The 'Friendzone'

[Nutsack]

Good text.

Also, it's good to remember that you can't buy another persons love, or trust. Not with money, compliments nor anything else. You can only earn it and I think this is something that often causes problems for men also, who think that they can win a woman by buying her sweet things, or giving her services and expecting something in return. A true relationship isn't going be a cold transaction. I'm not saying it's bad to be nice, it's good to be nice to people in general but try to keep it normal. It will be obvious to her if you are trying to buy her or provide her with some kind of service to try to win her over, it's very rarely going to work unless you're seriously rich.

[Cold_Mac]

Great post, Nazgūl Killer

Its probably more common of men to be blind for a woman, possibly down to the fact that many don't know how to deal with their - so far - unknown extent of interest & feelings for one person.
The woman I have talked to about this are usually rather distant & calculating with their emotions, "is he worth it" or "is he good for me" and especially the social prestige of the man ("how will my friends react to him? how does his reputation impacts my social life?") getting the most mentions.

Those questioning and weighing up made most of my friends bendable in their attitude - fitting their behaviour as she pleases most.
Those power of choice turned them all into friends.

I'm emotionally numb on this, seemingly anti-social.
One friend of mine is crippled with this as he can't talk to her and, as I called it earlier, be brave towards her so she stays in status quo till a good enough bidder comes along.
You have to be direct & take the decision for her as you can't fail. One thing no one liked was to actually take the decision of who would be the best (boy)friend, compassion was surprisingly the reason for most.

I have been blessed - don't tell her that, just lucky to have managed to espace the route many of the Neil Strauß-misinterpreters have gone: Getting bitter, misogyn and on search & destroy.
Woman are the most pleasing creation on this planet. Don't let the foul fruits ruin your dinner.
Which was my problem in the past, I love(d) eating and was too cuddly.

Being abusive towards your partner results in a far less fullfilled emotional & physical relationship.


btw it would be great irony if women read what we wrote hear and find us all so terrible

[Primergy]

So, i (23) could also need some sort of advice regarding the friendzone...

Basic History:

Met her (21) nearly one year ago, and we developed feelings for each other -problem was, she had a boyfriend but in January we had a short "affaire" till she decided a week later, that she want to stick with her boyfriend and we should stay friends...

Well, i wasn't happy about this, but i accepted it, since i could understand that you don't break up a good relationship for a maybe short "puppy love" and besides that i also don't want that someone else messes up my relationships, so i choosed the "honest road".

Felt like for several month, and even now i still have slight crush on her - but - last week we talked and she (still in relationship) told me, that there's a guy she's attracted to (but only "physically"), she also told me, that she now has an open relationship and wants to meet this guy on sunday...

Well, i got somewhat angry and told her (basicly) that if she really take this route, this will be the end of her relationship - because either she fells in love with the new guy or her boyfriend can't accept it, if she sleeps with other guys.
Well, she also got angry on me, told me to shut up and since then we had no contact.

Today i saw that she changed her FB Status to "Single"..

So... what should i do? Talking to her as the friend i was before and then watch how the other guy f her? Approaching her aggressivly or simply wait few weeks, till January, when we met in a seminary at university anyway? Or simply never talk to her and get over her?

[Caelifer_1991]

So, i (23) could also need some sort of advice regarding the friendzone...

Basic History:

Met her (21) nearly one year ago, and we developed feelings for each other -problem was, she had a boyfriend but in January we had a short "affaire" till she decided a week later, that she want to stick with her boyfriend and we should stay friends...

Well, i wasn't happy about this, but i accepted it, since i could understand that you don't break up a good relationship for a maybe short "puppy love" and besides that i also don't want that someone else messes up my relationships, so i choosed the "honest road".

Felt like for several month, and even now i still have slight crush on her - but - last week we talked and she (still in relationship) told me, that there's a guy she's attracted to (but only "physically"), she also told me, that she now has an open relationship and wants to meet this guy on sunday...

Well, i got somewhat angry and told her (basicly) that if she really take this route, this will be the end of her relationship - because either she fells in love with the new guy or her boyfriend can't accept it, if she sleeps with other guys.
Well, she also got angry on me, told me to shut up and since then we had no contact.

Today i saw that she changed her FB Status to "Single"..

