Faction - River Zora

[Duke Serkol]

All terrain types are currently being used and none of them can be replaced with water, not without sacrificing things like the Realm of Twilight

The Realm of Twilight is on the campaign map? Where?

The River Zora units don't actually teleport. What happens is the engine detects the "Summon River Zora" Unit in "X" Settlement, and then deletes it and spawns from a list of units as a predetermined location. As such this only works when something is created, it cannot be used to move any pre-existing units on the map from one location to another

Thought so

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

2) All terrain types are currently being used and none of them can be replaced with water, not without sacrificing things like the Realm of Twilight, Death Mountain volcanism, and other types of terrain I've added in. As you might have guessed, climates/terrain has a (surprise!) strict hard coded limit.

Oh come on! That is ridiculous. Why on earth or Hyrule would the developers hard code a terrain limit!? Curse you Medieval II! When these guys developed the engine, I suppose they didn't strive to make it in any way "kind" to modders.

[UndyingNephalim]

The Realm of Twilight is on the campaign map? Where?

A small tiny island tucked away at the northwest corner of the map. It needs to be there so the custom battle map shows up. All the custom battle maps are loaded from the campaign map and use the respective climate of their x and y coordinates.

Oh come on! That is ridiculous. Why on earth or Hyrule would the developers hard code a terrain limit!? Curse you Medieval II! When these guys developed the engine, I suppose they didn't strive to make it in any way "kind" to modders.

I don't think mod friendly was their intent, considering their model files are in a format that requires a homebrew program to decipher and convert to a model format recognized by other modeling programs. Creative Assembly has even said Rome 2 will be their first game they are making with modding in mind. Regardless, I do find the engine pretty sloppy even if it was not intended for modders.


Even if there were more terrain slots open, water would not work because the actual water tiles are based on height and not terrain. You could have any type of terrain but water only generates when the height is below zero. There's no way to get any terrain to look exactly like animated water either and no way to have a battle map on animated water because the environment that appears in a battle map is dependent on climate and height rather then terrain. If you have a battle map with height less then 0, every unit on the map dies. If you have a battle on a map with "replacement" water like terrain, the water will be completely static and look nothing like water. This is coming from the guy who got flying units to work: Naval battle are pretty much impossible in this engine for a staggering number of reasons.

Even if it was possible, I also have to look at it from a practical standpoint: Yes I could take some insane creative freedom and develop navies for all of the factions. I've already done some insane things with creative license, but boats just never felt right in Zelda to me. Look at the only two games of the Zelda series with ships: Windwaker and Phantom Hourglass. The only boats around are pirate ships and a few merchants. Pretty much every major civilization that could manufacture warships is gone. In every other Zelda game, there's never any mention of ships or a navy ever. There's not even a body of water large enough to support navies in any other Zelda game (except maybe Zelda 2). As far as I'm concerned, I've already taken crazy creative license even having a coastline that goes out to an ocean.

Also there's the simple fact I've always hated naval combat in every game with it ever made.

[Eldren]

My two cents on Nephs post. possible fixes to the problem{I know nothing of programing. but I am an Idea man, and can point out similarities, Etc, that may help others. I've given good Ideas to fiends and family. and I confident, I may be of help here. }
[QUOTE=UndyingNephalim;12198033]

Even if there were more terrain slots open, water would not work because the actual water tiles are based on height and not terrain. You could have any type of terrain but water only generates when the height is below zero. There's no way to get any terrain to look exactly like animated water either and no way to have a battle map on animated water because the environment that appears in a battle map is dependent on climate and height rather then terrain. If you have a battle map with height less then 0, every unit on the map dies. If you have a battle on a map with "replacement" water like terrain, the water will be completely static and look nothing like water. This is coming from the guy who got flying units to work: Naval battle are pretty much impossible in this engine for a staggering number of reasons.

[Even if there were more terrain slots open]

this is the biggest insure I think

[There's no way to get any terrain to look exactly like animated water]
[If you have a battle on a map with "replacement" water like terrain, the water will be completely static and look nothing like water.]

ever heard of the sea of grass. literally it looked like the sea. use foliage to mimic waves. so that salve the waves.{but lowest graphic settings would have the same Problem} the sea is not see throw at an angle, you have to look strait down to see under the water. so the river clear water would not apply there. solid texture tiles{or what ever we use} would work.

[the environment that appears in a battle map is dependent on climate and height rather then terrain. If you have a battle map with
height less then 0, every unit on the map dies.]

then just make the sea "height of 1" and all else "height of 2+"
one of the ideas, is have Navel units that are not "Navel unit program" it's actually. land units, and land, that look like and imitate the sea and ship. No Codes or programs that are the sea. don't deal with it at all.

