The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

[Pielstick]

That's fine. If you want less freedom that's not my problem.

A lot of people have a slave mentality and as a result want others to have a slave mentality too. I have a master of my destiny mentality. Not going to mesh.

This is exactly what I don't understand. I don't equate freedom with the ability to carry a lethal weapon that will allow me to kill anyone with a small movement of my index finger. Likewise I don't feel like owning a gun will make me the master of my own destiny.

Honestly there really are some pretty effed up thought processes going on with some people.



Maybe I really don't understand... I'm lucky enough to live in a pretty safe country where gun crime is uncommon. If some of you guys really do have the need to carry a gun to feel safe on your streets or in your homes then you must live is some pretty horrible places. I think I'll stick with my little island off of France, thank you very much, and heaven forbid my country ever gets to the point where people feel they need to arm themselves to stay safe.

[s.rwitt]

Astaroth:

Are you guys seriously still using the baseball bat=gun fallacy? Wow. What an idiotic post.

And of course you're not going to address what I said about you blatantly inventing things and trying to pass them off as fact without anything whatsoever to back it up, revealing just how little you actually know about the topic.


Alhoon:

That still counts as murder for me. Add it to the violent crimes.
Shooting someone dead, without trial, jury etc is not justice. Unless the robber was about to KILL the guy that shot him, that guy had no right to wipe the other one out, just to not lose his wallet. It's just not worth killing for

What? They were trying to jump the shooter, not rob him. As in three drunk people beating and stomping one person, and stopping only when they decide to. Self defense is not murder and this idea that you have an obligation not to harm the people trying to victimize you is insane.

[OCWife]

This is all Batman's fault. We should ban batman. The killer thought he was the Joker, clearly influenced by the Batman series. The Batman series killed those CO people. While we're at it, we should also ban all violent video games, such as TW series.

People don't kill people. Tools, video games, and entertainment media do.
I hate all guns, knives, baseball bats, sticks, rocks, pillows, gasoline, games, TV shows, movies, and books. They are all instruments of the devil that kill people.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Was that suppose to be some sort of characterization of anti-gun advocates who say guns kill and should be restricted?

Tools, Video games and entertainment media do not kill, I dont know where you got that idea. Your comparison is a failure.

[OCWife]

Was that suppose to be some sort of characterization of anti-gun advocates who say guns kill and should be restricted?

Tools, Video games and entertainment media do not kill, I dont know where you got that idea. Your comparison is a failure.

Yes they do, studies have shown that video gamers are 538% more likely to commit a violent crime.

[Vanoi]

Why do people honestly respond to OCWife? Its it not that obvious?

[Surgeon]

I dunno, he might be onto something. Breivik and the Columbine shooters both allegedly practiced with FPS games before their shootings

[OCWife]

I dunno, he might be onto something. Breivik and the Columbine shooters both allegedly practiced with FPS games before their shootings

Indeed! Did you know that video games are so effective that the U.S. Military uses them to train their troops? Video games are turning regular people into killing machines! I do not feel safe living in a society where average people are allowed access to video games. They should be restricted only for law enforcement and military use.

[MathiasOfAthens]

No, the argument is that guns are necessary to protect you from baseball bats and kitchen knives.

Get a baseball bat or a sword to protect yourself from people with bats and swords. Now if someone is trying to kill you with a bat you should protect yourself but for every responsible gun owner there is the greater risk you supply guns to criminals and accidental shootings.

For example some states have very laxed gun laws. I wouldnt be surprised if gangs or whatnot recruit people to buy them guns who dont have a criminal record or anything.

In Mississippi for example they only have 1 out of 10 laws enacted to stop illegal gun trafficking:

Ten Key State Laws That Curb Illegal Gun Trafficking

Mississippi has 1 of 10 laws, only law enacted:

• Allows Inspections of Gun Dealers

Laws not enacted that other states may have:

• Allows Criminal Penalties for Buying a Gun for Someone who Can't
• Allows Criminal Penalties for Buying a Gun with False Information
• Allows Criminal Penalties for Selling a Gun without a Proper Background Check
• Requires Background Checks for all Handgun Sales at Gun Shows
• Requires Purchase Permit for All Handgun Sales
• Grants Law Enforcement Discretion in Issuing Concealed Carry Permits
• Prohibits Violent Misdemeanor Criminals from Possessing Guns
• Requires Reporting Lost or Stolen Guns to Law Enforcement
• Allows Local Communities to Enact Gun Laws

Criminals don't follow the law, remember?

