

It is true that some historic details must be sacrified for better gameplay. About that thing that Liu Bei will be crushed easily, he should be allied with Lu Bu which is historically correct and he also should be allied with Gonzun Zan which is also historically correct. Lu Bu and Liu Bei were at war with Cao, so that makes Lu Bu like a shield for Liu, so that Liu will not be crushed easily and has time to strenghten his forces and develop his cities. To have more historic campaign starting Lu Bu should have only city of Xiao Pei, also that would add some difficulty to the game. In order to survive yourself you must defend your ally in time of need like Lu Bu and Liu Bei did. I also noticed that Luo Yang starts as huge city which is correct, but it's population should be around 0 and 100 and all of it's building should be highly damaged. That's because when coalition against Dong Zhuo was formed he fled the capital (Luo Yang) and burned the whole city to dust and moved the Imperial capital to old capital of western Han, Chang 'An. I also noticed that where is Xu Zhou capital of Xu province, there's just Xiapi which isn't capital of Xu province. I also thing that south should be split into four factions Han Xuan Zhao Fan, Jin Xuan and Liu Du. Sun Ce's and Meng Huo's starting positions are fine.

[Crustis]

Second "rebel" feature is very interesting. In romance of the three kingdoms (RoTK) series you can employ all officers that you can enconter (600-700). So devs decide to make similar way in total war - they created second rebel faction and placed many generals around whole map. And you can employ them at cheap price (well, economics strangely screwed in last version of mod). Interesting move but i think it's unnecessary (In RoTK games 10 officers can do various deeds at same sity. In total war only one needed to govern city, other should go to war and that are only options for officers. So big number of them cant fit mechanic of game)
Liu Zhang position fits history, but rather is unbalanced for game. Only Cao Cao has so many regions, but he should fight in all directions (Lu Bu, Yuan Shao, Liu Biao, Yuan Shu, Li Jue and other nice persons). Zhang have three enemies: Zhang Lu (very easy to defend from him cause there are one or two mountains patch which can be easily gurded by fortresess), Nanman (when Nanman will broke through so many forests, Liu Zhang will employ x5 larger army), and Liu Bei (was a pain in original, but he should not be here as mentioned).

[Kong Ming]

That second rebel feature is really interesting, but to me Liu Zhang doesn't unbalance the mod and i just remembered something: There were no Han Xuan, Zhao Fan, Jin Xuan or Liu Du. They were all under Liu Biao's command. They became independent when Liu Biao's heir surrendered to Cao Cao, but that may be unbalanced....it may be... BTW is there also Dong Zhuo, that would be unhistorical, because he died in 192.

[Crustis]

There is no Dong Zhuo but there is his portrait when you choosing Li Jue faction. Also checked about this minor warlords. Indeed, they gained independence in somewhere 207-209 years. Hm, thats odd situtation.

[Kong Ming]

Gigantus must choose balanced factions or historical factions if i'm asked i would choose historical factions, because Liu Biao isn't SO overpowered.

[Firey the Unorthodox]

You could make factions such as Meng Huo and Han Xuan emerging factions

[Gigantus]

The use of officers has to be reworked in M2TW - too many at the beginning can simply bankrupt a faction if their salaries\upkeep are set too high. If the salary is set too low then there is a temptation to recruit whole bunches of them to take advantage of their traits and abilities which will give a vast edge over AI led armies. That in turn would require to give the AI an edge which in turn could be unbalancing the game again.

[Lucius Malfoy]

I feel Zhang Lu is out of place. I feel he should be in the territory directly to the left of his current position. I have played Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI a lot on the PS2 and on my computer. Hanzhong, which is that open territory to the left of his position currently on the map, is definitely where he should be. The province, if I am correct, that he is currently placed is Shangyong.

Might have to dig up my books again to double check some things about 194. I feel with the Dong Zhou gone, there were more warlords in the central plains area besides Li Jue.

[Ixor_Drakar]

Han Zhong is in the correct location, the Koei game maps were never the most accurate despite being amazingly fun. It was a Commandery as well as a city. http://kongming.net/novel/i/map_rtk.jpg

[Lucius Malfoy]

Han Zhong is in the correct location, the Koei game maps were never the most accurate despite being amazingly fun. It was a Commandery as well as a city. http://kongming.net/novel/i/map_rtk.jpg

Thank you for the correction! I shall keep this map for future reference. I had a hard time depicting some of the locations when reading the books. Plus...I can never find good maps to help me understand the geography of this time period better.

[Ixor_Drakar]

No problem, finally got my scanner working so here is another.
Warning large image.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also the provinces from wikipedia. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._provinces.jpg

[Gigantus]

Marvelous input! This is developing into good reference material.

[BroskiDerpman]

I think you should make any small and unimportant faction a strong rebel as you can only ave so much factions in the hard coded limits. 30 factions +1 Rebel faction

[tianzong]

I hope there also won't be a problem with clicking multiple factions in campaign play and then CTD. (i know it's a bit early for that but its always a minus for me)

[Gigantus]

The crash from clicking on multiple factions in the faction selection screen is as old as the first mod - it has never been solved satisfactory, there is even a whole tutorial about it that reduces the probability by a good amount. But ultimately you have to be prepared for it.

[tianzong]

No that's not so true. There is a world mod out there and there you where able to click them without CTD. I believe the mod is called "eras total conquest". Maybe you could ask him (or her) how they've done that.