So... what should i do? Talking to her as the friend i was before and then watch how the other guy f her? Approaching her aggressivly or simply wait few weeks, till January, when we met in a seminary at university anyway? Or simply never talk to her and get over her?

It ain't gonna happen, stop fixating on her, even if you're in a small town there's atleast another 50000 girls within like 10 miles, if she can't see your qualities then why should you care about her at all, or whether she wants to give her body away to some random jackass? Meet lots of new girls, have fun with it (despite the nerves that everyone gets) and you'll soon forget about her, I've gone from being one of the most reserved guys (read: not shy, I had the confidence I just had to find it) I know to just making conversations on the street without even needing to think twice about it, literally in the space of 2 weeks. After a while you'll actually enjoy it, and a girl that hasn't actually gotten with you atleast for a date really won't even be able to have you fixate on her anymore.

Here's some links to help you out:
http://www.sosuave.com/
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_fi...confirmation=1
http://www.girlschase.com/content/se...-chase-framing
http://puauniversity.com/how-to-appr...on-the-street/

[Cor De Ferrum]

Well, here's my input on the whole question if there is a friendzone. In my experience, I never had to chase a girl, they were always the ones trying to get my attention.
For ex.
In 10th grade, we were outside doing Team Sports, and this one sexy athletic girl first caught my attention when she would stare me down, and I would respond with body language as "eh" and she would try harder. I NEVER talked to her, but she always tried to talk to me, I mean she was HOT, and consider I am overweight, throw that into there and now you probably don't believe me...anyways....It got to a point where she would ride her hands up and down her legs while staring me down, and she would always complement me on how strong I am.

2nd Ex.

In 8th grade it was my first day at a new school, (yes overweight at this time too) I had been expelled from my previous school. Anyways, I was walking towards 4th hour and on my way in I bumped into this Italian-Greek beauty, she was short, slim and had a cute face. When I bumped into her she stared into my eyes for awhile, not the "You bump into Mother Russia you die Capitalist pig" look, but the "where have you been" look, you know what look I'm talking about. Moving on, class started and she wouldn't stop staring at me, she would literally turn her entire body just to look me right in the eyes. Later on, we were in line to get some books, she was infront of me, and she kept inching back towards me until I could feel her pressing onto me, at that point I absolutley knew what she wanted.

My point:

If a guy like me, whose overweight, can get these hotties to want me, then in reality all of it falls onto how you carry yourself. While not being narcissistic in nature, it is important to carry yourself around in a manner that you have "no time for small matters" Consider men that you and I know well, Napoleon, Caesar, look at their writings and consider their personalities. If you like a girl, don't cry over her, don't stress over her, don't plan around her, they will approach you if they like you. Seriously, take it from me, I'm friggin' overweight and I had these hot girls all over me, because I SHOWED NO INTEREST.

As for the friend zone: I've witnessed this thing from the 3rd person, and it is not pretty, but it makes you feel good seeing someone else in it when it's concerning a girl you fancy.
Honestly, what it was, wasn't indifference towards her as a person, more, indifference towards her advances. Be indifferent, and she will come to you. Consider this, when your Roman Legion is standing idle, minding its own business, guess who that attracts? Remember the Generals suicide charges into infantry by himself? That's how girls usually are. If you carry yourself in the matter of a Roman legion, with pride, confidence in your field and not acting worried about everything, being disciplined and know how to go with the flow, BUT show indifference towards the enemies cavalry feigns, the General gets all pissy and decides to do a suicide charge out of desperation. Now that might all be nonsensical rambling, but it's 9am and I haven't slept since I woke up at 12am yesterday....

[irontaino]

OP kinda just reinforces the idea of a friend zone while trying to debunk it.

[Savoyard]

Cor De Ferrum, I don't think "Don't Be Interested" is a good course of action at all. Not all women want to flaunt like that.

[Arvedui01]

I told the girl I consider to be my "best friend" I kind of liked her. She said

You're one of the sweetest, nicest guys I've ever met, but I don't have those feelings for you Im sorry.

My case really isn't anything new, I know. But Im stunned. I feel like I don't know what to do anymore. There is a very good chance I ruined both her Christmas and my own. We're off of school for three weeks so we're not likely to see each other for that amount of time, or text, or message or any of that.

