View Poll Results: How is the unit balance?

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Thread: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

  1. #41
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    And perhaps update your guide as well...?
    Obviously but it's quite alot of work to make things easy to understand and all refined and cutie.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Some another questions/suggestions :
    -I've noticed that attack values and ranges of dart, javelin and throwing spear are very similar, I think too much, taking into account considerable difference in mass of these missiles. For ex. for throwing spears I suggest range of only 30 m (Roman pilum had 20-30 m range so It will be more fair) but 2 times higher attack than in case of darts.
    What units are you planing to arm with throwing spear? Why not for Sleaghadair or Uachdaran? They will be much better against infantry (like Tuathanach are), throwing spears before impact of shield walls was common tactic. At least they are descendants of Vikings...
    -shouldn't Scotish bodyguard and Wallace bodyguard be dismounted? In case of Wallace I'm not sure but Bruce in Bannockburn was fighting dismounted, in schiltrom squere. Are there any evidence that Wallace fought mounted?
    -I've seen spear_bonus_x for units without spears. Are you sure that this attribute work for non-spear units?
    Somewhere I've also found that mount effect doesn't work over 3 value.
    -I'm not sure but in XIII century sword still was quite elite weapon (but not as much as in earlier times).
    So maybe for commoners (like Gaisgeach) long knives or falchions will be more accurate than expensive swords?
    -I've noticed that it is something strange with 2 handed axemen fighting against Telderons or cavalry. If they are AI controled, some of them (quite a lot)don't end charge and run in place instead of fight. Is It possible to slove this bug?
    -and please, don't increase morale, they are fine now

  3. #43
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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    Some another questions/suggestions :
    -I've noticed that attack values and ranges of dart, javelin and throwing spear are very similar, I think too much, taking into account considerable difference in mass of these missiles. For ex. for throwing spears I suggest range of only 30 m (Roman pilum had 20-30 m range so It will be more fair) but 2 times higher attack than in case of darts.
    Has I said, I'll do a major revision on the guide and throwing weapons will be considered.

    What units are you planing to arm with throwing spear? Why not for Sleaghadair or Uachdaran? They will be much better against infantry (like Tuathanach are), throwing spears before impact of shield walls was common tactic. At least they are descendants of Vikings...
    Certain Irish and Welsh units will have this feature but not those from the above the reason why is mainly due to their usual tactics and unit balance as well.

    -shouldn't Scotish bodyguard and Wallace bodyguard be dismounted? In case of Wallace I'm not sure but Bruce in Bannockburn was fighting dismounted, in schiltrom squere. Are there any evidence that Wallace fought mounted?
    Several historical books represent Wallace mounted, Osprey book for example was illustrating Wallace mounted, speaking to his man prior the battle of Stirling Bridge.

    -I've seen spear_bonus_x for units without spears. Are you sure that this attribute work for non-spear units?
    Yes.

    Somewhere I've also found that mount effect doesn't work over 3 value.
    It does work above 3, simply take a look at the vanilla EDU and you will see for example a unit of javelinmen having +6 vs elephants.

    -I'm not sure but in XIII century sword still was quite elite weapon (but not as much as in earlier times).
    So maybe for commoners (like Gaisgeach) long knives or falchions will be more accurate than expensive swords?
    That is what we've done however the future guide will better distinguish the weapons.

    -I've noticed that it is something strange with 2 handed axemen fighting against Telderons or cavalry. If they are AI controled, some of them (quite a lot)don't end charge and run in place instead of fight. Is It possible to slove this bug?
    Not really, it is due to the animation unfortunately.

    -and please, don't increase morale, they are fine now
    The morale won't be really changed, even maybe a small decrease for the most elite ones (they rarely rout but even so, it may be very small change).

  4. #44
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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Certain Irish and Welsh units will have this feature but not those from the above the reason why is mainly due to their usual tactics and unit balance as well.
    What type of Irish/Welsh units? I mean I'm not talking about ''typical'' javelinmen units with quite long range, ''large'' amount of missiles (4-6) and skirmish mode. My suggestion is to create melee units with only 2, short range but very powerful throwing spears for nations of Viking ancestry. They will use It against charging enemy infantry (no skirmishing!) and just after fight in melee.
    If not sleaghadair, what unit will use throwing spears (not javelins)?
    You said tactic - but such tactic was typical for Vikings, main task of shield wall infantry (like Sleaghadair) was to defeat another shield wall, not to stop cavalry (which was rare in Viking warfare).
    What's more, only 2 volleys (with lesser accuracy couse they weren't as specialised as javelimen) will not massacre enemy infantry and It will compensate fact that Sleaghadair aren't very effective in melee.
    As I guess Sleaghadair will be one of the most numerous parts of Lordship army, Lordship also haven't got any cavalry so I think that It will be quite fair make them a bit better against enemy infantry.
    Uachdaran also can use this tactic (shield wall + throwing spears) while 2 handed axemen will be typical shock units.
    About Wallace: those images are pure imagination or based on facts?
    It does work above 3, simply take a look at the vanilla EDU and you will see for example a unit of javelinmen having +6 vs elephants.
    You're right, I didn't think about It.
    The morale won't be really changed, even maybe a small decrease for the most elite ones (they rarely rout but even so, it may be very small change).
    Good idea

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    What type of Irish/Welsh units? I mean I'm not talking about ''typical'' javelinmen units with quite long range, ''large'' amount of missiles (4-6) and skirmish mode. My suggestion is to create melee units with only 2, short range but very powerful throwing spears for nations of Viking ancestry. They will use It against charging enemy infantry (no skirmishing!) and just after fight in melee.
    If not sleaghadair, what unit will use throwing spears (not javelins)?
    From our references on the Hebrides, they weren't throwing a spear prior charging in melee however Welsh culture, favoring spear was doing that tactic and this will be planned.