Even if it was possible, I also have to look at it from a practical standpoint: Yes I could take some insane creative freedom and develop navies for all of the factions. I've already done some insane things with creative license, but boats just never felt right in Zelda to me. Look at the only two games of the Zelda series with ships: Windwaker and Phantom Hourglass. The only boats around are pirate ships and a few merchants. Pretty much every major civilization that could manufacture warships is gone. In every other Zelda game, there's never any mention of ships or a navy ever. There's not even a body of water large enough to support navies in any other Zelda game (except maybe Zelda 2). As far as I'm concerned, I've already taken crazy creative license even having a coastline that goes out to an ocean.

[Look at the only two games of the Zelda series with ships: Windwaker and Phantom Hourglass.]
not to mention SWS. with the same style.

[but boats just never felt right in Zelda to me.]
so show nintendo what it's so-post to be like. just what you said about "Hyrule: Total War (HTW) " it's supposed to be Epic, not child cartoonish, the last Zelda that did it epic was TP. when the Wii came out.

[there's never any mention of ships or a navy ever. There's not even a body of water large enough to support navies in any other Zelda game (except maybe Zelda 2)]
Um, Majora's mask. Gerudo pirates, there may be others to support navies.
also, all the games have Hyrule, in the middle of the continent. even in Hyrule: Total War.


[Pretty much every major civilization that could manufacture warships is gone.]
that's about right, but basic tech, doesn't die easily. every era on earth, had ships. or bouts.

Also there's the simple fact I've always hated naval combat in every game with it ever made.

the last major problem. but again. is Neph up for setting a new stander for sea warfare, for all games, like what he did for massive armies raging war acrossed Hyrule. he's one man, leading Idealists that have a dream. I personally, wanted to make this game, when I was in elementary school, by the name of War For Hyrule. with ALTTP graphics, Neph has Serpast My dream, in all qualities. I'm sure Neph can top Rome total War, in having fun with naval combat. If Neph does change his mind. it would main, that, he has made this Mod that much more epic, and has one more thing, to say to nintendo{+Others} that's how you do it.


[Quote]This is coming from the guy who got flying units to work[Quote]

how did you git them to work. ranged attack can go over walls. and flying units already go over units. so is there a maximum height to walls, Buildings, etc. for settlements. if you put one for there buildings. technetly flying units then should do the same as if flying over units. if its a matter of slop=less moment speeds, like making units run up hill. flying units should not git a penalty for that. if so, going up a wall at a angle of 90'degrease slop. would main -moment speeds. to Zero. at that point {I'm guessing}the units determine it is impossible. to travel that way. and in the Gerudo heights, they can't move on/in most of the map, and take long random paths, that in real like, any one could travel.

Again to all
{I know nothing of programing. but I am an Idea man, and can point out similarities, Etc, that may help others.

@ UndyingNephalim.
If I was of any help, I'm glade. if there is still problems. or {non of this is new to my, I've look in to them already} well PM me, for we don't off post on this "River Zora thread." any more.
If I'm a Bother. let me know. I don't like being annoying to people. thanks.

[UndyingNephalim]

ever heard of the sea of grass. literally it looked like the sea. use foliage to mimic waves. so that salve the waves.{but lowest graphic settings would have the same Problem} the sea is not see throw at an angle, you have to look strait down to see under the water. so the river clear water would not apply there. solid texture tiles{or what ever we use} would work.

The problem with this:

1) There's no way at all to simulate waves, it's not as simple as "replace the grass," as that would replace the grass everywhere in the game.

2) As you mentioned even if specific grass in specific maps could be replaced, there's no way to have translucent textures for water so you can see into the water. If that was the case Poes and other ghostly creatures would already be in the game. No matter what the water would look completely solid and funky.

then just make the sea "height of 1" and all else "height of 2+"
one of the ideas, is have Navel units that are not "Navel unit program" it's actually. land units, and land, that look like and imitate the sea and ship. No Codes or programs that are the sea. don't deal with it at all.

Again, there's no way to make it so only certain units can go on water and can't go on land (in this case having units stuck to specific heights, even more impossible.) Any unit in the game could then just walk into the "water" and vice versa. There's no way to separate them with an invisible boundary, it would look like a big black line with no coast at all.

