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Thread: General Discussion, Announcements

  1. #61

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    Earlier I thought of comparing Ghirahim to what Onox and the Deku Tree were, I was proven right in the aspect, what I didn't expect was was the fact that he and Fi were going to be everything those two aren't and more.

  2. #62

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    stunning models for those guys Neph
    I shall consume... consume everything

  3. #63

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    THIS IS EPIC!!!! Fi and Girahim look so cool! I wonder when the patch will come out.

  4. #64

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    Very impressive, they both definitely look fast and lethal!

    I think Fi is the one that turned out better though. I'm not absolutely certain but I believe what seems slightly off about Ghirahim is the lenght of his cape-spikes (not sure how to call them). With Fi's cape, it's pretty much arms lenght, but Ghirahim's almost twice that. So perhaps it would help to shorten them a bit and possibly make them wider at the shoulder. With Fi there's always the impression that she's hiding something under there... arms, that is, but with Ghirahim it's pretty clear that there's nothing there. And I know that in this case there IS nothing there, but the illusion (or doubt) helps Fi, I think.
    He may also be floating a little too high, but if you reduce the lenght of the cape, changing that would probably naturally come with it.

    In any case, wonderful work as always!

  5. #65
    paradamed's Avatar Praepositus
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    Great video, Neph. As always, top quality models and animations. Looking forward to the new version. + rep!

  6. #66
    zacen299's Avatar Senator
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    Two thing I'm curious about. For how Ghirahim and Fi work did you do the same thing they did in Third Age Total War and make them elephants (except in this case by the looks of it also making their attacks ridiculously OP) and second how will they be gotten? By event I assume but have you decided how to trigger it?

  7. #67
    UndyingNephalim's Avatar Primicerius
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    Redesigns

    How does one go about taking two characters they dislike and shaping them into something convincing? It's a matter of identifying the good traits the characters do have, and then pinpointing what makes them falter on their way to become a convincing character. I have done this several times for various units in this mod, but the characters of Ghirahim and Fi were a great challenge. So then lets start with Ghirahim.

    Ghirahim




    One of the main antagonists of Skyward Sword, Ghirahim was a mixed bag of good creepy ideas and stereotypically cliche anime traits. He is similar to a previous Zelda villain, Vaati, in that he is more about vanity and style over actual substance and accomplishment. So then, let's break down the traits of Ghirahim:

    Good Traits:
    - He is effectively creepy, particularly in the way he moves.
    - He displays some semblance of ability and potential to overpower competition.

    Bad Traits:
    - He is utterly incompetent, failing to use his ability to overcome what is a ridiculously simple task
    - His physical appearance is an amalgamation of various overused anime tropes: Emo styled hair that covers one eye, androgynous and effeminate body. His appearance is specifically designed to generate a fangirl following rather then reflect a convince shadow archetype.

    With these noted, I could focus on expanding his positive traits and getting rid of his negative ones. I started with appearance. For the first few moments Ghirahim is introduced in Skyward Sword, he comes off as a creepy rapist because of his movements and mannerism. After several moments of dealing with this man though, his creep factor goes out the window and he's reduced to a Team Rocket villain. I had to make him a little more imposing: getting rid of some of his human features such as pupils was a start. Changing his cliche emo haircut into a more otherworldly means of covering a damaged eye was another. Making him taller, even thinner, and androgynous in a creepy inhuman way rather then bishi bait was yet another change. I imagined turning his cape into something that constantly leaked blood would help greatly. However, the engine can't generate such an effect, so I'd just have to rely on him becoming blood soaked after a few kills.



    Another important change was getting rid of his arms to help him and Fi blend better. It really made no sense to me that this sword spirit could magically change his physical appearance and Fi could not. Considering both Ghirahim and Fi were designed as machines with a single purpose, it would be highly unlikely that the designer would give them the extraneous ability to assume a form less practical to their function.



    More important then his appearance though was the way Ghirahim behaved. He could have been a convincing villain in Skyward Sword even if he looked like a wannabe Sephiroth. Unfortunately, his incompetence and uncanny ability to constantly drop the ball made him little more then a door to push open. In Hyrule: Total War Ghirahim retains his quasi flamboyant homoerotic personalty, but never falters to dispose of his target. Instead of "beating (his enemy) within an inch of death," he methodically chops off the heads of hundreds upon hundreds of soldiers without remorse or a second thought. He not only can talk himself into being a threat, he can actually prove his legitimacy as a threat and act on it.