    You said tactic - but such tactic was typical for Vikings, main task of shield wall infantry (like Sleaghadair) was to defeat another shield wall, not to stop cavalry (which was rare in Viking warfare).
    What's more, only 2 volleys (with lesser accuracy couse they weren't as specialised as javelimen) will not massacre enemy infantry and It will compensate fact that Sleaghadair aren't very effective in melee.
    I'm currently working on the unit guideline and the spearmen will be revised in addition to add the shield wall formation to them.

    As I guess Sleaghadair will be one of the most numerous parts of Lordship army, Lordship also haven't got any cavalry so I think that It will be quite fair make them a bit better against enemy infantry.
    Uachdaran also can use this tactic (shield wall + throwing spears) while 2 handed axemen will be typical shock units.
    the demo is an avant-goût of what you may have as armies however during the campaign, the Lordship for example will be able to get cavalry as mercenaries but even that, the Hebrides have already very strong light infantry; cheap and numerous.

    About Wallace: those images are pure imagination or based on facts?
    There's no imagination of whatsoever in WotW about unit concept, it's based on historical evidences and references and Wallace is not an exception. If you get access to Osprey books (because of copyright issues, we can't upload pictures from Osprey)related to the Scottish armies and wars, you will see Wallace as a knight and mounted; either on a barded horse or a plain horse. But here's one picture that give you an example of Wallace (the knight at your left in red is Wallace) http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/...cm4-572153.jpg

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Originally Posted by Wareg
    throwing spears before impact of shield walls was common tactic. At least they are descendants of Vikings...
    Source please?

    ~Wille
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    From our references on the Hebrides, they weren't throwing a spear prior charging in melee however Welsh culture, favoring spear was doing that tactic and this will be planned.
    Interesting, do you know If this tactic disappeared also in XIII century Scandynavian warfare?
    In wiki there is information that Gallowglass that one of axmen's ''squires'' was carrying his throwing spears- so It seems that at least sometimes Gallowglass used them.
    Regarding Wallace: I don't mean your imagination but imagination of Osprey artists
    That is what we've done however the future guide will better distinguish the weapons
    Ok, but will there be only distinction in statistics or also appearance? Because now Gaisgeach weapon look like sword...

    Source please?
    Sources? In every book/webpage/phorum about Viking/Anglo-Saxon tacitc I've read that throwing spears was something normal before impact. Look at Bayeux tapestry. This question suprised me, It's something like question of sources that mounted knights were using lances during charge (although I've seen opinion that cavalry couldn't charge ).
    Why did you ask, have you got evidence that It wasn't common tactic? Maybe have you got link to discussion about this theme?

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    Sources?
    Yes, in the name of Thucydides, my father. Think about why do you know what you already think you know "Come to think of it, how can I prove the claim that Im making?" We should never take refuge in the false security of consensus.

    But relax, Im in a general agreement regarding most of what you say. Throwing spears were natural in the midst of a shieldwall, but it's important to hold nuanced opinions. Is it right to give throwing spears to more LOI units then Tuathanach? Should nobility throw spears( Uachdaran)? What happends if I give throwing spears to units whose job is to absorbe a charging horse (Sleaghadair)?

    As a tad of pre-preview information for you, here is my inspiration for the next Orcadian (Orkney) javelinman, which rests inside the King's Mirror (didactic-philosophy):
    If you are fighting on foot in a land battle and are placed at the point of a wedge-shaped column, it is very important to watch the closed shield line in the first onset, lest it become disarranged or broken. Take heed never to bind the front edge of your shield under that of another. You must also be specially careful, when in the battle line, never to throw your spear, unless you have two, for in battle array on land one spear is more effective than two swords. But if the fight is on shipboard, select two spears which are not to be thrown, one with a shaft long enough to reach easily from ship to ship and one with a shorter shaft, which you will find particularly serviceable when you try to board the enemy's ship. Various kinds of darts should be kept on ships, both heavy javelins and lighter ones. Try to strike your opponent's shield with a heavy javelin, and if the shield glides aside, attack him with a light javelin, unless you are able to reach him with a long-shafted spear. Fight on sea as on land with an even temper and with proper strokes only; and never waste your weapons by hurling them to no purpose.

    Weapons of many sorts may be used to advantage on shipboard, which one has no occasion to use on land, except in a fortress or castle. Longhandled scythes and long-shafted broadaxes, "war-beams "and staff slings, darts,: and missiles of every sort are serviceable on ships. Crossbows and longbows are useful as well as all other forms of shooting weapons
    ; but coal and sulphur are, however, the most effective munitions of all that I have named. Caltrops cast in lead and good halberds are also effective weapons on shipboard. A tower joined to the mast* will be serviceable along with these and many other defenses, as is also a beam cloven into four parts and set with prongs of hard steel, which is drawn up against the mast. A "prow-boar": with an ironclad snout is also useful in naval battles. But it is well for men to be carefully trained in handling these before they have to use them; for one knows neither the time nor the hour when he shall have to make use of any particular kind of weapons. But take good heed to collect as many types of weapons as possible, while you still have no need of them; for it is always a distinction to have good weapons, and, furthermore, they are a good possession in times of necessity when one has to use them. For a ship's defense the following arrangement is necessary: it should be fortified strongly with beams and logs built up into a high rampart, through which there should be four openings, each so large and wide that one or two men in full armor can leap through them; but outside and along the rampart on both sides of the ship there should he laid a level walk of planks to stand upon. This breastwork must be firmly and carefully braced so that it cannot be shaken though one leaps violently upon it. Wide shields and chain mail of every sort are good defensive weapons on shipboard; the chief protection, however, is the gambison made of soft linen thoroughly blackened, good helmets, and low caps of steel. There are many other weapons that can be used in naval fights, but it seems needless to discuss more than those which I have now enumerated.
    Two last paragraphs of chapter 37. Duties, activities and entertainments of royal guardsmen.