Even if there were more terrain slots open

And then again there's this. I simply, simply will not sacrifice any of the climates I have to make room for an "ocean" type climate. I'd have to give up either the Realm of Twilight, Underground Subrosia, Ikana, and other things I have for something I do not even like at all.

I appreciate people being enthusiastic about navies but I'm honestly just simply not willing to investigate and put effort into it. I hate naval combat, I hate boats in Zelda, the ocean is nowhere near important in my mythos and storyline, it's just too much effort needed to include something I don't like while at the same time sacrificing things I'd much rather have.

[Eldren]

I git that your totally against Navel units, UndyingNephalim. and I agree with you that I would rather have [Realm of Twilight, Underground Subrosia, Ikana, and other things]

thanks for the feed back.

I do wish to quote "Avatar of the Ice Wolf" though
his "off the wall idea", is more sound, "for the IF Navel Idea."

My option may seem completely off the wall, but it is just a prototype suggestion. Seas... how about removing seas altogether and reskinning them with land that looks like water. That land can drastically reduce the movement speed for all but Zora, River Zora, and Lanayru, because Zora, Zola, and Lanayru generals will be given an ancillary that increases movespeed on that particular terrain type (if that is possible). Then, we can work with the terrain work, as Eldren put it, "battle maps that you can only fight in if your army is in a certain region." Again, prototype idea, feel free to contribute/criticize or whatever.

and place my post that was after.

@ Duke last post
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@ Avatar of the Ice Wolf last post

removing seas altogether and reskinning them with land that looks like water.

that's what I'm saying. but you salved some ishous i notest. the bouts troop transports, could also have an additional ancillary. that increses a few troops speed, to keep up with the fleet. but all ships could have another ancillary. that stops land armys from fight. so the piggyback idea could work.

ancillary for troop transport, if one of them dies. a random portion of your Land Army, that tagging along could, auto rebel. [meaning they died in battle or floating at sea.]

you could do this with all ships, by having a [in map screen] moral drop.

[deusvult6]

As a former Navy sailor, I have to say that real life naval combat is, in fact, a great deal more boring than any video game representation.

I'm sure it was different when it involved ramming two ships together and swarming over each other with an axe and a pistol while firing cannons into each other's faces at point blank range, but my crewmates and I always thought it was funny in a self-deprecating way that CoD (which, as over the top as it is, cannot compare to RL in terms of exhiliration) could make so many best sellers from the same thing over and over while any game that focused on naval warfare in any incarnation sucked abysmally (while drumming up the excitement and pace in an attempt to make it enticing).

So, if I feel the need for some Navy bad-assery (which I seldom do), I stick to movies rather than games.

[Adarken]

Anyone play a campaign with these guys? My attempt was a massive failure, I ran out of money and units and had to quit.

[Mahat]

Tried out of curiosity... If there is a special way to play them, it seems I didn't understand it. ^^'

I mean, from what I've seen, you can't even build temples in the conquered cities, so you are bound to take those massive religious damages to order, right? And how are you supposed to live off your pillages when pillaging cities does not seems to give you any rupees, or so few that it's laughtable? Lastly, you start with only 1000 rupees, which gets eaten by your soldiers before you even get the chance to take a city, so you don't have the money to build anything either way.

To summarise... I don't get it.

[SilverLich]

They're raiders, that's all I'm going to say without repeating what this page here says about the entire point of their playstyle.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...2#post12000452

[Mahat]

Well, I did read that before playing. I know what the River Zora are supposed to be. But that’s absolutly not what they ended up being in my hands. So, considering this game is in development, and that there might be a possibility that things aren’t working the way they are supposed to be… Here, I tried again, while taking note of what I did and how things turned up. Hope this can help to point out where I'm struggling.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Start: River Zora. Normal campaign. Normal Battle. Objectives: hold 35 regions.

Turn 1: Got 3 base infantry. Took undefended rebel settlement called “Fort of Wings”. Banged a few heads = 0 rupees. Started building “small supply lines” (troop production building) for 500 rupees. Had to lower taxes to the max due to religion messing up my order rating (can’t build any religious building myself). End of turn. Regions: 1. Rupees: 500.

