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Thread: Can the fish see the river?

  1. #1

    Default Can the fish see the river?

    Title.

    Discuss this, and its implications to man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  2. #2
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    Flying fish can and trout, when they have to leap up river, can.
    In short the special few can see the river.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  3. #3

    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    Good question! They probably see the river like we see the earth. If they stay too much on land, they die... if we stay too much time underwater, we die. So the fish sees the river but he lives in it so he doesn't really care.

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    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    This question is actually more complicated than it at first might seem. First of all, the concept of river is most certainly not understood by a fish. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I am aware, a fish cannot form a multitude of empirical particularities into generalities, that is, concepts. Now this might be hard to imagine for us humans, because our brain naturally organizes empirical particulars into generalities, i.e., it sees patterns everywhere. Nevertheless, I would be inclined to think that a fish only perceives his immediate surroundings, and is driven by basic instincts/stimulants/reflexes. Even if the fish, like a trout, would see more of the river by flying above it, it would not understand it as a definite thing, that is, a river. Its brain simply does not allow for such advanced thinking.
    Last edited by Diamat; July 30, 2012 at 12:42 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    This question is actually more complicated than it at first might seem. First of all, the concept of river is most certainly not understood by a fish. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I am aware, a fish cannot form a multitude of empirical particularities into generalities, that is, concepts. Now this might be hard to imagine for us humans, because our brain naturally organizes empirical particulars into generalities, i.e., it sees patterns everywhere. Nevertheless, I would be inclined to think that a fish only perceives his immediate surroundings, and is driven by basic instincts/stimulants/reflexes. Even if the fish, like a trout, would see more of the river by flying above it, it would not understand it as a definite thing, that is, a river. Its brain simply does not allow for such advanced thinking.
    Reminds me of this:

    A horse walks into a bar. The bartender asks, "Why the long face"? The horse does not respond, because it is a horse and lacks any cognitive ability to speak or understand English. Instead, it becomes confused by its surroundings, takes a dump on the floor, and gallops out of the bar knocking a few tables over in the process.

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    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    I like your conclusion Diamat. Well met. You are indeed correct, I highly doubt that the fish has conceptualized the object and defined seperately from itself. It takes children years to learn that other people have different perspectives than themselves. While I don't think you necessarily must have this ability you must at the very least posses a concept of object permanence to have a name for the object. So then object permanence could be seen as the minimal bar a fish needs to have to see the 'river' and not simply it's 'environment'.

    Interestingly there are animals of the fish kingdom which do possess this ability. Many species of shark are extraordinarily smart. A wrass is a good candidate. Oscars are a common aquarium fish that should have this ability. Further Blue Rams should too. This begs the question, this seems like a really easy trick for fish to perform yet so many other animals have difficulty with it.

    River fish are surprisingly intelligent with salmon, and carp hitting the top of the chart. Both salmon and carp do indeed jump out of the river to help save energy on their swims which means these fish must in some form understand that by jumping out of the water it's easier but must also recognize that leaving the water is dangerous.

    Whether they conceptualize it like we do I highly doubt. Even if they do understand the difference they understand it in a subconscious level learned or not.

    However there's an interesting twist to it. Say that we're all 'fish' caught in the flow of a 'river' (for lack of a better term) how would we know? This is an interesting concept I've played around with quite a bit with my idea on super-organisms. My conclusion so far is that like the carp I jump outside of the river and observe it from a different perspective. In this I must wonder both if it's possible, if others have done so and if they have what we must have thought of them? But if we are caught in the flow I think we all possess the ability to decide to head against it. It may lead to the 'promised lake' or it might just lead to the mouth of a bear. Thus I like to consider different frames of reference. From micoscopic to macroscopic and beyond. What we see and observe could simply be the incomplete aggregate of something else entirely.

    An interesting thought.

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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    River? Bah.

    The real question, is can the carp wonder of the world beyond the fish tank?

    Does a horse with blinders on worry about what it cannot see?
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; August 07, 2012 at 12:42 AM.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    That is actually a very good point... I'm quite happy with the responses you've all given
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  9. #9
    Rinan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    The whole issue reminds me a bit of Plato's Cave allegory. The fish are like the people chained up in the cave. For the latter, their entire reality is based upon the wall they're facing and the shadows on that wall. For the fish their entire reality is the river and their day-to-day activety. Neither are remotely aware of the possibility of an alternative reality. Of the world outside the cave, of the world outside the river.

    The difference between fish and man would be that man can break free from his shackles and become aware of the other reality. According to Plato anyway.
    But... What about the fish? How can we be sure they can't break free from their reality? How can you know they cannot conceptualise land? Disregarding all neuroscience for the moment, because in my opinion conclusions from (neuro)science are not binding to philosophy in any way. Sure, the brain of the fish is not equipped adequately with the neural functions our brain needs to conceptualise. But that doesn't mean the fish can't. Since we can't look into the fish' mind, we'll never know for sure. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is...to_Be_a_Bat%3F)

  10. #10

    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    A fish is aware of boundaries. It uses them regularly. It knows what the boundaries are, in a simple sense. It knows that there is a surface that it uses as an opportunity to grab a struggling insect or a hasty gulp of air in brackish water with low oxygen content. It knows that there is a bank of earth and a bottom of silt. But, those are not contextualized into a representation of "River."