    ~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; September 16, 2012 at 08:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    It will be very difficult to check all things you know, mainly if you found many opinions which confirm that thesis is true and none that negates It.
    As I've written, shieldwall spearmen (Sleaghadair) main job was not to abosorbe cavalry charge (cause cavalry wasn't very important in Sandinavian/Anglo-Saxon warfare) but to fight against another shield wall. Javelins signifitically increase chances of breaking enemy shieldwall.
    As I said, my suggestion was not typical javelinmen unit.
    I'm only interested if in XIII century Scandinavia such units still existed?
    Last edited by Wareg; September 16, 2012 at 04:12 PM.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    As I've written, shieldwall spearmen (Sleaghadair) main job was not to abosorbe cavalry charge (cause cavalry wasn't very important in Sandinavian/Anglo-Saxon warfare) but to fight against another shield wall. Javelins signifitically increase chances of breaking enemy shieldwall.
    A good point to make, wareg. I'm glad you mentioned it, because I'm of the same mentality as you. However, what do you do when reality can not be implemented into the medieval 2 total war engine? I have to make an accurate decision.

    I wont give spearmen darts, because it will make the AI unable to absorb charging cavalry effectively. That is why we have a separate unit to handle the act of throwing darts, Tuathanach. To strengthen the accuracy, I supply the following arguments regarding a shield wall.






    I have the theory that such " dart-unit" did exist, explained in detail. It seems to be quite more complicated then M2TW engine allow. I will begin to analyse the 3 levels of the shield wall:

    Front line
    The shield wall was made up of men with shields and usually short hand-weapons in front. The most disciplined men who would hold rank. If one man would run, the Wall of Shields would brake. These had wealth, ergo, would not suffice with poor standard of arms such as range-weapons.

    Support
    Right behind these front-line soldiers, you had the men with long range weapons (spears, dane-axes) who would assist as support over the front-line. The commoners, low-born freemen/yeomen. The mass. Usually thrusting, glaives, axe-spears and long axes for those of a higher standard.

    Range
    Behind the support were the range infantry. Everything from slingers, throwing spears, simple rocks as well as archers and crossbowmen, hurling missiles into the enemy mass. These were the men injured in combat, hunters, the young or the poor who could not afford armour, arms nor any form of cohesive training. the younger(by younger I don't mean order of birth but actually young lads with little battle experience)sons of the warriors in the front ranks were usually the 'skirmishers'. A 14 or 15 year old kid wasn't strong enough to be in the front few ranks but was strong enough to draw a bow or toss a dart. It gave them valuable experience in battle without putting them in a face to face fight against older, stronger veterans.

    The ranks of these young lads were usually sprinkled with skilled hunters and woodsmen as well as warriors whose past wounds would render them less useful in the front ranks or, in the case of the very few lucky ones, warriors who were past the age where being in the front ranks was a sound choice. This lent them a little backbone.

    Source: http://snl.no/fylking use google translate.

    Was I clear enough for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Have you got any evidence that men in first line of shield wall had mainly short weapons? As far I know short weapon was rather secondary, used after formations broke, mixed and distance was too short for primary weapon (spears, less often 2 handed axes).

    With another things I agree with you, Tuathanach as ''third line'' is good idea. I'm not sure about which weapon they should use - rather not lightest darts, so maybe medium javelins (as It is now) or heaviest throwing spears (this is my type), with short range and high power (as earlier Roman pilum)?

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    I just gave you my secondary source at the bottom of my last page.

    Tuathanachs function will be to hurl javelins over their own, and into the enemy. This will require some length and angle, but it's up to Polycarpe and the beta testers to decide game-play. If it's well argued, we will take your opinion into consideration.

    ~Wille
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    That short statement doesn't convince me. In most sources spears (both throwing and thrusting) were primary weapon, less often 2 handed axes. Theory with short weapon in first line seems to be doubtful.
    First line was best soldiers, well equpment and some of them had swords but rather as secondary weapon, look at Bayeux tapestry-most soldiers in tight formation (both first and back lines, both unarmoured and in mail armours) have spears + shields, there are many missiles in air, houscarls have 2 handed axes but-although most warriors have short weapons in sheaths-none of them is using them at the begining of the battle and only few in the end.

    There were typical thrusting or throwing separs in Viking warfare but many of spears were in the middle-you could use It according to situation. Also Norman cavalry ''lances'' could be used in couched style, over head style or even thrown. Such universal weapon should be relatively heavy. If you throw It, It should have considerable mass to pierce shield and make them useless (like pilum). Range In this case is less important cause such unit isn't typical skirmish unit, designed to ''shower'' enemy from safe distance and withdraw to forest or hills (like Welsh javelinmen), but ''third line'' unit, protected by shieldwall (first lines). So my suggestion is-shorter range, higher missle attack value, fewer ammo and no skirmish mode for Tauthanach comparing to ''typical'' skirmish javelinmen. Now, with large range, high missile attack value and 4 ammo per men, they are overpowered.

