View Poll Results: What is our stance on gun control in general?

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  • No gun control whatsoever.

    35 8.20%
  • As little gun control as possible.

    73 17.10%
  • Strict gun control.

    143 33.49%
  • Somewhere in between.

    103 24.12%
  • Ban it all together.

    54 12.65%
  • Not sure.

    2 0.47%
  • Don't care.

    17 3.98%

Thread: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

  1. #2581
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Second Amendment says nothing about the kind of weapons citizens can possess.
    Exactly. So how can people claim they were supposed to be limited to muskets of that time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  2. #2582

    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Exactly. So how can people claim they were supposed to be limited to muskets of that time?
    They're not. They're merely using muskets and swords to point out that such a clause should be read with a modern context and that it shouldn't be read as if people have a right to own every single kind of weapon.
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  3. #2583
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Exactly. So how can people claim they were supposed to be limited to muskets of that time?
    Or how can you claim the founders would want people to have access to weapons you dont need. Machine guns, and I am going to now call semi-automatic rifles with 100 round drums machine guns, are prob not what the ing founders had in mind when they said people should have access to arms. Why the should modern society be dictated by a bunch of dead people who never envisioned machine guns?

    You can defend your home with handguns and shotguns. You dont need high capacity drums or automatics. And this argument the criminals will get the guns anyway well duh. Of course they will. But they get them now too. Illegally. The weapons are smuggled in from states with no gun restrictions or from Mexico. Or guns are smuggled into Mexico from Texas. And drug dealers will always have weapons because they need them to kill other drug dealers moving into their turf.

    But your right to own whatever weapon you like has unintended consequences the founders didnt ing think about. Like how sick s can get their hands on these legal guns and shoot and bunch of people dead. Aurora, Arizona, Sandy Hook, Portland, Vtech all ing legal firearms. The NRA answer to this was to make a list of lunatics. Brilliant answer. It wasnt to reform the mental health system that was raped by republicans or fund new mental healthcare programs. Nope he just wants to make a list of lunatics. No restrictions on hundred round drums. No restrictions on automatics. He would prob favour reductions on machine gun ownerships. And by Machine gun in this instance I am referring to guns like the M249.

    Hey but if you live in this guys state you can legally buy an M249 Saw:



    Wow imagine if the guy at Aurora had this LEGAL ing LMG. Would it really have matter if someone in the theatre was packing?

    You have to read everything in the constitution in a modern context. We have changed the constitution more than 24 times I believe. So the right to bear arms is not enshrined in some unchangeable constitution. Its just VERY VERY ing hard to change anything.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; January 10, 2013 at 01:00 PM.

  4. #2584
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Wow imagine if the guy at Aurora had this LEGAL ing LMG.
    Stop hyperventilating dude, AFAIK these automatic weapons are very expensive, require a special license from the ATF and can even be taken from one state to another without a a written authorization that take 6 month to process. You need to be a weekend warrior all white man to buy these or rent one at a range.

    Also what is wrong with making a list of lunatics or asking for psychiatric evaluation before buying a weapon ?

    We ask people if they use glasses for driving cars in some countries.
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  5. #2585

    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    The point is you can buy them. Why did that fly over your head?
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  6. #2586
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Or how can you claim the founders would want people to have access to weapons you dont need.
    Did i claim that? And the last part of that quote is your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Machine guns,
    Which people cannot buy. All machine guns sold now are not machine guns because they are not fully automatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    and I am going to now call semi-automatic rifles with 100 round drums machine guns, are prob not what the ing founders had in mind when they said people should have access to arms. Why the should modern society be dictated by a bunch of dead people who never envisioned machine guns?
    Your right. Lets get rid of the First Amendment too, because i don't want a bunch of old guy's ideas dictating my modern society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    You can defend your home with handguns and shotguns. You dont need high capacity drums or automatics. And this argument the criminals will get the guns anyway well duh. Of course they will. But they get them now too. Illegally. The weapons are smuggled in from states with no gun restrictions or from Mexico. Or guns are smuggled into Mexico from Texas. And drug dealers will always have weapons because they need them to kill other drug dealers moving into their turf.