    Does it recognize the environment as "River" as we understand the term? No.
    Under the Patronage of Thanatos.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    We humans may be able to conceptualise things, but the fish sees the river like a camcorder records scenes. In other words, it doesn’t need to understand what the river is, it sees it, experiences it and swims in it.

    Perhaps if we humans didn’t overcomplicate everything so much we’d see the river too. [e.g. some philosophers think we imagine the world, or that it is subjective, etc etc, and yet our brains are camcorders too].

    The salmon of knowledge disapproves! ~ Celtic myth concerning how the salmon knows its course between oceans and rivers to the place of birthing.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    To revisit what I said in August, if you put blinders on a horse it calms down and focuses. If you put blinders on a person he's afraid of what he can't see and loses focus.

    Something is different.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

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    Rinan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    If that were true propaganda wouldn't work.
    If you look at blinders in a metaphoric or more abstract way. Mankind is often blinded and it calms him.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    When I read this I equated the fish to man and the river to our reality. Therefore the question posed to me is mankind capable of peering outside of our reality? Being able to distinguish what is rather than what we perceive. I think in a few ways it might be possible. In the mind there are no boundaries and as such there are levels consciousness could reach that might be beyond what we now perceive to be "human" limits. In time (assuming humanity does not destroy itself) humanity could transcend itself and evolve out of what we currently consider to be human. I think there are no limits to the potential of mankind; therefore rather than the fish seeing the river, I think eventually it will become the river.

    Adnan

  15. #15

    Icon1 Re: Can the fish see the river?

    The fish has no need to see the river; he is already where he is meant to be. His life’s purpose is already set. He has no need to question the river. He simply accepts the river.

    Man thrust into the world with pain, plague with fear and doubt, but ever dreaming and hoping, that one day he will find his river.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    Curious Lazarus was this a theoretical thought experiment about the limits of our perceptions and abilities to visualise and understand the world or conversely a philosophical question verging on platonic ideas?

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    pacifism's Avatar see the day
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    The river is a boundary, no doubt. The fish are vaguely aware of something that is outside the river and beyond, but that does little change to its life. Even though occasionally a fish is caught and goes beyond anything they know of, it can't happen to HIM, but someone else.

    Most fish go with the flow. Except the salmon. Are we going to be normal fish in our short, precious lives? Although it is so much harder to go against the flow, will we be salmon and jump the other way?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    I purposely left the question extremely open so both the thought experiment and the philosophical question could be discussed. The thing that brought it forward in to my mind was the thought experiment, a few thoughts about the aether and other various musings on the train. Now that I look at it though, I'm not entirely sure what I was ever hoping to learn
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  19. #19
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Can the fish see the river?

    I'm not sure either. I think Diamat nailed it with conceptual limitations in comparison to humans and honestly while I sometimes wish there was something other than what there is, there isn't. Logic and perception create our directly verifiable beliefs and peer reviewed consensus based objectvity combined with the scientific method and empiricism give us a workable model of the universe. There is literally nothing but platonic theory beyond this and of course YOU personally don't believe it nor do any others with competent philosophical knowledge because of the myriad reasons its a shite piece of philosophy.

    Although getting beyond the pale and I get into really wishy washy language, crappily defined thoughts and language and occasionally evangelical BS about Buddhism when I do this here goes.

    If you don't accept free will as absolute nonsense, if you accept vaguely the existentialist idea of authenticity, the buddhist idea of relative mental freedom from both unhealthy desire but more importantly freedom from intellectual programmed constraints that comes from meditation and practice is it possible that we do have our own river, its just a mental construct and programmed conditioning that we don't break out of.

    To further compound my failure in descent into madness and wishy washy thinking which will probably result in my ultimate conversion to mormonism I'll offer one more thought. On an academic level I'm rather unsure of my ideas as determinism or at least the illusion of it is so strong, because it seems our capacity for decision making on a minute to minute or hour to hour basis is so limited. Evidence bears this out at every level. However as a slim hope I hold out hope one day I'll realise that through an extraordinary feat of reasoning that free will exists as a long term determination of goals. Now my worst insult that I can think of for someone is, "basically you're not even a real person" what that infers is that they are merely a set of preprogrammed responses and is incapable of rational and logical deduction that would lead them to challenge programmed and prejudicial positions and that they are at best an automoton. I was thinking of starting a topic on this very thing. For those poor fools, regardless of whether it is determined or not, they can't see the river.

    If that is to abstract, crap or just stupid/mental ignore it

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