My best male friend thinks this has nothing to do with "the friend zone," I like to think he just doesn't understand what it is/is not- but the question that I keep bringing up to myself is, why am I not attractive to her? I am extremely intelligent. I am fit. I can make her laugh. All of this sounds pretty cookie-cutter doesn't it?

I was almost certain she was showing signs of liking me, so I acted in part because I was worried for her feeling I was acting too cold. I was "playing the game," trying not to text her everyday, trying to believe I was only ever seeing what I wanted to see and absolutely nothing else. I was trying to not be there for her 100% Maybe my 85 is too far, I don't know. I was relatively contented playing the game, waiting for her to feel it. I can make a strong argument that she did many things for me; that it really wasn't 90/10 but closer to that 50/50 you mentioned.

She gave me rides everywhere. Whenever there was an event we were both invited to she always offered to pick me up and take me there.
Whenever I asked for what the homework was, she was there.

She used to half joke that "I own you, you don't have free will." Her exact words. This was a huge trigger to me- so I tried to act- I tried to assert my equal rights, but something in how I have carried myself has told her she can ask for virtually anything and get it. Its all wrong, so wrong. I did what I thought were little things; getting her forms she couldn't pick up from the office, turning things in, holding onto her things when she asked, not because I was automatically being a gentleman. And she'd smile at me like... like it was returned.

Between all of this I find myself in the greatest part confused- she showed tons of signs of liking me, but apparently I was just seeing what I wanted to see. We're both relatively socially awkward people, so even if I can get over her as a romantic interest, I think our friendship is going to take a serious hit due to the awkwardness that is going to ensue come January. But I am angry too. I am angry that I have metaphorically bled this much for her and allowed my "best friend," role to make me be there for her when she really almost took it for granted.

My plan thus, is to not speak to her for awhile- try getting her to miss me. But I don't want to destroy the friendship.

[Angrychris]

lack of confidence and indecisiveness. Just make a move and be assertive. Worse case scenario is she says no. I suffer from the same prob.

[Arvedui01]

Im going to use this thread to vent; and when the time comes record my progress or lack thereof in escaping this fate- perhaps a testament to the success of Nazgul's method.
Alright, its been a whopping 48 hours since she made clear no feelings were returned, and I already feel like I didn't really lose anything.

I don't feel too invested in her as a potential significant other anymore. I'll try having no contact for a few weeks, and see where that takes things.

[Astaroth]

Tbh my own experiences with the "friendzone" are like this:

Meeting a new girl and turning her into a gf/having a thing with her = very possible and, depending on the girl, not too hard. My success rate with this is pretty high.

but...

Meeting a girl, becoming friends, remaining friends for quite a while and then becoming lovers = very, very hard. My success rate with this is pretty close to zero (then again, I haven't tried it that much).

It is just so. much. easier. to hook up with a girl who you aren't good friends with. Simply because attraction can disappear fairly quickly when you are all buddy-buddy with each other.

[Hobbes.]

What I think of it:
People who have a nice personality and are not good looking have a great chance of getting stuck in the friendzone. Simply put, any other form of relationship with that type of person does not even cross girls' minds. Now there are some girls who might not care about appearence that much. However do try to look as good as possible because all people appreciate good looks. Also, never buy into that "be yourself" crap; if you're being yourself and your success rate is zero, then you need to change something about you. Don't be a hypocrite, ofc.
As for people who are good looking, I guess that they screw up somewhere in between, handle some situations wrong or are not confident enough. Which is stupid. Use your advantage, damn it!

[Nazgūl Killer]

What I think of it:
People who have a nice personality and are not good looking have a great chance of getting stuck in the friendzone. Simply put, any other form of relationship with that type of person does not even cross girls' minds. Now there are some girls who might not care about appearence that much. However do try to look as good as possible because all people appreciate good looks. Also, never buy into that "be yourself" crap; if you're being yourself and your success rate is zero, then you need to change something about you. Don't be a hypocrite, ofc.
As for people who are good looking, I guess that they screw up somewhere in between, handle some situations wrong or are not confident enough. Which is stupid. Use your advantage, damn it!

The "Be yourself" crap is the best advice ever given - Simply because if you are not yourself, and someone falls for you - They are not falling for you. They fall for what they image you to be, and that couldn't be farther than what you really are. Finding yourself in a relationship with someone who doesn't really know you how you want them to know you, but rather fell in love with a hypocritical image of yourself will only end one way.