    But your right to own whatever weapon you like has unintended consequences the founders didnt ing think about.
    Again, that argument is flawed and can be applied to other rights. Stop using it.


    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Like how sick s can get their hands on these legal guns and shoot and bunch of people dead. Aurora, Arizona, Sandy Hook, Portland, Vtech all ing legal firearms.
    And all statistically insignificant to the larger picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    The NRA answer to this was to make a list of lunatics. Brilliant answer. It wasnt to reform the mental health system that was raped by republicans or fund new mental healthcare programs. Nope he just wants to make a list of lunatics. No restrictions on hundred round drums. No restrictions on automatics. He would prob favour reductions on machine gun ownerships. And by Machine gun in this instance I am referring to guns like the M249.

    Hey but if you live in this guys state you can legally buy an M249 Saw:

    Did you also know that all M249 SAWs sold are semi-automatic? Why are you seirosuly ranting about a class of weapon that only causes 4% of all US homicides?

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    You have to read everything in the constitution in a modern context.
    Oh don't give me that . How to interpret the Constitution and its amendments are still not agreed on to this very day. What your interpretation might be, might not be my interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    We have changed the constitution more than 24 times I believe. So the right to bear arms is not enshrined in some unchangeable constitution.
    Neither is free speech, the right to trial by jury, the right to refuse quartering of troops, and every other amendment out there.
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  7. #2587
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Which people cannot buy. All machine guns sold now are not machine guns because they are not fully automatic.
    You can own a fully automatic weapon even in California, but it is nearly impossible.

    http://californianfatrust.com/what-n...in-california/

    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/FD030DWApp.pdf
    Last edited by I WUB PUGS; January 10, 2013 at 01:31 PM.

  8. #2588

    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    I don't see how a full auto would be more deadly in a rampage shooting than a semi, tbh.
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  9. #2589
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by I WUB PUGS View Post
    You can own a fully automatic weapon even in California, but it is nearly impossible.

    http://californianfatrust.com/what-n...in-california/

    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/FD030DWApp.pdf
    Yep, and they all have to have been made before 1986. They don't make automatic weapons for civilian sale anymore.
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  10. #2590
    I WUB PUGS's Avatar OOH KILL 'EM
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    I don't see how a full auto would be more deadly in a rampage shooting than a semi, tbh.
    I guess you could look at why we don't allow them for just anyone. You could start with why the NFA 1934 was even brought up.

    Before it passed, anyone could run around with a Tommy Gun or BAR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Yep, and they all have to have been made before 1986. They don't make automatic weapons for civilian sale anymore.
    Not in this country.........you can import weapons from abroad that were made from the start as fully auto. That's in the NFA. In case you didn't know most of our military grade MGs are all of Belgian design or at least they've been bought up by FN.
    Last edited by I WUB PUGS; January 10, 2013 at 01:38 PM.

  11. #2591
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Your right. Lets get rid of the First Amendment too, because i don't want a bunch of old guy's ideas dictating my modern society.
    Freedom of speech already has limitations to it... we are just asking for the same limitations to the right to bear arms. You should scream fire in a crowded theater because it will cause a panic and kill people. You should have the right to own machine guns or semi automatics because mass murders can also easily get ahold of them. The right to bear arms just not mean the right to bear ALL arms. So imo you fine with a shotgun at home.


    Again, that argument is flawed and can be applied to other rights. Stop using it.
    Let it be applied to other rights then. I doubt the country will vote to repeal the freedom of speech.

    And all statistically insignificant to the larger picture.
    Those mass-murders are insignificant?

    Did you also know that all M249 SAWs sold are semi-automatic? Why are you seirosuly ranting about a class of weapon that only causes 4% of all US homicides?
    Fact is it can be bought and I honestly ing doubt a semi-automatic M249 is any less dangerous than an automatic M249. Actually, a Semi is more powerful. Technically, its the bullet capacity and the rate of fire these weapons possess.

    Oh don't give me that . How to interpret the Constitution and its amendments are still not agreed on to this very day. What your interpretation might be, might not be my interpretation.
    Agreed. So lets stop imagining the founders opinion on muskets and swords should be set in stone. And what ever happened to Swords? Why isnt the NRA, besides being the National Rifle Association, supporting Americans right to own all types of arms like Swords?

