HOW ROME2 NAVAL BATTLE WILL BE FAR BETTER THAN SHOGUN2

[weirdoascensor]

Why Rome 2 Naval will be far better than Shogun 2? How do you think?

Shogun 2 : Rowing ships with boarding attacks, fire bombs, arrows, musket, cannons + occasional sailing ships + european ships.

Rome 2: Rowing galleys, "remes" with RAM, arrows, corvus, catapult+other ships

How Rome 2 would improve it to be far better than its predecessors?


There. Keep the OP simple and debatable. All cap title. Hope the thread doesnt sink too fast....

[DarthRuanek]

All caps is obnoxious.

Anyways, the time period has a ton of large scale naval battles (the Punic Wars bring some obvious examples). Ramming was the main method of attack, along with ship-born artillery and occasionally boarding. So it doesn't look too different from Shogun 2 historically. Galleys also allow for movement regardless of wind, which I prefer.

They have stated that each individual naval unit will be composed of multiple ships, which will help to make things larger scale and more interesting. Aside from that, and the obvious AI stuff, I can't think of any other major ways to improve it.

[weirdoascensor]

Obnoxious? what obnoxious is that only one naval thread has managed to float for the time being...countless others sinks quickly under the wave of trivial threads.

This aspect is Important. But people tend to overlook it.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

All caps is obnoxious.

Anyways, the time period has a ton of large scale naval battles (the Punic Wars bring some obvious examples). Ramming was the main method of attack, along with ship-born artillery and occasionally boarding. So it doesn't look too different from Shogun 2 historically. Galleys also allow for movement regardless of wind, which I prefer.

They have stated that each individual naval unit will be composed of multiple ships, which will help to make things larger scale and more interesting. Aside from that, and the obvious AI stuff, I can't think of any other major ways to improve it.

Wasn't just the first punic war with large ship battles? In the second war the romans had sea superiority are'nt they?

But i totally agree with you. There are plenty of Naval threads to discuss.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I hope first of all tht they will put the starting distances closer , its utterly boring to wait half an hour to get close to the other enemy ships , and since are all raw ships it will be very slow fight ...

then the advantage tough is that now you can land troops .. so if a map is made with islands perhaps you can drop troops on an island and place catapults there or the like ...

but I can't see anything else more to improve apart than probably now naval battles and field battles can become a same thing ...

[Lockcaps]

It needs:

Far FAR better boarding system - it needs to work flawlessly. Also boardings needs to last longer, in Shogun2 it takes about 5 seconds before 1 side routs(and the soldiers kill eachother at ridicilous speeds during boarding)

Ramming to work well - imo, it should do more damage the less health the enemy ship has. So ramming a ship with full health wouldn't do much damage, but withering it down with archers and artillery fire, and then ramming it when it's really low should just SPLIT IT IN HALF!(I don't care if this is unrealistic, i want this!)

Sort of OT: How the hell are armies being onboard ships on the campaign map going to transfer into battle? Does it mean that a ship with 100 marines normally would suddenly get 100 marines + 250 soldiers(example)?

[Laids]

There's a thread right below this one, discussing the exact same thing, pointless thread...

[SughdianWarrior]

On Warcast Jack said there will be different types of ranged and melee units on the boats so I suspect boarding and melee fights will play bigger role. There will of course be heavy weapons like catapults on the ships. This will probably make naval battles slower but more cinematic. Most battles will probably take place near shore rather than open sea, which can easily turn naval battles to land battles, when marines park their ships and fight it out on land. It will be interesting.

[weirdoascensor]

There's a thread right below this one, discussing the exact same thing, pointless thread...

Laids,
I've conversed with Bethencourt several times in that thread, including The same topic in the OP

the reason why i made a thread like this, is to adress a specific point, that is what could be learned from the lessons of Shogun to improve the all important naval aspect of Rome.

In fact, some people and myself had made threads about specific naval issues, but people dont give a about it.

[Greve Af Göteborg]

Don't post threads will all-caps titles, it is pretty much against the rules "Posting excessively in capital letters".

Anyway, the naval battles will be pretty much like Shogun 2 with ramming and artillery pieces on the ships.