    I must say that many other things in game are really well balanced. LOI noblemen are weaker against cavalry or dismounted knights than Galloglaich but kill poor armoured infantry much quicker. Knights charge is very effective against weaker mounted units. Only way to defeat Telderons in melee is outflank them or use extremaly well armoured dismounted units. Morale is very important factor, most fearsome units have frighten_x ability. There are really many pros and only few disadvantages, I have played tens or even hundreds of battles with WOTW and I'm really scared what will happaned when you finish this mod

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    I think I am of the mind to agree with Wareg; using the Tuathanach as protecting infantry to be used behind the lines, with slightly shorter range but much higher power might be a good idea to make them unique from other faction "javelineers". Not only would they be devastating that way, but if they were used against other enemy infantry in a type of skirmish style they would be even more deadly. So I think he has a good idea

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    That short statement doesn't convince me. In most sources spears (both throwing and thrusting) were primary weapon, less often 2 handed axes. Theory with short weapon in first line seems to be doubtful.
    First line was best soldiers, well equpment and some of them had swords but rather as secondary weapon, look at Bayeux tapestry-most soldiers in tight formation (both first and back lines, both unarmoured and in mail armours) have spears + shields, there are many missiles in air, houscarls have 2 handed axes but-although most warriors have short weapons in sheaths-none of them is using them at the begining of the battle and only few in the end.
    Allow me to introduce my 2 cent on this matter:
    I wont deny the Bayeux tapestries are good reference but we have also to take into consideration those references are based on the 11th century, during the Norman conquest. Since that time, the feudal system, the army composition and equipment evolved and changed.

    One factor that changed is the acutal use of the spear. Back then in the 11th century, the rich mounted cavaliers (aka the noblemen really) were riding unarmoured mounts. Then a good trust into the mount would griefly injure the mount or even kill it (remember horses are fragile animals). In the 13th-14th century, the knights were equipping their mount with bards, which offer a great improvement onto the protection of their mount; padded coupled with mail would make the spear less effective unless by the kinetic force of a charging cavalier vs the spearman which is quite reflected as the Scots pikemen as example. Otherwise, a spear trust against a non-charging mount will be less successful if it has a bard as protection. (still able to injure the animal but the vital/most important body parts were protected by the bard).

    Not only that, the mail was a quite expensive piece of equipment but not as refined as in the 13-14th century; excellent vs slashing weapons but weak vs piercing attacks (spear notably) which is why spear was quite popular and used, even then, it is the cheapest and oldest weapon ever made by men. Again in the Bayeux, you will have many men having very poor protection compared to the 13th century due to the refinement of the armourmaking and protection advancement. Which make the piercing weapons slightly less effective.

    There were typical thrusting or throwing separs in Viking warfare but many of spears were in the middle-you could use It according to situation. Also Norman cavalry ''lances'' could be used in couched style, over head style or even thrown. Such universal weapon should be relatively heavy. If you throw It, It should have considerable mass to pierce shield and make them useless (like pilum). Range In this case is less important cause such unit isn't typical skirmish unit, designed to ''shower'' enemy from safe distance and withdraw to forest or hills (like Welsh javelinmen), but ''third line'' unit, protected by shieldwall (first lines). So my suggestion is-shorter range, higher missle attack value, fewer ammo and no skirmish mode for Tauthanach comparing to ''typical'' skirmish javelinmen. Now, with large range, high missile attack value and 4 ammo per men, they are overpowered.
    I will take this into consideration about the balance issue regarding the Tuathanach but some points about throwing weapons:

    • A typical javelinman would carry between 2 to 4 javelins.
    • Dependably on the type of javelin, you may have light javelins that can be thrown further but with less mass, therefore less impact effect by the kinematic (mass x acceleration = force).
    • Heavier javelins or spears are obviously heavier, hense impact on close range is quite devastating but due to his weight, range is decreased.
    • Soldiers that are carrying a heavy thrown weapon (such as a spear) would have only one projectile to throw due to the encumbrance as well weight of the weapon.
    • I will change the values of most weapons and revised the whole thing, that include the javelins.
    Regarding the Norman lances, this weapon change greatly in the 13th century which the knights are no longer able to throw it or charge with it in an overhead style as the Irish noblemen (which it will be represented for the Irish roster). They would use the lance in a couched stance.

    You were saying some posts before the knights were using the lance as their primary weapon. I will explain why we dont plan to use this:
    • Using a couched lance as footman weapon is indeed a good option to imitate a spear however they wont have really the opportunity to use it because of the poor mobility of the weapon compared to a sword for example.
    • The couched lance would be often broken after a charge, after all its a piece of wood coming in contact with a target with high velocity.
    • The game engine makes the weapon switch quite buggy, you may have experienced this in vanilla with pikemen, this bug would had happened as well with any two weapon switch.
    I must say that many other things in game are really well balanced. LOI noblemen are weaker against cavalry or dismounted knights than Galloglaich but kill poor armoured infantry much quicker. Knights charge is very effective against weaker mounted units. Only way to defeat Telderons in melee is outflank them or use extremaly well armoured dismounted units. Morale is very important factor, most fearsome units have frighten_x ability. There are really many pros and only few disadvantages, I have played tens or even hundreds of battles with WOTW and I'm really scared what will happaned when you finish this mod
    I am happy that there is many good things about my balance but I am a perfectionist and I am currently working on further balance the whole thing, it looks easy but balancing everything in an organized way is quite a pain and several hours of testing/working/evaluating, etc.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Polycarpe:
    Everything I've written in my last post is connected to LOI. What I see in LOI roster is almost typical XI century Viking or Anglo-Saxon army-housecarls in mail, mostly unarmoured men with shield and spear/short weapon, javelinmen (not common in rest Europe), archers... One significant difference comparing to warriors from Bayeux is padded armour in case of spearmen. This is why I'm comparing LOI army with army from Bayeux tapestry.
    I think that you are reffering to my post about spears/lances for dismounted French (or English, Italian or Austrian) knights. You are right that for XIII/early XIV century there is no sense to make such unit-simply knights didn't fight in that time dismounted in field battles. For sieges short weapon is much more handy.
    My suggestion is making such unit for second half of XIV century, for your next campaign (HYW). In sieges player still may use sergeants with shorter weapon.
    You said that barding limited importance of spear-but barding available for all mounted men-at-arms (as you can see also in your mod!-mounted sergeants). What's more I'm talking about armies from countries which main enemies in that time (second half of XIV) also fought dismounted! French and English in Poitiers, Italian in Arbedo or Austrian in Sempach fought dismounted with their lances against enemies also fighting on foot.
    Even 14th century armour wasn't completely resistant to strong thrust of 2 handed spear-this is why this weapon was still common in XIV warfare, even best armoured knights vs knights (look at links from my post in French research topic). Most soldiers had padded armour so spear was more deadly (thrusting weapon was best way to pierce padded armour).
    Of course spearmen/pikemen mixed with for ex. halberds were even more effective against well armoured enemy (both mounted and dismounted)-this is tactic of Swiss or Scots (your gisarme unit, too useless now for me). But in case of dismounted knights this was early XV century when poleaxe started to displace lances as primary weapon.

