View Poll Results: What is our stance on gun control in general?

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  • No gun control whatsoever.

    35 8.20%
  • As little gun control as possible.

    73 17.10%
  • Strict gun control.

    143 33.49%
  • Somewhere in between.

    103 24.12%
  • Ban it all together.

    54 12.65%
  • Not sure.

    2 0.47%
  • Don't care.

    17 3.98%
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Thread: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

  1. #3361
    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Of course criminals use illegal guns, they aren't idiots, at least not the most succesful ones. Why would they go through all kinds of hoops to obtain legal firearms that can easily be traced when they can buy quick and cheap at some dealer's?
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  2. #3362
    Vanoi's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    It would stop new supplies for illegal weapons.
    Except it wouldn't. An assault rifle ban would only target guns that are automatic. Legal automatic weapons don't cause any trouble. Its illegally converted semi-auto rifles that do.

    And the only way to stop this is a semi-auto rifle ban.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    You can't claim that there are zero shootings involving legal assault rifles as well.
    Oh i can, because there hasn't been any. Unless of course you know of one?
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Those who protect the right of terrorists to have Free Speech enable the bombings of innocents.

  3. #3363
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Except it wouldn't. An assault rifle ban would only target guns that are automatic. Legal automatic weapons don't cause any trouble. Its illegally converted semi-auto rifles that do.

    And the only way to stop this is a semi-auto rifle ban.
    It would. Not all of them but it would eliminate at least one source. The size of the source doesn't matter. It's a potential source if not an existing one.

    I'm all for a semi-automatic rifle ban.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Oh i can, because there hasn't been any. Unless of course you know of one?
    Already posted two and as long as you can find sources for both on how the guns were obtained or modified illegally you can't really claim that there are no shooting sprees involving any legal assault rifles.
    Last edited by Darth Red; January 24, 2013 at 02:56 PM. Reason: continuity
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  4. #3364
    Vanoi's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    It would. Not all of them but it would eliminate at least one source. The size of the source doesn't matter. It's a potential source if not an existing one.
    But automatic rifles aren't a source. Its semi-auto rifles. Derp.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    I'm all for a semi-automatic rifle ban.
    I'm not.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Already posted two
    You posted two incidents in which we cannot say a legal automatic assault rifle was used. Unless of course you have evidence that they were?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    and as long as you can find sources for both on how the guns were obtained or modified illegally you can't really claim that there are no shooting sprees involving any legal assault rifles.
    You don't get it do you? I don't need to prove they were illegally modified. i don't even need to prove how they got them. There is no evidence at all these were legal automatic assault rifles. None.

    Theres also no evidence what so ever the shooters had the NFA licenses to possess these guns in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Those who protect the right of terrorists to have Free Speech enable the bombings of innocents.

  5. #3365
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    But automatic rifles aren't a source. Its semi-auto rifles. Derp.
    It would. Not all of them but it would eliminate at least one source. The size of the source doesn't matter. It's a potential source if not an existing one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You posted two incidents in which we cannot say a legal automatic assault rifle was used. Unless of course you have evidence that they were?
    Nor you can say that they were illegal weapons. Hence, you can't claim that legal ones are not used at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You don't get it do you? I don't need to prove they were illegally modified. i don't even need to prove how they got them. There is no evidence at all these were legal automatic assault rifles. None.

    Theres also no evidence what so ever the shooters had the NFA licenses to possess these guns in the first place.
    I do get it. You're merely trying to utilize a selective use of facts. You need to prove that they were illegally modified if you're gonna claim that no legal such gun was used in a crime. There is no evidence that these guns were illegally modified.

    I don't know how many times we need to go over this for you to realize your double standards...
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  6. #3366
    Vanoi's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Nor you can say that they were illegal weapons.Hence, you can't claim that legal ones are not used at all.
    Until its been confirmed that the rifles used were completely legal and the shooters had the licenses to posses them, i very much still can make that claim.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    I do get it. You're merely trying to utilize a selective use of facts. You need to prove that they were illegally modified if you're gonna claim that no legal such gun was used in a crime. There is no evidence that these guns were illegally modified.
    You didn't read the links at all i posed? Do you realize the firearms could have very well been fully automatic and made before 1986, and yet they still be illegal? Do you know why? You would still need to register it with the ATF, and have the NFA license to possess them.

    And if these weapons were in fact legal fully automatic assault rifles then two things would be apparent:

    1. They would be registered with the ATF.

    2. the shooters would have a NFA license.

    How the hell would the ATF, who investigate the people who commit these shootings and how they obtained their weapons, miss these weapons being registered in their own damn data base?

    How would the ATF miss these shooters having an NFA license, since you have to go to the ATF to get one?

    Sorry, there is no evidence these rifles were legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    don't know how many times we need to go over this for you to realize your double standards...
    Its really not my fault you don't understand US law very much.
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Those who protect the right of terrorists to have Free Speech enable the bombings of innocents.

  7. #3367
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Until its been confirmed that the rifles used were completely legal and the shooters had the licenses to posses them, i very much still can make that claim.
    Nope, you can't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You didn't read the links at all i posed? Do you realize the firearms could have very well been fully automatic and made before 1986, and yet they still be illegal? Do you know why? You would still need to register it with the ATF, and have the NFA license to possess them.

    And if these weapons were in fact legal fully automatic assault rifles then two things would be apparent:

    1. They would be registered with the ATF.

    2. the shooters would have a NFA license.

    How the hell would the ATF, who investigate the people who commit these shootings and how they obtained their weapons, miss these weapons being registered in their own damn data base?

    How would the ATF miss these shooters having an NFA license, since you have to go to the ATF to get one?

    Sorry, there is no evidence these rifles were legal.
    The same way somehow they seem to miss them being illegally modified. There is no evidence that they were illegal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Its really not my fault you don't understand US law very much.
    I understand it all right. You're merely trying really hard not to admit your double standards.

    What you're doing here is quite stupid. You're deliberately applying double standards to win an argument. You're not really proving anything here. Go on with this petty tactic though. It's a free world.
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  8. #3368
    Gigantus's Avatar When I get old, I'm going to move in with my kids, hog the computer, pay no bills, eat all the food, trash the house, and when asked to clean, pitch a fit like it's killing me!
    Artifex

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    Default Re: The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

    This thread has become high maintenance and isn't going anywhere - closed.
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