    Neither is free speech, the right to trial by jury, the right to refuse quartering of troops, and every other amendment out there.
    Yeah I know... my point exactly. Everytime gun control is brought up the pro-gun crowd screams unconstitutional expletives. They did the same thing in the 1860s. And they lost.

    And Menelik there are lot of things wrong with advocating a list of lunatics. For one lunatics wont line up identifying themselves and two wouldnt it be better to advocate mental health reform so we find the people who need help and get them help before they go and kill people? Nope, prob not, lets just identify the sick people already identified and act like we did something good.

    Quote Originally Posted by I WUB PUGS View Post
    You can own a fully automatic weapon even in California, but it is nearly impossible.

    http://californianfatrust.com/what-n...in-california/

    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/FD030DWApp.pdf
    Then go to a state that has easier access and import to California without telling the authorities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    I don't see how a full auto would be more deadly in a rampage shooting than a semi, tbh.
    How about Aurora? The movie theater is a crowded space with a lot of people just sitting around in dense groups. A lot of rounds will miss and his the walls but a lot more will find very easy targets. You cant deny this.

    But I agree a semi-automatic has better accuracy but again it doesnt matter when you have a high rate of fire with hundreds of rounds.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; January 10, 2013 at 01:45 PM.

  12. #2592

    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Yep, and they all have to have been made before 1986. They don't make automatic weapons for civilian sale anymore.
    Which disproves your previous claim that they can not be bought by people.

    You can also seem to rent post-1986 fully-automatic guns...
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; January 10, 2013 at 01:51 PM.
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  13. #2593
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    OMFG another school shooting.



    And it was with a shotgun. Might of had something to do with 2 injured instead of 2 killed.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; January 10, 2013 at 01:50 PM.

  14. #2594

    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by I WUB PUGS View Post
    I guess you could look at why we don't allow them for just anyone. You could start with why the NFA 1934 was even brought up.

    Before it passed, anyone could run around with a Tommy Gun or BAR.
    Sure, but what difference would it make in a spree shooting? I don't know if it even affected the kill stats of gangsters in general. I've heard full-auto/burst fire on rifles is a waste of ammo and that precision shots with semi-auto is actually more deadly, so how would it really affect anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    How about Aurora? The movie theater is a crowded space with a lot of people just sitting around in dense groups. A lot of rounds will miss and his the walls but a lot more will find very easy targets. You cant deny this.

    But I agree a semi-automatic has better accuracy but again it doesnt matter when you have a high rate of fire with hundreds of rounds.
    That happened anyway. Fortunately he also happened to be a fool and got a 100-round mag which are notorious for jamming, and it jammed. In plenty of other shootings the perp used multiple magazines and reloaded when they ran out.
    Last edited by Surgeon; January 10, 2013 at 01:58 PM.
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  15. #2595
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by I WUB PUGS View Post
    You can own a fully automatic weapon even in California, but it is nearly impossible.

    http://californianfatrust.com/what-n...in-california/

    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/FD030DWApp.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    Sure, but what difference would it make in a spree shooting? I don't know if it even affected the kill stats of gangsters in general. I've heard full-auto/burst fire on rifles is a waste of ammo and that precision shots with semi-auto is actually more deadly, so how would it really affect anything?
    We are not really talking about gangsters shooting each other over turfs and drugs. Gun legislation should be aimed more at keeping guns out of sociopaths like the Aurora and Sandy hook shootings. An M249 would hit (wound or kill) at least 50% of the patrons in the Aurora theater.

  16. #2596
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by tarvu View Post
    You're right it is silly when someone uses the term the worst case scenario as describing how gun control would ruin the historic gun collecting community and civil war re-enactments when juxtaposed against the mass shootings which prompted the thread.

    On the other hand you could collect deactivated guns. I'm pretty sure most re-enactors in the civil war are not using authentic live firearms.
    Then why do you act as if Mass Shootings are a day to day occurrence? News Flash, they're not. Why is it when someone posts facts, and not something that leans either way no one responds or pays attention? Because they were proven wrong (this statement was aimed at both sides).