Turn 2: Got 3 new armies, 1 general each. One to the west near hyrule, one far to the east, one in the center near my only town. Started siege of rebel settlement called “Nuun” with east army. West and central armies looking for new targets. Regions: 1. Rupees: 721

Turn 3: “Small supply lines” are ready in Fort of Wings. But not enough rupees to use it to recruit units or to build anything else because troops upkeep is killing my economy. West and Central armies still looking for targets. East army still sieging (ram not ready). Regions: 1 Rupees: 98

Turn 4: New general appeared near Nuun. Sent him to help with siege, then launched the attack. Took city with minimal losses. “Bang a few heads” = 0 rupees again. Same thing with “let them have it”. Even with low taxes, only 35% public order in that settlement due mainly to religion and distance from capital. Can’t build anything due to being in the red already. Central army found rebel target called “Mohl Dar”. West army found target called “Timberfell”. Beginning sieges. Regions: 2. Rupees: -525

Turn 5: Rioting in Nuun. No harm done. Can’t do anything to restore order: no money, and acces to no religious building either way. West army continue sieging Timberfell (ram not ready), central army attack “Mohl Dar” and take it with acceptable losses. Still no money from looting or killing everyone. Only 70% order with low taxes despite being right next to capital region. Still can’t do anything about it: in the red, access to no religious buildings of my own either way, yada yada… Regions: 3. Rupees: -1233

Turn 6: Rioting in Nuun again. Lost 18 soldiers and a general. Decided to abandon it as nothing can be done to keep it from defecting the next turn. East army starts looking for a new target closer to capital. West army takes Timberfell. Still no rupees from looting the city. +75% order with low tax: will be able to keep that one for now. Still in the red, still can’t build or recruit anything. Regions: 4. Rupees: -1300

Turn 7: Nuun rebelled. Labrynna took it immediately afterward, and them attacked my East Army. I won the battle, but took huge losses, and I’m now at war with them. Still in the red, must leave most of my remaining troops in my 3 cities to maintain order, can’t build or recruit anything… I decide to stop here: even if I did manage to get out of the red and to start recruiting troops to expand my little empire, I know I wouldn’t be able to keep those conquered towns for very long due to population growth and different religion messing my order rating. In those conditions, I don’t see how I could ever manage to hold 35 regions at the same time with the River Zora… And I’m only playing on normal.

So, yeah. Maybe the course of action I should take is obvious. Maybe I just don’t see what’s right under my nose. As things stands now, to me, they just seem to need some tweaking to actually become playable. So, if you, or anybody else, actually managed to win a campaign with the River Zora, I’ll be more than glad to stand corrected and to learn how to efficiently play them.

[Youital]

when i played as them my supposed "king" dude rebeled and took my entire eastern force on like the 5th turn while i sieged a city. so i think i am done with these guys for a while

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Hmm. My previous River Zora game crashed on turn 46 and the save became corrupted (RAGE!!). As such, I have restarted the campaign. I had 12 regions last time, but was fighting on too many fronts (Lizalfos, Tokay, Labrynna, Ordona, Kingdom of Hyrule, and Sheikah were all at war with me). So instead of leaving the King in the west and taking Hasanadorf like last time, I had him group up with the rest of my forces. As before, my main army focused on taking Labrynna out ASAP. Here is how the map looks at turn 9.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Currently, I hold Mohl Dar, Nuun, Symmetry, and Lynna City. I am also attacking Joogal and Orlara as you can tell by the image. Labrynna has no towns and 1 group with 3 units in it left. Here are some general tips for playing as these guys:

1. Above all else, do not hesitate. Pick a target and attack immediately. Be smart though. Unrest is a problem. Plan your attack and choose a town you want to serve as your capital (for me, this is Lynna city). It is a fair bet that you will be able to hit either the Lizalfos or Labrynna and kill them within the first few turns. Other races that are further from your spawn locations or are more spread out at start could be a problem. Do not use King Zorasef to attack the Gerudo, Ordona, or the Kingdom of Hyrule. That would be foolish.

2. I choose Labrynna as my first target for a few reasons. First, they are easy pickings early game. They have two towns, they do not have their ranged yet, and their melee is relatively weak. This is their most vulnerable point. Second, Baruda Kan spawns near Nuun while Sokuuf spawns closer to Mohl Dar. From these locations, you already have Labrynna trapped between your jaws. You don't have to reposition much, and thus can strike quicker. Next, there is room for expansion around Lynna city without much distance from the capital. Finally, you won't have to deal with an extra-large frontier bordered by many nations. Once the Tokay are secured, the west will be your main frontier.

3. Mercenaries. Hire them. In the first couple of turns, you will have a small amount of cash left to hire mercenaries. This will drain before turn 5, so hire quickly. 2 mercenaries can make a difference this early in the game. You'll get your money back once you start taking cities.