[wolfbane751]

eh didnt like the naval battles in shogun 2 vanilla but FoTS naval battles were pretty fun for me

i think that it will be archers fire until you get close enough to board or ram the enmy ships which wont be that interesting to me but i hope they do the naval battles well so other people can have fun with it

[Ussaid the Hashshashin]

Of cource it would be better!

A foggy day and you cant see the enemy ships!
You decided to put some troops on a island and as they are boarding a ship just appear from the front of the Island!
You try to sink it using your archers and artillery!
And as you are doing this suddenly a ship just appear on your back charging over you and as you cant run away since troops are still boarding but you just try to get away but it was to late and the enemy ship ram you through and back fall over your boarded troops and the other sank!

[Rorarii]

If rome 2 loses the Zap-Bang of later games then they will need to develop the tactics of ancient naval warfare!

R

[Destraex]

They need:
• ability to choose whether rowers participate in boarding
• ability to lower and stow sails or not
• ability to ram and then some micro to reverse and successfull disengage
• ability to destroy enemy oars and ability to stow oars before this happens to you
• fatigue if use tired rowers too much
• ramming speed
• ability to see the condition and maintenance ships are in.
• ability for boarders to choose many different boarding tactics
• ability for boarders to be withdrawn if losing
• differentiation between slave and citizen rowers and who can fight
• ability for experienced crews to makeover better
• it should not end with the biggest ship winning but the smartest commander
• ability to run aground or be caught in storms. Read the weather
• ability to beach boats
• ability to collapse towers to speed retreat
• ability to throw stuff overboard to speed ship
• ability to have squadrons with traits like commanders
• ability to supplement Marines with legionaries
• ability for weather to affect ship handling
• ability to use anchors in special ways. Remember outside Carthage? They were pretty much using spring anchors to detach after ramming
• smaller ships with shallower draughts should be able to go in shallower water to escape
• merchant ships need to play a large part
• trade ships and convoys should be attackable

[Erwin Rommel]

Shogun 2 still has torpedos and sea mines.

[DarthRuanek]

• ability to choose whether rowers participate in boarding
• ability for boarders to choose many different boarding tactics
• differentiation between slave and citizen rowers and who can fight
• ability to collapse towers to speed retreat
• ability to throw stuff overboard to speed ship
• ability to use anchors in special ways. Remember outside Carthage? They were pretty much using spring anchors to detach after ramming

That's just adding a lot more stuff to have to think about. Having little things like that really doesn't add much to the game, and would make naval battles unnecessarily complex.

• ability to supplement Marines with legionaries

A boat can only carry so many people, you know.

• merchant ships need to play a large part
• trade ships and convoys should be attackable

ETW at least already had trade interdiction. But attacking merchant fleets would really just add more pointless naval battles. I mean, they wouldn't stand a chance. So why force us to have to fight them every time instead of just having a system to allow fleets to blockade/interfere with rival trade?

[Destraex]

Do you really want to play the game? I reckon it would be great to be able to attack troop convoys at least.

[DarthRuanek]

Do you really want to play the game? I reckon it would be great to be able to attack troop convoys at least.

Assuming they have military escorts, sure. And since I doubt R2TW will radically change the way we transport armies across bodies of water, I suspect military fleets and armies will go hand in hand.

[Bulk22]

My two cents:
1. Ramming and boarding need to be two different options. From the demo it looks like that to board one ships rams another then just boards if it doesn't destroy the other ship. That's fine but the option to just straight ram and disengage should also be there.
2. The ability to destroy an enemy ship's oars and/or rudders. This was a very common tactic of the era, and should be in the game.
3. There should be missile weapons of some kind in a ships towers. The Egyptian ship in the demo didn't appear to have anything in the tower, it looked like it was just there to add to the look of the ship. There should be ballistas, or at least soldiers throwing rocks or javelins, or something, as this was also a feature of the era.
4. Being able to lighten a ship by throwing it's towers overboard.
5. Specifically for the Romans, the corvus and harpax DEF need to be in there.