Except that is the point, some of them do follow the law to get guns, such as buying a gun when your not a criminal and then becoming one. As in the case of this thread, the guy in CO.

Anyway since the crime happened in CO lets get some further stats from the state.

Colorado has 4 of 10 laws:

• Requires Background Checks for all Handgun Sales at Gun Shows
• Allows Criminal Penalties for Buying a Gun with False Information
• Grants Law Enforcement Discretion in Issuing Concealed Carry Permits
• Allows Inspections of Gun Dealers

Laws not enacted:

• Allows Criminal Penalties for Buying a Gun for Someone who Can't
• Allows Criminal Penalties for Selling a Gun without a Proper Background Check
• Requires Purchase Permit for All Handgun Sales
• Prohibits Violent Misdemeanor Criminals from Possessing Guns
• Requires Reporting Lost or Stolen Guns to Law Enforcement
• Allows Local Communities to Enact Gun Laws

Colorado is a Net Exporter of gun crimes. About 690 guns used in crimes were trafficked out of colorado in 2009. While 347 guns used in crimes in Colorado were imported from other states.

22.9% of Colorado's Guns Have a Short Time-to-Crime. The percentage of guns recovered in a crime within two years of original sale — a strong indicator of gun trafficking. The national average is 22.6%.

Colorado's crime gun export rate:
13.7 guns exported per 100,000 inhabitants.

Most of the guns sold in 2009 that resulted in a crime were committed in California, for a total of 690 crimes, 129 were in CA with colorado guns.

California for instance has 8 out of 10 gun laws enacted but has a high rate of gun crimes. Most because of guns that were bought in other states. So it doesnt matter because criminals can buy guns legally in other states.

Top Suppliers of Guns Recovered in California Crimes:

• Arizona - 840
• Nevada - 525
• Texas - 332
• Oregon - 270
• Washington - 252

CA is a Net Importer of crime guns, where around 1442 guns were trafficked into the state in 2009.

Compared to Texas though its quite interesting because they have none of the 10 gun laws enacted:

Imported around 1,854 guns used in crimes in 2009.
Exported 2,240 guns bought in Texas and used in another state to commit a crime.

The data is almost equal which means to say that criminals can easily find a gun within their state as they can import one by having someone purchase one in a state with less gun restrictions.

CA has a lot of gun crimes, but 4,400 of them were committed with guns imported from other states. Compared to around 1,772 guns bought within the state and exported to other states.




Problem is I think a lot of these crimes could have been prevented if we attacked the root of the problem which seems to be easy trafficking of guns from one state to another. If there was a National system that had all these laws:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Allows Criminal Penalties for Buying a Gun for Someone who Can't
2. Allows Criminal Penalties for Buying a Gun with False Information
3. Allows Criminal Penalties for Selling a Gun without a Proper Background Check
4. Requires Background Checks for all Handgun Sales at Gun Shows
5. Requires Purchase Permit for All Handgun Sales
6. Grants Law Enforcement Discretion in Issuing Concealed Carry Permits
7. Prohibits Violent Misdemeanor Criminals from Possessing Guns
8. Requires Reporting Lost or Stolen Guns to Law Enforcement
9. Allows Local Communities to Enact Gun Laws
10. Allows Inspections of Gun Dealers

We might prevent a lot of crimes.

For instance, NY state has all the laws enacted but has a relatively high rate of crime in 2009 of 3,607 imported guns. but compared to how many guns they exported of 517 their gun laws actually had an impact. However, their laws couldnt do anything because criminals just bought guns in nearby states with less gun restrictions like PA and Florida.

[OCWife]

the root of the problem which seems to be easy trafficking of guns from one state to another.

That is not the root of the problem. People will find ways to kill each other with or without guns. If they want to kill each other, let them do it with guns, because guns are more accurate than other means that will cause more collateral damage. If you ban guns nationally, you may decrease the number of gun crimes, but the overall violent/death crimes will not decreased, it will just be shifted to other categories.