4. Know your weaknesses. For whatever reason, River Zora have awful morale, to an extent worse than Kokiri or Deku Scrubs. Beware of morale weapons and keep your general safe. The Manhunters you start with are spearmen on par with Mudmen of Faron, and thus will lose when in melee with light infantry. If you have ranged mercs, just hold the line with these guys. If not, surrounding the enemy is the best option. Raiders are your mainline melee, but have relatively low attack. Tokay Hunters look pretty good to me early game, since your starting melee won't be much more than a meatshield. Outrunners also serve in the same way as Tokay Hunters once you gain access to them. Finally, note that you have no diplomats. Be smart and do your negotiations when other factions' diplomats come to you, and don't be overly provacotive.

5. You will have to do as much as you can with an early blitz. Success or failure will generally be determined before turn 10. This will be followed by a period of slow growth, and then finally by stabilization. I will continue my campaign and see if there are any other tips I can share. If by some miracle I win, I'll let you guys know.

[Eldren]

The religious and order problem is something you should let the other factions handle for you. It is a problem early game, but as rival empires develop, they will build order structures which will allow you to use their own public order against them. Milk Bars, Gardens, even the walls themselves will improve public order. The only issue would be those settlements you take very early on before the other factions built them (River Zora are raiders. They make use of what they take, but do not build their own.)

1)River Zora do not build their own structures.
2)settlements you take very early
I can salve both of them.
Give the settlement to a different faction. Let them build some buildings then take them back. You've gained what you wanted and did not have to pay for the structures. If you give a settlement that they can't reach and you can locust swarm it at any time. As well as contain your new aquaiream till it grows. there shouldn't be much of a problem.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

@Eldren

You can't do that as River Zora do not get diplomats. Also, taking back cities you gave away diplomatically would cause you to lose a lot of global reputation.

The only way to get diplomats is if the Tokay contact you and you can get them to ally. The reputation problem would be a major inhibitor though.

[Mahat]

Well, that certainly was an interesting lesson. The guys are playable, and I stand corrected. You have my thanks.

(And now I'll have to actually play and win a campaign with them too, else I end up frustrated about the whole thing. Yeah, I'm a nasty piece of human being. )

[MoonlitVanguard]

i cant do it, I CANT!

Ive spent a long time on this campaign for zola and its been the most memorable for me so far but ive hit an absolutely unwinnable situation.

a 5 to one war. 5! Labrynna, Hyrule, Moblin, Ordonna, Kokiri, all of them hating only the venerable river raiders.

And this is after ive taken over the lizards, and ikana. outnumbered normally by an average of 4-1 and winning cant save me from the wealth of the western world.

They just have a birth rate and diplomatic immunity i do not. Having no commerce, no religion, and no diplomacy really makes this the hardest ive ever tried saving an doomed empire.

Makes me miss the days of the old crash bug for this faction. Back then we were true raiders, growing stronger with each conquest. A roaming warband pillaging and reaving where we pleased with no regard to borders. now look at us.

any.....tips on how to get gud?

[MoonlitVanguard]

Well, i did it. Disregard all that.



Gonna take a break from river zora for a while.

[Eldren]

Well, i did it. Disregard all that.



Gonna take a break from river zora for a while.

Did you use any mercs and/or npc factions?

[MoonlitVanguard]

Lots and lots and looooooooottttts of mercs, they were responsible for many strategic victories. Tokay hunters were the real stars,

javelins obliterated large heroes in the early game and have a special place in my heart for that. Garrisoning the northeast as far as

Horon and as far southwest to Moblin territory.


After taking out Labrynna and Lizalfols, Hyrule and Ordonna sent wave after wave to take me out. (Ikana and the Moblins sent petty

raids in comparison) In a daring raid after we both were exhausted in manpower until I found the recruitment places for Rouge Hylians,

Keatons, and Forest Thieves. Mustering up what i could i sent a large force of these sellout Hylians to raid their capital, sacking it for all

its riches. In a series of battles half won by these mercs, the Hylians were forced to retreat to colonies in misery mire.


Far far later in the great war against Lanrayru Province i took the lessons from the Hylians and applied it to these monsters who had

ate up the Gorons as well as the zora dominion, making them far richer than i could ever hope to be. After the battle lines were drawn

and they sent legions to the slaughter I took a gamble. Fully stacking one army and sending it through wizzrobe territory, my raiders

found the north coast largely undefended. We burned the cities and demolished the infrastructure, filling our coffers and relieving

pressure from the front as they tried to stop the slaughter. That is until i found the geru macemen. With their help i kept the north

weak enough to push the enemy deep into death mountain,starting a trenchwar. Eventually they broke out of attrition and then it was

on to fight the world who hated me so for doing this.