    About javelins:
    I know that there are some types of javelins (darts, javelins, throwing spears) from your guide.
    My suggestion was to add heaviest type for Tuathanach (now, If I'm not wrong they have medium javelin). And two projectiles (couse 1 is unfortunately impossible, If you add 1 ammo game will crush).

    Regarding Norman lance-I know, I use this example only to prove that Viking/Norman spear was very universal (and I only guess that that from 13th century LOI also).

    And once more about lances (as weapon of dosmounted knights): they had opportunity, read about battles I've mentioned and look at links in French research thread. It's not my fantasion, there are a lot evidences that this was one of most common dismounted knights weapon in second half of XIV century. Sarissa and pike also wasn't handy as sword-but very effective against enemy If you keep the formation.
    The couched lance would be often broken after a charge, after all its a piece of wood coming in contact with a target with high velocity.
    Pike or sarissa also. And not as high velocity, in infantry vs infantry impact.
    The game engine makes the weapon switch quite buggy, you may have experienced this in vanilla with pikemen, this bug would had happened as well with any two weapon switch.
    Unfortunately. This is why I'm not suggesting sword and pike unit but purely pike unit.
    I am happy that there is many good things about my balance but I am a perfectionist and I am currently working on further balance the whole thing, it looks easy but balancing everything in an organized way is quite a pain and several hours of testing/working/evaluating, etc.
    As I am, I also will try to help you with suggestions. I know that balancing isn't simple cause I also made some experiments with EDU. But testing your mod is really enjoyable thing

    Kjertesvein, If you don't mind I will answer you tomorrow.

    Please don't reply to this text yet.
    What do you mean?
    Last edited by Wareg; September 25, 2012 at 06:11 AM.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    That short statement doesn't convince me.
    I was sceptical of that source as well. I know what you mean, because it show no primary sources. On the other hand, the ethos is very high. The department of Norwegian Knowledge is behind it with highly respected and paid individuals editing it. If it's necciseary, those individuals might be contacted, as I've done so before. As a matter of fact, I'm in the process of doing so. StoreNorskeLeksikon.no ("The Great Norwegian Lexicon"). Btw, they are recognized as approved sources for University papers, which to me, is a sign of good credibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    In most sources spears (both throwing and thrusting) were primary weapon, less often 2 handed axes. Theory with short weapon in first line seems to be doubtful.
    First line was best soldiers, well equpment and some of them had swords but rather as secondary weapon, look at Bayeux tapestry-most soldiers in tight formation (both first and back lines, both unarmoured and in mail armours) have spears + shields, there are many missiles in air, houscarls have 2 handed axes but-although most warriors have short weapons in sheaths-none of them is using them at the begining of the battle and only few in the end.
    If it's available - I would like to see those "most sources", secondary or primary, aside from Bayeux tapestry.

    In Bayeux tepestry, as far as I can see, the saxon infantry in fighting against norman cavalry. This particular phenomenon is essential. Thus, it's highly probable that they would deploy mostly spears. I completly agree with that argument in and of it's self. Spears in frontline would also be the case in Battle of Stamfordbridge
    Harald Hardrådes saga (Hkr.) kap. 89. Originaltekst fra sagaen om Haraldz konungs harğráğa kap. 89: «Var şví svá fylkt, at konungr vissi, at riddarar váru vanir at ríğa at riğlum ok şegar aptr. Nú segir konungr, at hans sveit og jarls sveit skal şar fram ganga, sem mest şarf – ’en bogmenn várir skulu ok şar vera meğ oss, en şeir, er fremstir standa, skulu setja spjótshala sína í jorğina, en setja oddana fyrir brjóst riddurum, ef şeir ríğa at oss, en şeir, er næstir standa, seti şeir sína spjótsodda fyrir brjóst hestum şeira’».
    Thus the king ordered fylking, because he knew cavalry was used to attack small groups, then retreat back again. The king thus said, his own and the earls men ought to go forward were it was most needed, and bowmen too shall come with us. Those in the front line shall putt the butt end of the spear down in the earth and turn the head towards the chest of the rider, if they come to wards us. But those who stand in the second line ought to put the spear head to wards the horses.
    Saga of Harald Hardrada.