[torongill]

It needs:
Far FAR better boarding system - it needs to work flawlessly. Also boardings needs to last longer, in Shogun2 it takes about 5 seconds before 1 side routs(and the soldiers kill eachother at ridicilous speeds during boarding)
Ramming to work well - imo, it should do more damage the less health the enemy ship has. So ramming a ship with full health wouldn't do much damage, but withering it down with archers and artillery fire, and then ramming it when it's really low should just SPLIT IT IN HALF!(I don't care if this is unrealistic, i want this!)
Sort of OT: How the hell are armies being onboard ships on the campaign map going to transfer into battle? Does it mean that a ship with 100 marines normally would suddenly get 100 marines + 250 soldiers(example)?

As mentioned by HardwareMaster and seen in the E3 video, the boarding system is much smoother and works much better.
It seems something like this is implemented - you can see that in the E3 video - the Egyptian pentere has caused 45% damage to the Roman Quadreme, whereas the second ram by the Flagship just breaks the roman ship in half. But it might be just the size and speed of the Flagship at play here. Still, that's 45%.
It hasn't been confirmed yet, but I believe transport ships will be something very fragile and very vulnerable. They will be big, of course, they need to transport 160 men. Armies aboard ships are different from navies. Navies are purpose-built.

Wasn't just the first punic war with large ship battles? In the second war the romans had sea superiority are'nt they?
But i totally agree with you. There are plenty of Naval threads to discuss.

There were plenty of ancient naval battles before and after the First Punic war. - Chios and Leda(sp?), Actium, etc.

Anyways, the time period has a ton of large scale naval battles (the Punic Wars bring some obvious examples). Ramming was the main method of attack, along with ship-born artillery and occasionally boarding. So it doesn't look too different from Shogun 2 historically. Galleys also allow for movement regardless of wind, which I prefer.
They have stated that each individual naval unit will be composed of multiple ships, which will help to make things larger scale and more interesting. Aside from that, and the obvious AI stuff, I can't think of any other major ways to improve it.

Not every naval unit will feature multiple ships - in the E3 video you can clearly see that only the assault quadreme and the archer pentere have multiple ships. The bigger the ship, the fewer ships per unit.

They need:
• ability to choose whether rowers participate in boarding
• ability to lower and stow sails or not
• ability to ram and then some micro to reverse and successfull disengage
• ability to destroy enemy oars and ability to stow oars before this happens to you
• fatigue if use tired rowers too much
• ramming speed
• ability to see the condition and maintenance ships are in.
• ability for boarders to choose many different boarding tactics
• ability for boarders to be withdrawn if losing
• differentiation between slave and citizen rowers and who can fight
• ability for experienced crews to makeover better
• it should not end with the biggest ship winning but the smartest commander
• ability to run aground or be caught in storms. Read the weather
• ability to beach boats
• ability to collapse towers to speed retreat
• ability to throw stuff overboard to speed ship
• ability to have squadrons with traits like commanders
• ability to supplement Marines with legionaries
• ability for weather to affect ship handling
• ability to use anchors in special ways. Remember outside Carthage? They were pretty much using spring anchors to detach after ramming
• smaller ships with shallower draughts should be able to go in shallower water to escape
• merchant ships need to play a large part
• trade ships and convoys should be attackable

• there are no oarmen.
• we haven't seen anything like that, but I would like to see "retract oars"
• How many boarding attack types are there? There's boarding and... well, that's it.
• you can retract your boarders only if the enemy decides to let you do so, so not very likely.
• Run aground isn't very likely with ships that have something like 2m draft. That's why they can fight in major rivers as well.
• There wasn't all that much that can be thrown overboard, you know. The biggest ships might be able to throw their artillery(balista/onager) overboard, but it won't help them very much, because the smaller ships are faster and more nimble.
• Navies will be like armies, you will need to have an admiral to control them. So they will have traditions and the admirals will have traits and skills as well.
• I don't think it will be possible to supplement them, unless you mean after battle. It will be great if they do, that means a much greater flexibility between units, something that hasn't been done before. But I doubt it.
• weather will be awesome in general, but I don't think it will happen - Med rowing ships required calm weather, so I wouldn't expect anything like battles during a storm that could be seen in NTW.
• there won't be merchant ships - instead your navy will be able to assume "raiding" stance that hurts the enemy economy and gives you money.
• transport convoys will be attackable, that's why you will need escorts to guard your transports during an invasion.