    Fi



    Unlike Ghirahim, there actually were a lot of features about Fi I did like. I appreciated her cold and mechanical nature, and the introduction of harder science fiction as an explanation to magic in the Zelda series (something I've occasionally done myself in my work). She nails the role of being a machine designed for a single purpose far better then Ghirahim, but this also leads to other problems with the character that we'll point out.

    Good Traits:
    - Mechanical personality is consistent and never breaks her character.
    - Appearance reflects intended purpose rather then gathering a bishi fanbase.

    Bad Traits:
    - Performs extraneous actions completely contradictory to her mechanical personality, such as random dancing.
    - Fails to develop a character arc despite claiming to have the ability to learn emotions and then being exposed to emotional stimuli.

    So then how does one go about fixing Fi's appearance? I actually thought her appearance was quite fine and I only made minor color adjustments, in addition to the collar. Most of Fi's differences in Hyrule Total War are reflected in the way she acts and reacts to her changing situation.



    In Skyward Sword Fi danced. No explanation was ever given as to why a completely mechanical character would suddenly break out into ballet. It's like giving a toaster the ability to sing: it's completely unessential and contradicts the nature of the toaster. So then the obvious solutions were to either get rid of the dancing completely, or give an explanation as to why this machine was given the ability to perform ballet in the first place. The solution was simple: Dancing can also be used to augment a fighting style, particular those that require flow and movement to function. And thus Fi dances as a means of combat rather then as a random goofy trait to make young kids giggle at the funny lady who is randomly trying to look cute.





    And there you have it, two characters redesigned and tossed into a bloodbath.




  8. #68
    Emrys's Avatar Primicerius
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    I say! Jolly good show eh wot wot!

  9. #69

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    Well fi actually does have arms, she just doesn't show them ingame
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Other than that, you've really thought about this well, and I'm more than glad with the outcome.
    The only thing is that Ghirahim's animation looks a bit weird in the trailer when he attacks

  10. #70

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    Actually Fi does break her mechanical personality.

    If Link asks a really stupid question (like if the Kikwi is Zelda in the early game), Fi will give an incredibly smartass response.

  11. #71

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    What faction would they belong too though? I could understand Fi in Fairies or Tarm, because of her look. But what abut Ghirahim? I could see him in the Gerudo Faction, maybe Ganondorfs side-kick, but really that's sitting on a thin-line. Would they spark there own faction? Ghirahim in a 'Demon' faction and Fi in a sage(?) faction?

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by GaroMaster View Post
    What faction would they belong too though? I could understand Fi in Fairies or Tarm, because of her look. But what abut Ghirahim? I could see him in the Gerudo Faction, maybe Ganondorfs side-kick, but really that's sitting on a thin-line. Would they spark there own faction? Ghirahim in a 'Demon' faction and Fi in a sage(?) faction?
    I think they'll be mercenary heroes, with Fi being recruitable by factions who support the godesses or have Link, and Ghirahim recruitable by those who are at war with the faction that has Link
    I shall consume... consume everything

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by nintendo64isking View Post
    I think they'll be mercenary heroes, with Fi being recruitable by factions who support the godesses or have Link, and Ghirahim recruitable by those who are at war with the faction that has Link

    Yea, that makes most sense. Thanks

  14. #74
    zacen299's Avatar Senator
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmNotShazam View Post
    Actually Fi does break her mechanical personality.

    If Link asks a really stupid question (like if the Kikwi is Zelda in the early game), Fi will give an incredibly smartass response.
    Not even that she is sad at the end of the game. I think it's moreso she CHOOSES to act mechanical.

  15. #75
    UndyingNephalim's Avatar Primicerius
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    Many unit entries and pictures have been updated. Check out the list here and visit their thread in the Development section to see more info and images:

    Gerudo:
    Dancers
    Bronze Knuckle
    Iron Knuckle

    Goron:
    Bomb Platform
    Goron Merchant

    Zora:
    Mage Spire
    Zora Ambassador
    Telara

    Kokiri:
    Explorer
    Mido
    Great Deku Tree

    Gohma:
    Tank Gohma
    Trap Door Gohma

    Ordona Province:
    Ordona Salesmen
    Mayor Bo

    Lanayru Province:
    Aydia

    Deku Tribes:
    Deku Baba Patch
    Business Scrub

    Moblins:

    Forest Blins

    Lizalfos:
    Neck-Slicer

    Labrynna:
    Expeditionary

    Fairies of Tarm:
    Perception Ward

    Stalfos:
    Fallen Skull Kids
    Stalfos Lizal

    Sheikah:
    Master Spy
    Master Assassin

    Kingdom of Ikana:
    Battle Chariots
    Hollow Knights

  16. #76

    Default Re: Announcements

    Woah, lots of new stuff to comment on!