    On Stamford Bridge, Harald "Hardrada" Sigurdsson is forming a pentagon of straight shield walls (fylking), almost shiltron in shape. His bodyguard, that of the earl Tostig's bodyguard and the archers is thus commanded to act as rear-guard/reinforcement, located inside the center of the outer circle. With his light troops, Harald is clearly desperate here, in the face of armoured saxons, both mounted and on foot. He orders his levy to ready their spears for cavalry charges. A specific command not taken for granted by the 13th century Norse author; "the frontline men is ordered to plant their but end in the ground, while aiming the spear-head towards the incomming saxon cavalry man. The people on the second row have a duty to thrust their spearhead at the horse it's self."

    The Battle of Viborg, written by Saxo Grammaticus (a danish writer), also account for spears in the front line, targeting the incoming cavalry. In center however, was the slingers. Lots of casualties.
    Slaget om Viborg (danish)

    However, when it comes to the standard shield wall vs. shield wall. Rectangular in shape, then I'm convinced that the first line of men would consist of 1hand axes, seax or swords; short range weaponry. The argument goes as follows:

    The first men of the shield wall is essential, if it breaks, then everything collapses in on it's self. The frontline man require a soldier of experience and training; basically discipline. If you want quantity of disciplined norse soldiers, then the retinue of a Hauld farmer (minor nobility in all but name) or as the Gulating law puts it, "a well to do farmer", are the men for the job. This also implies to me the wealth of mail and sword/1hand-war-axe is within reach, generally speaking. These numerous and stout individuals is what I think of when looking at the first column of men.



    The two or three next ranks after the frontline, would be the shieldpushers/spearmen/2handed axemen who would utilize the length of their weapon as the range required of a good support . The mass / the main body.

    Structure: A leidangr was the levy army of Norway. Each harbour would gather 1 ship. A long-ship is made up of 40 men who are familiar with each other. Friends and family, familiar faces. By that I mean they came from one location, connected by a harbor. The Hauld farmer would be the dominant farmer of a community, and he had a retinue of "well to do farmers" to protect him. A shield wall squad consisted of 30 (5x6) men, while perhaps 10 were archers or logistic personel, resulting in 40 oarsmen for the long-ship. The first 5 men of the squad collumn would be represented by the Hauld's retinue.
    -Leidangen i Operativ Tjeneste (Ma, University of Bergen, Norway. 2005)
    -Hauld





    The tactical conclusion is as follows. If you are fighting infantry vs. infantry in a fylking (fylking/rectangular shieldwall), then short hand weaponry (based on SNL.no/fylking) is your choice of arms.

    If you are fighting cavalry (which were un-usual for the norseman), then spears was on the front line. The tactic was either squar block (2 x svinfylking ) or circular/pentagon in form ("krans", Harald Sigurdsson Saga, Stamford Bridge). Spears would also be used in infantry charges, more rightly so during a formation of a single Svinfylking (wedge shield wall/hedgehog). Preferebly down a slope towards the enemy, as if you were sitting on a horse with a spear, smashing as much mass into the enemy as possible.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Other times, instead of spears and shield, you would see 2 handed axes in the front of a charging svinfylking.




    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    There were typical thrusting or throwing separs in Viking warfare but many of spears were in the middle-you could use It according to situation. Also Norman cavalry ''lances'' could be used in couched style, over head style or even thrown. Such universal weapon should be relatively heavy. If you throw It, It should have considerable mass to pierce shield and make them useless (like pilum). Range In this case is less important cause such unit isn't typical skirmish unit, designed to ''shower'' enemy from safe distance and withdraw to forest or hills (like Welsh javelinmen), but ''third line'' unit, protected by shieldwall (first lines). So my suggestion is-shorter range, higher missle attack value, fewer ammo and no skirmish mode for Tauthanach comparing to ''typical'' skirmish javelinmen. Now, with large range, high missile attack value and 4 ammo per men, they are overpowered.
    From the King's Mirror (ca 1250), it seems as tho darts and spears are distinct differences in utility. Perhaps over centuries after viking warefare, the weapons have been specialized. The King's Mirror distinguish both light and heavy dars, as well as light and heavy spears; Weapons important at sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    I must say that many other things in game are really well balanced. LOI noblemen are weaker against cavalry or dismounted knights than Galloglaich but kill poor armoured infantry much quicker. Knights charge is very effective against weaker mounted units. Only way to defeat Telderons in melee is outflank them or use extremaly well armoured dismounted units. Morale is very important factor, most fearsome units have frighten_x ability. There are really many pros and only few disadvantages, I have played tens or even hundreds of battles with WOTW and I'm really scared what will happaned when you finish this mod
    Completly agree and I thank you for your consideration and testing.

    Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; September 26, 2012 at 08:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Polycarpe View Post
    [LIST][*]A typical javelinman would carry between 2 to 4 javelins.
    Does this mean javelin men in WotW will carry this many? I always tend not to use them because in-game the javelin men are often still throwing even after my archers are out of arrows. This has always bugged me about some other mods.

    Whether this has any historical accuarcy or not, the way I use javelin men(when I do) is to place them behind the lines in defence, and have them hurl missiles into the charging enemy and as they are in melee, to dwindle their force down to make things easier for my spearmen on the front line.

    In attack, I ussually send them around a flank with a "protector" unit that will engage anyone that tries to take them out. then my javeliners will weaken the flank so hopefully my infantry can break them and start closing in to the middle from the sides. Of course I'll always divert them if I need a cavalry unit taken care of.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18906
    There is discussion about shieldwall. In first post you can see your theory, but there are more posts supporting theory that men with different weapons in shieldwall were mixed and spears were most common as primary weapon. I really don't know which of these theories is better proven by primary sources, but this with spears as primary weapon seems to be more logical for me.