Banning guns may decrease gun crimes, but what's the point in that since it won't decrease crime overall?

If the Joker didn't spray the theatre with guns, what if he burned the place down while blocking the exits or blew up the place? Do you think he would've abandoned his plans without guns? No, he would alter it, and perhaps make it even more dangerous and kill more people. Congratulations, you eliminated a deadly gun crime, but you got a deadly arson in exchange.

[Holger Danske]

I dunno, he might be onto something. Breivik and the Columbine shooters both allegedly practiced with FPS games before their shootings

Any sane modern man in the western world has tried a FPS game. Your point here is?

Banning guns may decrease gun crimes, but what's the point in that since it won't decrease crime overall?

A lot less will die as a result of crimes?

[Blau&Gruen]

The drill court and extensive foot marches help a lot to help individuals that do not need to touch fire-weapons to come to the right insight. Even this method fails sometimes unfortunately.

[OCWife]

A lot less will die as a result of crimes?

Nope. Guns are really inefficient and expensive way of killing. There are easier, cheaper and more dangerous ways using regular household products.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Americans need guns let them have them.
Wish i had a few guns.

[MathiasOfAthens]

If you eliminate gun crimes you eliminate a lot of violent and senseless murders. You can kill a person with a gun from a farther distance away than you can with a knife or a bat. Your eliminate accidental discharges...

How the are guns an inefficient and expensive way to kill people? Yeah the gun is expensive but inefficient? Please. Have you tried using a knife? Oh your talking about poison? Yeah, problem is the maker can die from breathing in the fumes. He wont die from firing a gun.

[OCWife]

If you eliminate gun crimes you eliminate a lot of violent and senseless murders. You can kill a person with a gun from a farther distance away than you can with a knife or a bat. Your eliminate accidental discharges...

How the are guns an inefficient and expensive way to kill people? Yeah the gun is expensive but inefficient? Please. Have you tried using a knife? Oh your talking about poison? Yeah, problem is the maker can die from breathing in the fumes. He wont die from firing a gun.

You're not very innovative when it comes to killing, good for you.

Do you know why Americans had to innovate and change their tactics so much during the War on Terror? Because the terrorists figured out how to kill more effectively without guns while the Americans were still using traditional/conventional gun-tactics. Largely, the Americans had to stick with the gun-tactics because they have collateral damage to worry about, so they intentionally stuck with guns in order to kill less people. Of course, terrorists and criminals don't care about collateral damage (they may even want more of it), so they don't need guns as much.

[Astaroth]

Criminals don't follow the law, remember?

Criminals, if they really want it, are always going to be more well-armed than ordinary civilians. The answer to criminals having access to C4, RPGs and automatic rifles is not to give tanks and grenades to civilians, either, is it?

If criminals pose such a significant problem that ordinary citizens cannot (realistically, not talking about paranoia here) feel safe without a gun anymore, then the state/community/govt needs some serious reform. If a country or area is so dangerous that even the govt/police/military cannot protect you, then having your own 9mm isn't going to do or solve anything.

If it can protect you - even if not from every single incident that might potentially happen (not like guns could do that, someone else will always have a bigger gun or more friends with guns) - then why have guns yourself?

I don't know where you live. Where I live, an innocent kid was just shot two blocks away, walking home from school, and killed. 14th firearm related homicide in my city of 172,000 people, this year. We're on track to four times as many as last year.

So what is the solution? Give guns to teenage kids? Do you really think the killing could have been prevented if every adult was carrying a handgun?

If your city has such a problem with guns then the reasonable and logical solution would be for the POLICE (and the govt) try to go to the roots of the issue. And if they don't do a good job then the right way of action is to democratically show your disappointment with the govt and petition them for more safety measures.

[Bolkonsky]

People will kill each other, guns or no guns. I can't aptly defend myself from a baseball bat. That is why I have guns.

Sent from my SGH-T499

[Surgeon]

I once read a paper which suggests that the biggest determinant of crime rate in a population was its cultural diversity. You all know what we have to do.

Ban cultural diversity.

[Astaroth]

I once read a paper which suggests that you're just making up.