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Thread: TWC PVP Economy Summit

  1. #1

    Default TWC PVP Economy Summit

    I propose that this thread become the basis for economic policy and possibility, for the future of the server. Most threads don't seem to stick to the topic on hand. I'm requesting that those of you interested in the economy post your ideas/comments/suggestions etc. I'll toss a few of my own opinions into the mix.

    There are many ways we can go about it, but so far a few seem to be the most suggested.

    A. Adjusted iconomy pay-off to only pay for highly valued ores.
    B. Relying on emeralds/dias/gold
    C. Relying on a mix of the two, whereby valuables are converted to a tangible money source
    (There are others, working with a headache atm, sorry)

    A- Good idea, still mainly rewards miners and can not be stolen (AFAIK)

    B. Good idea, though some of the interesting features being released will have to be compromised.

    C. Money has meaning and value, and doesn't come out of thin air- but can not be stolen..

    Any comments, suggestions, ideas that are inherently on topic- would be appreciated. Lets try not to go too crazy here folks.

    -Kisraga-

    Concerned Merchant

  2. #2
    Vicarius
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    I'd rather see money be the currency that emeralds, especially as emeralds can only be found in certain biomes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    I think that an item based currency isn't a bad idea, however we need to consider the pros and cons.

    Pros:

    Can be stolen (interaction)
    Would/could result in manual trading (+Interaction, -trading potential)
    Tangible item (Immersion)

    Cons:
    Might require manual trading (-trade +interaction)
    May require the removal of villager trading (-1 convenience, -1 features)
    Only found in certain biomes
    Could realistically return us to simple dia/gold/iron trading due to convenience versus emeralds (For non emerald required exchanges)

    I kind of like the idea, just not a huge fan of many of the restrictions this might pose.

  4. #4
    Caesar914's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    My main concerns for an emerald based economy:

    1. They only generate in one biome, Extreme Hills, which we commonly call mountains. That doesn't seem fair at all that we should force every faction to have a mountain capital or outpost in order to just stay relevant.
    2. I don't believe that the village trading mechanic is meant to sustain a pvp economy. It'll break the game somewhere in there. Who would give a blacksmith villager 4-5 diamonds in exchange for 1 emerald? I think in the end people will just use diamond as a currency and ignore emerald when they can.
    3. It's doubtful that this can work with our Factions and ChestShop plugins.

    I don't think Iconomy dollars are the main problem in our situation, I think the problem is how they are used. I support the ideas put forth that they should only be aquired from mining ores, not stone or common blocks. This will help deflate the currency. And also, make claiming land less expensive. $2000 for a single chunk of land is too expensive, and it won't need to be as high if people are making less across the board.
    Last edited by Caesar914; July 30, 2012 at 02:48 AM.
    MCC: ajr914oh

  5. #5

    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Really nice to get more focused opinions on this matter. A major curiosity of mine is whether or not chestshop can/will be utilized with the restart. Requiring manual trading is a + for interactivity, but would make trade a major hassle imo.

    Thoughts on manual trading?

  6. #6
    Vicarius
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    I'd prefer manual trading.

  7. #7
    Caesar914's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    I don't trust manual trading. Chestshop is the best middle man we could have wished for. With manual trading it requires both parties to meet up at the same location at the same time and then trust each other that both will drop their part of the bargain and not kill each other. In your words, major hassle. Chestshop is worth keeping.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    There are merits to each of them, and honestly I do lean towards Chestshop, the real question in my mind on that issue is "Can the economy thrive without it?"

    Personally, I'd much prefer to keep it, due to many of us having limited time on the game.

  9. #9

    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    A. Adjusted iconomy pay-off to only pay for highly valued ores.
    This doesn't actually solve any of the problems of the iConomy. You could achieve the same thing by simply reducing how much money is given across the board. Technically it's more random and luck based - except that your average player doesn't mine for 5 minutes over his Minecraft career. It's going to average out to a steady income, just slower. Of course, since land will need to be reduced in value to compensate, it doesn't change any of the inherent flaws of it. It just changes a bigger number based off of worthless, constantly created-and-destroyed money for a smaller number based off of worthless, constantly created-and-destroyed money.

    B. Relying on emeralds/dias/gold
    Gold doesn't have any major uses in-game, so it doesn't have any genuine value. I would also say you should generally only tie the economy to one resource, otherwise you end up with goods being artifically under or overpriced, as explained in my response to C.

    C. Relying on a mix of the two, whereby valuables are converted to a tangible money source
    (There are others, working with a headache atm, sorry)
    This would partially solve some of the problems. By allowing valuables to be turned into money, you give it a definite value. At the same time, it creates some issues. One, supply and demand. You don't necessarily want money to definitely equal a certain amount of valuables. You want it to shift and flow with the economy. After all, the trade in price could be severely under or overvalued.

    Let's say the true price of diamond to iron is 1 diamond to 10 iron or something. That's after months of trades and prices adjusting and people settling in the server. That's what people think it's worth in the absence of money, on average. Now, valuables are converted into money. However, there's a problem - 1 diamond makes $500, while 10 iron makes $1000. Suddenly it's not really worthwhile to give people iron for diamonds, because the value of iron is artificially inflated. Instead, I might sell the iron for $1000, and offer people $550 for diamonds. In addition, since it's much more cost-effective to sell iron for money, no one sells diamonds for money anymore, defeating the very purpose of selling valuables for money, since diamonds are the most valuable of all.