    You are right that most scenes from Bayeux tapestry is infantry vs cavalry. I agree with you that first line was composed of best warriors with best armours and some of them rich enough to have swords.
    But your theory is based on assumption that spears were inferior to swords in infantry vs infantry battle.
    And In this point I can't agree with you.
    If two fighting shieldwalls hold their formations spear is better weapon, simply couse of superior range.
    Large, tight formations were known earlier-for ex. Greek or Macedonian phalanx. In both cases spears were primary weapons, swords secondary. Same later pike squeres. Knights in battle of Sempach were wealthy enough to use swords, but they chose provisional (!) spears (shortened lances)-simply to outrange halberd armed Swiss. In case of Swiss in first lines there were also best armoured soldiers but even in battles against infantry they used long weapons (also frontal lines).
    If formation with first line armed with short weapons and supported by another ranks with long weapon was such good idea, why another phalanx-like formations did't use It?
    What's more, you have quoted some sources that confirmed that there were spearmen in first line of schiltrom, at least in battles against cavalry, and only one secondary source that in first line were warriors with short weapons, this make me even more sceptical.
    From the King's Mirror (ca 1250), it seems as tho darts and spears are distinct differences in utility. Perhaps over centuries after viking warefare, the weapons have been specialized. The King's Mirror distinguish both light and heavy dars, as well as light and heavy spears; Weapons important at sea.
    So If there was specialisation and darts/javelins in XIII century were ligher and more universal than earlier throwing spears, range and ammo of Tuathanach is fine but power of attack is too high and this make them overpowered (as weakest of ''three lines'' they should inflict lower casualties than for ex. spearmen).


    Whether this has any historical accuarcy or not, the way I use javelin men(when I do) is to place them behind the lines in defence, and have them hurl missiles into the charging enemy and as they are in melee, to dwindle their force down to make things easier for my spearmen on the front line.
    This is tactic which Kjertesvein described few posts ago

    Polycarpe, any progress in new balance?
    Last edited by Wareg; September 28, 2012 at 02:48 PM.

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    Default Re: [Fans' Opinion] Custom Battle Demo Unit Balance

    Long since I've been challanged like this on TWC, wareg, I thank your Socratic spirit.

    Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18906
    There is discussion about shieldwall. In first post you can see your theory, but there are more posts supporting theory that men with different weapons in shieldwall were mixed and spears were most common as primary weapon. I really don't know which of these theories is better proven by primary sources, but this with spears as primary weapon seems to be more logical for me.
    Please, I can't comment on the link of a debate. Firstly I'm unable to extract what you claim with your own mind, from many posters with many conflicting points to make. Secondly, I don't understand how quantity of opinions change you mind, because this is a matter of fact. This is the sole reason why anyone are restricted to post polls in the VV forum; consensus frankly is irrelevant. If ten people say something to me, that in and of it's self doesn't make it more right. If one person take up a primary source; archaeological find; makes a theory out of it; writes a walls of text who is repeatably challenged and formed, then it's superior, epidemiologically speaking.

    You are right that most scenes from Bayeux tapestry is infantry vs cavalry. I agree with you that first line was composed of best warriors with best armours and some of them rich enough to have swords.
    But your theory is based on assumption that spears were inferior to swords in infantry vs infantry battle.
    And In this point I can't agree with you.
    If two fighting shieldwalls hold their formations spear is better weapon, simply couse of superior range.
    As you may see, my theory has become more nuanced, thanks to you. Let's say I base the short weapon + shieldwall = upon context of the battle. Are you fighting horses, like Stamfordbridge, Hastings and Viborg? Are you charging down a slope in hedgehog formation, or cautiously approaching with a line of solidmen? Are you standing infront or are you supporting the push?

    Large, tight formations were known earlier-for ex. Greek or Macedonian phalanx. In both cases spears were primary weapons, swords secondary. Same later pike squeres. Knights in battle of Sempach were wealthy enough to use swords, but they chose provisional (!) spears (shortened lances)-simply to outrange halberd armed Swiss. In case of Swiss in first lines there were also best armoured soldiers but even in battles against infantry they used long weapons (also frontal lines).
    If formation with first line armed with short weapons and supported by another ranks with long weapon was such good idea, why another phalanx-like formations did't use It?
    The Macedonian/greek phalanx was inspired the roman testudo, which resembled the former in being tight. The Romans later inspired the Franks (Carolingians) who adopted the phalanx into a shield wall. the Franks is noted for their use of the short stabbing sword. The vikings/saxons then learned from their continental brethren, and it's quite logical, counting by that. (Early Carolingian Warfare: Prelude to Empire. By Bernard S. Bachrach, p. 97, Training for Infantry Phalanx)

    "
    In Charles Martel's famous victory at Poiters in 732, the early Carolingian infantry phalanx is described as "standing like a wall of ice." This phalanx was the core of the early Carolingian army for defencive battle in the field. The effect deployed of such a phalanx, as is well known from study of this formation in a variety of classical incarnations, require extencive training with the short thrusting sword and a deeply ingrained sense of discipline. Rhabanus Maurus's handbook based on Vegetius' De re Militari gives detailed attention to training in the use of the gladius by foot soldiers in the phalanx formation. Indeed, Rhabanus saw this short thrusting sword as the fundamental weapon for hand-to-hand combat when he wrote during the ninth century.

    [... p.88 §3] The short sword was traditionally used by the men fighting on foot in very close order, in the manner made famous by the Spartan phalanx.
    "

    What's more, you have quoted some sources that confirmed that there were spearmen in first line of schiltrom, at least in battles against cavalry, and only one secondary source that in first line were warriors with short weapons, this make me even more sceptical.
    I can't do anything about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    So If there was specialisation and darts/javelins in XIII century were ligher and more universal than earlier throwing spears, range and ammo of Tuathanach is fine but power of attack is too high and this make them overpowered (as weakest of ''three lines'' they should inflict lower casualties than for ex. spearmen).
    That I can't place much value on, all that I can say is that they were skilled to use both, for defferent purposes. Heavy is for deflecting a shield, while a shorter is thrown fast and accurate right afterwards.