Be yourself. But I do agree with you that if being yourself (And you can truly say you are being yourself) doesn't work, then something needs to change within you, not outward - But inward. You need to change yourself, but truly make a change, not just fake it. Hell, that's exactly what I've been saying in the OP.

Tbh my own experiences with the "friendzone" are like this:

Meeting a new girl and turning her into a gf/having a thing with her = very possible and, depending on the girl, not too hard. My success rate with this is pretty high.

but...

Meeting a girl, becoming friends, remaining friends for quite a while and then becoming lovers = very, very hard. My success rate with this is pretty close to zero (then again, I haven't tried it that much).

It is just so. much. easier. to hook up with a girl who you aren't good friends with. Simply because attraction can disappear fairly quickly when you are all buddy-buddy with each other.

Yes. Easier. But less rewarding.


I'll give you an example; my ex of two years ago - We hit it off immediately. We spent quite a while talking and getting to know each other before dating, and it ended six months after we started dating with only a few memories together, and realizing that she wasn't all that great.
My ex of a year ago or so; we hit it off immediately - And held for only two months, again with only a few memories and realizing afterward that she was not that good for me.
My current girlfriend? We've been 'friends' for 2 and a half years. Attraction was always in the air, hence why we were 'friends'. We became closer and closer and closer, and have now been dating for four months - In these four months we've done things that will likely stay with me until I die. I remember every single day of the past four months, and it's been absolutely fantastic (Despite the army getting in the way more often than not, and limiting our time together). I've never had such a great time with any other woman in my entire life. And she herself told me that she did more with me (And most importantly, she created more lasting memories with me) in three months than she did with her ex who was with her for almost two years.

Being friends first, as far as I'm concerned, leads to a very very satisfying relationship - Because this way you know she trusts you, and you trust her far more than you would any random woman coming across your path.

Im going to use this thread to vent; and when the time comes record my progress or lack thereof in escaping this fate- perhaps a testament to the success of Nazgul's method.
Alright, its been a whopping 48 hours since she made clear no feelings were returned, and I already feel like I didn't really lose anything.

I don't feel too invested in her as a potential significant other anymore. I'll try having no contact for a few weeks, and see where that takes things.

That's great. The last thing you need is to dwell on this and mourn a fictional 'potential relationship'. It's very simple: Yes or no. Black or white. And it's possibly the only thing that is that simple with women

[Hobbes.]

That's what I was talking about, NK That kind of change would make you a better person, as long as it's not something superficial.

[Nazgūl Killer]

You'd be surprised, sometimes even the most superficial things have a deeper effect than you might think - Muscles vs. fat and so on and so on. Looking better might just make you feel better. Who knows?

[Hobbes.]

Well exercise can make you feel better, relieves stress etc. Besides, you end up looking good and girls like that. I do think people should try to look as good as possible if they want to get girls to notice them, because no matter what anyone can say, the first impression is extremely important.

[Arvedui01]

I feel I should update everyone (I already know you don't really care but thats ok ) as to how my "friend zone" situation is going. I can use my own posts in the future to synthesize a supplemental guide to debunking the friend zone.

EDIT: Edited to censor my naiveté.

Please ignore the picture attached, it literally does not have meaning.

[sephodwyrm]

The friendzone is the least hospitable place on Earth. You'd find more love in Death Valley.

[Arvedui01]

EDIT: If you already have a somewhat 50/50 relationship, 60/40 etc... and you feel like she she may be getting closer to you... Well every time it seems like she is, you have reason to just keep moving forward and expect to just be friends. Unless the situation is completely beyond reasonable doubt, you need to remember that women think very differently from men. They can take friendships very far without any intention of pursuing a romantic or semi-romantic relationship.

Do not trust to hope, it is forsaken in these lands.

I guess I am one of the cases where even after arriving at a somewhat even relationship; after making sure you weren't always available, it just continued on the linear path of friendship. Which even then I cannot say is a total loss- she's my best friend. We have each other's backs as best as I think any two people can promise, but I'm definitely the back-up, go-to-guy for when she feels lonely but doesn't want a significant other. You can believe you have everything- looks, intelligence, wit; and go between days of doubting it all because the girls for which it seems to matter don't see it. This is the very human folly of wanting what you can't have. Definitely bittersweet.

[Arvedui01]

Please delete this post.