[Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia,Serbia, Anciliaries and titles.

**Majkl** · January 30, 2013, 09:16 AM

All of that info has been posted before. It may be hard for Antonius to know about all that stuff cuz he is part of team but new members should check posts posted earlier to avoid double posting.

**Orgon** · January 30, 2013, 01:40 PM

Hi, I am author of page www.hradiska.sk, and I am glad that it became one of inspirations for TW. I would like to ask Majkl, wether I can use his translation of my article about wepons. I would like to have translated all important articles from my page into english, but i dont have time for it

**Heathen Storm** · January 30, 2013, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Majkl

All of that info has been posted before. It may be hard for Antonius to know about all that stuff cuz he is part of team but new members should check posts posted earlier to avoid double posting.

Good finds though, I looked through them. I found them useful

**Majkl** · January 31, 2013, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Orgon

Hi, I am author of page www.hradiska.sk, and I am glad that it became one of inspirations for TW. I would like to ask Majkl, wether I can use his translation of my article about wepons. I would like to have translated all important articles from my page into english, but i dont have time for it

I should ask you for coyping from ur web first.

Yeah sure, use it, but keep in mind that it is only brief info. Not really much.

**HobGremlin** · January 31, 2013, 09:05 PM

The Greeks had invented mechanical singing and moving birds, animals and even people since around the beginning of the Roman Imperial period, when Hero of Alexandria published works on hydraulics (some of the first works on the subject, which led to the modern steam engine and eventually the automobile) But the Romans never realised its potential, as far as history can tell the only use that was made of his research was the creation of 'toys', automatons, such as birds, equipped with moving parts and whistles much like a modern tea kettle. Whole sets and 'plays' were made at the time using fanciful mechanics in combination with these steam technologies. The description he gave in the video sounds very similar to the types of devices I have heard of the Greeks and Romans making. While Hero of Alexandria's work would be lost to the dark ages until the sixteenth century, these technologies may well have still been in use, especially in Constantinople, which had been able to retain much of the culture of Rome and Greece through the period.

**HobGremlin** · February 01, 2013, 06:58 AM

Hey guys, I love the mod. I've learned SO much reading through all this. I'm looking forward to seeing this progress.

Originally Posted by Majkl

I always had problems with all that linguistic stuff so much mess around

should have study something about it .. OCS/OB u mean old slavonic church and old bulgarian?

I love linguistics, though I don't know much about the slavic languages, I get really interested in finding old relations between words and titles. If you got anything you want looked up I can see what I can find.

Also, I have a history encyclopedia, not sure its accuracy, its from the 40's, but it gives some dates for some of the rulers you named as well as some others. I also looked on wikipedia to find a little more about some of them:
-Samo 623-658
-Mojmír 833-836 "founder of the Moravian state, maintained himself against pressure from the East Franks and the Bulgarians."
-Rastislav 846- 869. "made an alliance (862) with Michael III, Byzantine Emperor, to counteract the close relationship between the East Franks and the Bulgars. It says he was captured and blinded by Carloman(son of Charles the Bald, apparently) in 869
{it describes the Cyrillic conversion as taking place in 863}
-Svätopluk 870-894 "Succeeded in uniting... Moravia, Bohemia, and present day Slovakia, and managed to maintain his position as against the Germans." Converted the west Slavs to Christianity by Cyril and Methodius, but by the end of the century they are under Roman religious authority.
{it describes a great defeat by the Hungarians dissolving the kingdom in 906, he gives no details, but it is apparently in relation to the Battle of Pressburg, after this he gives names of Dukes of Bohemia [kníže?]}
-St. Wenceslas [Czech: Václav] of Přemyslid House.920-929
-Boleslav I 'The Cruel' [Boleslav I. Ukrutný] 929-967 Brother of Wenceslas, he apparently had him killed and seized the throne. He apparently made war with the Germany "until forced to accept German suzerainty", I suppose this marks Imperial aquisition of Bohemia? He then takes part in conquests to "Moravia, part of Slovakia, part of Silesia, and even Cracow". He mentions he seemed to restore some royal stability over the tribal lords
-Boleslav II 'The Pious' (Boleslav II. Pobožný) 967-999 The foundation of the bishopric of Prague, 973. Boleslav II assisted the Germans in a civil war against Henry II of Bavaria.
At the end of the tenth century, it seems that the Premysl house degrades into dynastic disputes, while the people of the land begin to apply for aid to the Germans and Poles. Poland seizes Silesia, Moravia and Cracow.
-Břetislav I 1034-1055 Reconquered Moravia for the Bohemian dukes under his father's reign cca. 1019-29. During his rule he then reclaimed Silesia and Cracow. In 1041 Emperor Henry III, wary of Bohemian expansion, invades Prague, and peace is bought in exchange for the Polish conquests and tribute
{After this point Bohemia apparently becomes an official duchy (march?) of the Holy Roman Empire, the rest of the dukes after this point either have uneventful reigns or are mostly known for their support of the Emperor.}

I hope this helps, again its from a pretty old book.