    When is short hand weapon preferable in shield wall?

    If two fighting shieldwalls hold their formations spear is better weapon, simply couse of superior range.
    The essence of my argument is founded on the axiom that shieldwall was mainly about a pushing match - then the winner would be declared after that in some manner. This axiom is well explained by the hisotiran Stephen Pollington (The English Warrior), a summery of the shieldwall is the following:


    1. Preliminaries - The lines are drawn up and leaders make pre-battle inspirational speeches
    2. Advance to close quarters - a battle cry would be raised and one or both shieldwalls would advance
    3. Exchange missiles - both sides shoot arrows and throw javelins, axes and rocks to break the enemy's resolve
    4. Shield to shield - one or other side closes the short gap and attacks, using spears and swords, protecting themselves and pushing with shields to try and break the enemy line. If neither line broke, both sides would draw back to rest. More missiles would be exchanged then the two lines would close again. This would continue until one line broke through the other, perhaps aided by the death of a leader or capture of a banner.
    5. Rout and pursuit - One side would begin to give way. A final stand might be made by some, as at Maldon, but most would flee. The victors would pursue, killing all they could catch.

    Hitherto, I've assumed Pollington's theory of shield wall as an underlying axiom. It's required to see why I accept that generally speaking, short hand weaponry were preferred in the frontline (, but not required at all times by everyone).



    When two lines of men had closed in ( 4 ), all the hundreds/thousands of men are doing two things: Breaking up the opponents colossal wall by collective push, or individual killing of your opponent. The former notion would lead to a decisive win, highly desirable among the nobility who owned the levy. This is how I picture Pollington's theory around point 4:

    Right before the sides make contact, as they are closing in on each other, it might be possible for the all ranks to have spears, even the frontline men, simply because of reach. This is specially true if your wall have some speed and you are running down a hill. As you said, this does make sense.

    But then, the battle becomes a pushing match ( 4 ).

    Think of yourself as the person standing in the frontline. You are pushing and pushing your shield against the enemy wall, and so is everyone else doing. The family to your sides, and the friends behind you in your back. An immense pressure ensue, adrenaline is going out of your control, but your instinctual training and sense of honor keeps you firm. You look over your shield and the first thing that hit's you is the horrible human breath of a viking thegn. "Excuse me mister viking - When was the last time you had your teeth brushed?" ( he he ) Any way, he is very close, and you want to kill him his as quickly as possible. You take out your short weapon (seax, shortaxe or sword) and cut his throat/hack his legs. Boom, he falls, and the now vacuous part of the wall is filled with intimidation. Now is your chance for your squad to seize the day and your pushing gives way!

    Alternatively, I stand right behind you, with my shield pushing in your back. I glance one enemy diagonally opposed to you. I have my spear ready overarm, and he is ignorant of his exposed side. Thus, I send my spear, like a stick on a pool-table, right in his face. BAM, his face is gushing out blood. I could do this, because the range was good enough in contrast with the length of my weapon.


    The blue army have met the red army in a pushing match. A blue frontline man draws his seax, and slits the throat of the enemy frontline man. Alternatively, the first blue support stabs with his 2 m. long spear at the viking thegn. wareg, is it possible to understand why a short weapon would be used in the front row? You don't have to agree with the theory, I just want you to understand why I say it.

    Sum/FAQs

    Why is it advantages to have spears when in the process of making contact? Because of the range, mass and speed is preferable to survive - Like a couched lance; first contact. This is backed up by the King's Mirror [http://www.leidang.svartkrutt.net/#fnref:82] "when in an advancing Svinfylking, it's preferable to use spears."

    Why a shield wall formation? 1.) Because it protected against arrows, in the right circumstances. 2.) Moral unity: You won't flee when you family and friends are standing right next to you. If you ran away from your honor, where would you then call home? 3.) Intimidating for horses. Horses are not suicidal, and wont blindly throw them self into a a wall of rock either.

    Why a pushing match? Because they were fighting as a block of men, if one would route, then it would ricochet across the army with direct effect.

    Why is it advantages to have shorter weapons as front line man (during pushing matches)? Because mobility of a seax is superior in the confined space you have available. Swiftness of the attack it's self. The range required of your tool is optimal.





    Conclusion:

    All in all wareg, if we can't find anything more substantial then what we got now, I will say the following: We are debating millennium of warfare in northern Europe: I, from high medieval period, you from the dark ages. Battles were few, there was no standardization of array tactics pre-planned nor "Swordsmen in front, spearmen in the back" order, like a professional/imperial army, but instead sprinkles of squads who trained isolated: "If you wareg have spear and occupy them, and Kjertesvein have sword, then we work together to produce the best outcome right there", regardless of our position and limited war experience.
    Personally, I will try to contact SNL.no, find the author of the fylking article. I will also find a couple of Ma. of History papers regarding this subject. Anything else seems to lead to speculation of what could be the case, when I'm very sure this has been argued deeper in scholarly circles before. You are off course free to debate this further if you are unable to see the point that I try to make.

    Secondly, I'm very much interested to really understand how you portrait your army formation to be. I've tried as best as I can now to present my army, based upon Pollington's theory, your theory of reach and SNL.no theory of short hand weapon. Both by text and illustration. I would very much like to see you do the same.


    EDIT: btw, looking back at my picutre, I'm an artist. I should clearly be Lord Hamilton's successor.

    ~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; September 29, 2012 at 11:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

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