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Gerudo:
    Dancers
    Bronze Knuckle
    Iron Knuckle
    Awesome...!

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Goron:
    Bomb Platform
    Goron Merchant
    I like the idea of the bomb platform... the merchant needs a large hat though

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Zora:
    Mage Spire
    Zora Ambassador
    Ambassador? Does this mean you got the ambassador agent type to work? Or ahve you decided not to make a separate type for them and it's a regular diplomat?

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Kokiri:
    Explorer
    Mido
    WTF brown haired Mido?
    I can safely say I didn't expect that.

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Gohma:
    Tank Gohma
    Trap Door Gohma
    Love the trap door... one can never have too much security, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Deku Tribes:
    Deku Baba Patch
    Business Scrub
    Yaaaah
    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Moblins:
    Forest Blins
    They're here!!!

    ...mh, the model looks good, but at this angle and size I can't make out much of the face behind that helmet. Can you show another shot that lets us see it better? (Or, if you made it, what the face under the helmet looks like?)

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Stalfos:
    Fallen Skull Kids
    Stalfos Lizal
    Suitably creepy
    Though wouldn't either StaLizalfos or LizaStalfos make more sense as a name?

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Sheikah:
    Master Spy
    Master Assassin
    Mh... we really need more variety in the Sheikah models. There's only so many ways Sheikh's outfit can be enriched before they all start looking the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Kingdom of Ikana:
    Battle Chariots
    Hollow Knights
    Are the hollow knights based on something from MM? Or an original idea?

    All in all, great update!

  17. #77
    UndyingNephalim's Avatar Primicerius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Serkol View Post

    Ambassador? Does this mean you got the ambassador agent type to work? Or ahve you decided not to make a separate type for them and it's a regular diplomat?
    They are Diplomats. The entire Princess concept actually can't be used otherwise General Adoptions crop up and cause the game to crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Serkol View Post
    WTF brown haired Mido?
    I can safely say I didn't expect that.
    His hair looks brown to me in OoT:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Serkol View Post
    Mh... we really need more variety in the Sheikah models. There's only so many ways Sheikh's outfit can be enriched before they all start looking the same.
    Well the Master Spy and Master Assassin really are just the regular Spy and Assassin unit, just alone instead of with a group.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    They are Diplomats. The entire Princess concept actually can't be used otherwise General Adoptions crop up and cause the game to crash.
    Unfortunate, but at least that gives us a free slot. Here's hoping the Guardians will work properly!

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    His hair looks brown to me in OoT
    It's really more of a orange-ish blond
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    At any rate, glad to finally see him among the Kokiri ranks!

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Well the Master Spy and Master Assassin really are just the regular Spy and Assassin unit, just alone instead of with a group.
    Ah so it's intentional that they look the same.
    Well, I had already been preparing that image I posted in Sheikah thread anyway (already felt we need more variety for them) so...
    if anything this makes it okay that, as I just realized, there already are "Mob Moblins" as units (I listed those as Guardians in my agents thread)

    Speaking of whom...

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Serkol View Post
    They're here!!!

    ...mh, the model looks good, but at this angle and size I can't make out much of the face behind that helmet. Can you show another shot that lets us see it better? (Or, if you made it, what the face under the helmet looks like?)
    Dude, I've been holding my breat I don't even know how long for these guys... don't make me wait any longer, please!

  19. #79
    Avatar of the Ice Wolf's Avatar Praeses
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    In all the images I found, Mido's hair does indeed seem brown. All deviations from the brown I find as auburn looking actually... Either way seems acceptable.

    As for the Sheikah Master Spies and Assassins, I know Serkol and I had a discussion a while ago of how saying "Sheikah Spy" doesn't sound impressive enough for a race of super spies and assassins. What would you think of names along the lines of "Eyes of Darkness" for the spies and "Shadow Stalkers" for the assassins? Anything darkness or shadow related really just to fit the Cadre. Again, just a suggestion, but I think they need more imposing names.
    Last edited by Avatar of the Ice Wolf; September 08, 2012 at 09:11 PM.

    West: Foranar- Azurita - The Redeemer - Sinteiria - Sakotae the Guardian (Tavia) - Saleria
    East: Nerise - Kiril

  20. #80

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    In my list I changed walker to stalker. Seemed more fitting.

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