    And yes, they are live. They just don't load an ammunition.

    Also, Freedom does have a price. The price we pay for stuff like Freedom of Speech are groups and people like the KKK, and the price for being able to own weapons is people being murdered.

    PS: How many of you here actually know what the AR in AR-15 stands for? (Hint, it isn't Assault Rifle).
    Last edited by IlluminatiRex; January 10, 2013 at 02:07 PM.
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  17. #2597

    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    That shouldn't be an issue of gun legislature but legislature on handling mentally ill people. Spree shootings are rare as far as guns are concerned, they aren't frequent enough to justify infringing on millions of gun owners who do not misuse their weapons.

    Why would an M249 inherently hit more people? If he knew what he was doing I think he'd be just as effective with a semi as a machinegun.
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  18. #2598
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    That shouldn't be an issue of gun legislature but legislature on handling mentally ill people. Spree shootings are rare as far as guns are concerned, they aren't frequent enough to justify infringing on millions of gun owners who do not misuse their weapons.

    Why would an M249 inherently hit more people? If he knew what he was doing I think he'd be just as effective with a semi as a machinegun.
    In a crowded theater it is very hard to miss.

  19. #2599
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Freedom of speech already has limitations to it... we are just asking for the same limitations to the right to bear arms.
    The 2nd Amendment does have limitations. See National Firearms Act.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    You should scream fire in a crowded theater because it will cause a panic and kill people.
    You know you can do that right? Yelling fire in a crowded theater is perfectly legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    You should have the right to own machine guns or semi automatics because mass murders can also easily get ahold of them. The right to bear arms just not mean the right to bear ALL arms. So imo you fine with a shotgun at home.
    Again, rifles are not the problem. Remind me again what causes the majority of homicides in the US. Because it isn't rifles, by far.

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Let it be applied to other rights then. I doubt the country will vote to repeal the freedom of speech.
    Repeal? How about limit it until it becomes useless.


    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Those mass-murders are insignificant?
    To the larger picture of gun crime? Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Fact is it can be bought and I honestly ing doubt a semi-automatic M249 is any less dangerous than an automatic M249. Actually, a Semi is more powerful. Technically, its the bullet capacity and the rate of fire these weapons possess.
    Rate of fire is a non-issue with semi-auto m249 SAWs. They would be no different than any other rifle that uses a similar bullet.


    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Agreed. So lets stop imagining the founders opinion on muskets and swords should be set in stone. And what ever happened to Swords? Why isnt the NRA, besides being the National Rifle Association, supporting Americans right to own all types of arms like Swords?
    Because they are the National Rifle Association and not the National Arms Association?
    Quote Originally Posted by I WUB PUGS View Post
    Not in this country.........you can import weapons from abroad that were made from the start as fully auto. That's in the NFA. In case you didn't know most of our military grade MGs are all of Belgian design or at least they've been bought up by FN.
    Yes, but importing them has big restrictions. Importing them costs even more money and time and qualifications.

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-chapter-8.pdf

    With certain exceptions, NFA firearms may only be imported for the use of the United States or any
    State or possession or political subdivision thereof such as a law enforcement agency; for scientific or
    research purposes; solely for testing or use as a model by a registered manufacturer; or solely for use as
    a sample by a registered importer or registered dealer.
    142
    Importers may not import NFA firearms for
    stockpiling or warehousing them at their licensed premises for the purpose of filling future orders from
    qualifying agencies or dealers requesting sales samples. Imported NFA firearms may be stored in a
    Customs Bonded Warehouse (CBW) or a Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ). NFA firearms may only be
    withdrawn from these facilities to fill specifically approved purchase requests.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Which disproves your previous claim that they can not be bought by people.
    I was only half-wrong and forgot to mention people can get them if they were made before 1986 or by importing them.
    Last edited by Vanoi; January 10, 2013 at 02:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  20. #2600
    I WUB PUGS's Avatar OOH KILL 'EM
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    PS: How many of you here actually know what the AR in AR-15 stands for? (Hint, it isn't Assault Rifle).
    Wow, great addition to this thread.

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