**Majkl** · February 01, 2013, 10:18 AM

@ Biatec: I read my post again, I appologize If it did seem arrogant

**Majkl** · February 01, 2013, 01:52 PM

Newest info about military findings in Slovakia from Great Moravia period. From book "Written sources to the military history of Slovakia from oldest times to end of 10th century"
War Knives - 73% of all graves
Axes - 43% of all graves
Spurs - 33% of all graves
Spear heads - 26% of all graves
Arrow heads - 24% of all graves
Swords - 7% of all graves
Calipers - 2,5% of all graves
Twitch - 1% of all graves

Most often combinations of weapons.
Knive + Axe 27,3%
Knive + Spurs 18,3%
Knive + Arrowheads 13,8%
Knive + Spearheads 9,1%

From all of the documentated graves, the most numerous composition comes from 4 weapons. Axe, Spear, Spurs, Horse. (Um do not ask me why they consider spurs and horse as weapon! lol)

Družina was proffesional army which has been core of any Moravian army, it was also stable army. While men with closest relations with ruler used swords, other less wealthy "družinníci" used axes on long shafts. Most spread armor was probably tunic tightened with belt but using fur was also pretty wide.
"Družinníci" were spread between hillforts which were basic unit of territorial, military and economical structure.
The most numerous part of army was made of free inhabitants. This oraganization was based on older tradition of military duty. Head of every "občina" was "starešina" , who in case of war called men to arms.
Tactic of Moravian armies was divided warfare. Splitting enemy armies into smaller parts while attacking and reatreating to hillforts, forests etc then attacking again etc..

In times of Avar Khaganate, slavs were fighting as "befulks" (warriors in first line), while Avar Cavalry was behind them. Befulks were marching in two arrays, first was lighter armoured troops, second heavier ones.

**Hrobatos** · February 01, 2013, 06:06 PM

Its interesting how many spurs for supposedly mostly infantry Slavs. Croatians had tendecy to use significant amount of cavalary, there is fair amount of spurs in archeological findings, some even for children. Plus there is DAI which claims 1/3 of Croatian army was mounted, even if it was far less, it would still a lot for non-nomadic peoples, such as Croatians.

This doesnt really match with those Byzantine reports about Slavic warfare. Well I blame Avars, or its perhaps the Sarmatian link...

Also its interesting about axes, I remeber I read in Ian Heaths book that Moravians and Croats prefered axes, I'd love to see something similar about other Slavic peoples, to check that axe theory, and spurs too perhaps.

**Majkl** · February 02, 2013, 04:15 AM

Well, close contacs with East Franks and Magyars as well as numerous conflicts probably caused rise of cavalry in Slavic states as well. Moravians were strong opponent to Franks and I really doubt it was like tht if they were just bunch of half naked folks with spears running in forests.

**Wareg** · February 02, 2013, 04:34 AM

This doesnt really match with those Byzantine reports about Slavic warfare. Well I blame Avars, or its perhaps the Sarmatian link

I've found somewher that there is significant (at least comparing to another Balkan nations) Asiatic contribution in modern Croats' DNA. Unfortunately, there is little info about this matter in English language webpages

**Hrobatos** · February 02, 2013, 05:03 AM

Really? As far as I know dominant are R1a ( 30% ) and I1a2 ( 70% ), I'd hardly call any of them Asiatic. I mean if we would go like that, I1a2 is believed to be one of oldest haplogroups in Europe, while R1a is most likely remaining from Indo-European migrations.

**Wareg** · February 02, 2013, 07:55 AM

I can't find that webpage but here is similar info: "Recent results of the study of the Y chromosomal heritage of the Croatian population on an Adriatic island revealed relatively high frequencies of lineages/mitochondrial haplogroups unusual for European populations (49). They indicate connections of the Croatian population with central Asian populations, possibly derived from the Avars (49). " from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2080554/
and some info here http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t179422/
I haven't read these articles fully yet, I'm "stumbled" on It by chance while looking for info about Avars. I'm also not sure If info about Avaric mtDNA amongst Croatian islanders is reliable. Enjoy reading

**Hrobatos** · February 02, 2013, 08:49 AM

The info I'm using comes from research done by Croatian Ministy of Health, few years ago, which included Dragan Primorac who then was Minister of Health

http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...omosom_web.pdf

What your link says is DNA analysis of individuals from their burial places from early medieval in Northern Croatia. These dont necceserily have to be Croats, they could be real Avars or their descedents.

PS, you should not take the second link seriously. And when I said Avar and Sarmatian link, I was not talking specificly of Croats, but Slavs in general.

**Orgon** · February 03, 2013, 02:20 AM

**Wareg** · February 03, 2013, 12:27 PM

The info I'm using comes from research done by Croatian Ministy of Health, few years ago, which included Dragan Primorac who then was Minister of Health

http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...omosom_web.pdf

What your link says is DNA analysis of individuals from their burial places from early medieval in Northern Croatia. These dont necceserily have to be Croats, they could be real Avars or their descedents.

PS, you should not take the second link seriously. And when I said Avar and Sarmatian link, I was not talking specificly of Croats, but Slavs in general.

You're right, I should read It more thoroughly before writting such "news"

I think that Avar and Frankish influences are much more likely, and It is a reason of such high percent of cavalry in nearby "Slavic" states (Croats, Great Moravia). Sarmatian influences are in conflict with sources you mentioned - It seems that early Slavic warfare was strongly based on infantry.

**Heathen Storm** · February 03, 2013, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Wareg

You're right, I should read It more thoroughly before writting such "news"

I think that Avar and Frankish influences are much more likely, and It is a reason of such high percent of cavalry in nearby "Slavic" states (Croats, Great Moravia). Sarmatian influences are in conflict with sources you mentioned - It seems that early Slavic warfare was strongly based on infantry.

Be careful with stormfront.org. That is a white supremacist website, and I don't think anyone will take it seriously.