    Of course, if the reverse happens, it could be just as bad. If 1 diamond is worth $1000 and 10 iron is worth $500, suddenly iron is severely, artificially undervalued in the economy. It's not actually worth buying iron with a diamond unless they offer more than 20 per diamond - of course, at that point, it would be more efficient for them to just sell the iron. The diamond trade would suffer severely in turn, since no one would actually want to trade their diamonds for anything.

    Chestshop arguing
    Keep Chestshop. If we don't have portals, we need it. I am not going to spend half an hour walking across the map only to have the guy I want to trade with go offline.
    Last edited by Dr. Tobias Fünke; July 30, 2012 at 03:40 AM.
    You're forgetting, Lindsay, that as a psychiatrist, I was a professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world's first "analrapist".

  10. #10

    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Brilliantly stated Tobias Great points across the board.

  11. #11

    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Since gold has little use and it is rare I think the monetary system should be based on gold only. Let gold bars be convertable into money. Not like now where you get both money and the mineral.

  12. #12
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    A few points from the meeting if you're all interested:

    1. Using diamonds/emeralds and such to pay for chunks isn't coded in. It will be difficult to make that work, if not impossible. We pretty much need iconomy or some other Vault-compatible economy plugin.

    2. Those of you who are new have only experienced a mature, economically vibrant server. Those of you who were around at the start will remember that we had to make chunks cheaper because factions weren't generating a lot of money to start with. Making payments only for valuable ores might sound cool, but your faction will seriously struggle to claim chunks with only gold and diamond paying you.

    3. I can tell you right now we won't be doing any sort of resources to money trade in. GEDs a huge fan of the free market, and won't be artificially setting prices for anything.

  13. #13

    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    A few points from the meeting if you're all interested:


    2. Those of you who are new have only experienced a mature, economically vibrant server. Those of you who were around at the start will remember that we had to make chunks cheaper because factions weren't generating a lot of money to start with. Making payments only for valuable ores might sound cool, but your faction will seriously struggle to claim chunks with only gold and diamond paying you.

    3. I can tell you right now we won't be doing any sort of resources to money trade in. GEDs a huge fan of the free market, and won't be artificially setting prices for anything.
    2. You can set the prize of plots lower, or the value of gold higher.

    3. To me it sounds better with a monetary system based on a rare object - gold - than the process of mining (labour). Also the prize of plots currently seems to be artificially set

  14. #14
    Pyrate9999's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    keep the old method

  15. #15
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar Aetī Avēas!
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    A few points from the meeting if you're all interested:

    1. Using diamonds/emeralds and such to pay for chunks isn't coded in. It will be difficult to make that work, if not impossible. We pretty much need iconomy or some other Vault-compatible economy plugin.

    2. Those of you who are new have only experienced a mature, economically vibrant server. Those of you who were around at the start will remember that we had to make chunks cheaper because factions weren't generating a lot of money to start with. Making payments only for valuable ores might sound cool, but your faction will seriously struggle to claim chunks with only gold and diamond paying you.

    3. I can tell you right now we won't be doing any sort of resources to money trade in. GEDs a huge fan of the free market, and won't be artificially setting prices for anything.
    Yeah chunks used to be like 2500 a piece or somethng
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  16. #16
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Price of land is rather different to price of goods Marius, we can't do anything about land and use it as a money sink. Every online game needs a money sink, ours is land.

  17. #17
    ForteS's Avatar Need Hugz?
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    So to buy chunks you would still need iconomy? Why not to give a certain value to each ore? You need money (dollars) you grab your ores, go to a safe zone admin set up shop where you will have something like:

    GrnEyedDvl
    1
    S 1000
    Emerald

    GrnEyedDvl
    1
    S 750
    Diamond

    GrnEyedDvl
    1
    S 500
    Gold

    The sell values are just an example.

    This could be expanded to the entire economy, you need dollars you will go to that shop, that would work as a bank and exchange your various ores for money.

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  18. #18
    Pyrate9999's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Quote Originally Posted by ForteS View Post
    So to buy chunks you would still need iconomy? Why not to give a certain value to each ore? You need money (dollars) you grab your ores, go to a safe zone admin set up shop where you will have something like:

    GrnEyedDvl
    1
    S 1000
    Emerald

    GrnEyedDvl
    1
    S 750
    Diamond

    GrnEyedDvl
    1
    S 500
    Gold

    The sell values are just an example.

    This could be expanded to the entire economy, you need dollars you will go to that shop, that would work as a bank and exchange your various ores for money.
    People would make these Banks of their own in the factions. also, what would GED do with all the blocks?

  19. #19
    Caesar914's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    Price of land is rather different to price of goods Marius, we can't do anything about land and use it as a money sink. Every online game needs a money sink, ours is land.
    Ok, I think I'm understanding an underlying issue then. From your side you might feel like you've already had to lower the price of land and you want it to be expensive. But then I think for me the question is why? What's the point to having land so expensive if all it leads to is the need for larger incomes, which together does nothing but inflate the currency. That's why I'm saying maybe get rid of pay for common blocks and reduce the land cost, together it will cause some much needed deflation.
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  20. #20
    ForteS's Avatar Need Hugz?
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    Default Re: TWC PVP Economy Summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrate9999 View Post
    People would make these Banks of their own in the factions. also, what would GED do with all the blocks?
    Keep them like he does with the dollars I guess.

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