General Discussion, Announcements

[Mattwensley]

True. LotR demands a set and structured timeline, which Zelda's is, to be fair, a complete mess to attempt to set out. Completely different areas, so, as Opus says, an unfair comparison. However, I will say that Neph possibly pushes the boundaries of what is capable with the engine a little more, with flying units and the such.

[zacen299]

True. LotR demands a set and structured timeline, which Zelda's is, to be fair, a complete mess to attempt to set out. Completely different areas, so, as Opus says, an unfair comparison. However, I will say that Neph possibly pushes the boundaries of what is capable with the engine a little more, with flying units and the such.

I don't know Hyrule Historia actually helps it make sense. Granted it's still not a timeline due to the one where Link dies would technically need to be an alternate universe. Still not the point within the rest of the book it actually explains a surprising amount. Still not perfect but the best we've got so far. If that made any sense at all which it probably doesn't.

[Opus]

True. LotR demands a set and structured timeline, which Zelda's is, to be fair, a complete mess to attempt to set out. Completely different areas, so, as Opus says, an unfair comparison. However, I will say that Neph possibly pushes the boundaries of what is capable with the engine a little more, with flying units and the such.

Until they fly over walls, flying units are nothing more than a differently animated soldier, so I really would put that as a really big thing (as I believe that was done in Rome before Neph did his, but I am not sure) Don't get me wrong, new animations are great and it was well done by Neph. (I might be putting my foot in my mouth if Neph actually did solve that problem. Ican't play the game so I don't really know)

[Dragus]

Very exciting updates! Thank you for all the work Nephalim.

[UndyingNephalim]

It has been some time since I have commented on this mods status, but I must say that although we have disagreed in the past over many bits and pieces, that I cannot disagree with the way you have made these cities. They not only look beautiful, but it's wonderful to finally see a custom city which actually looks as playable as vanilla cities (unlike Third Age, Rivendell especially). Great job!

I'm glad the settlements are well liked, even if some other things are not.

loyalty to the original content.

I think when it comes to LOTR it's really easy to stick close to source material because:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A) It's very consistent
B) It has a single unified artstyle that generally universally agreed on by a majority of people. Even the cartoon LOTR tried it's best to conform to Alan Lee's paintings of LOTR despite failing.
C) LOTR's story and events are a natural fit for an RTS framework. In most of the stories we have massive armies fighting each other.
D) Characters and their motivations, backstories are generally well defined. There's little disagreement over features and personalities of characters.
E) A lot of LOTR mods are based on Peter Jackson's take on LOTR, which dispite being my favorite version it actually deviates quite a bit from the source material. Saruman never became of many colors, Tom Bombadil is nowhere to be found, Elves show up at Helm's Deep even though they never did originally, Arwen is running around saving people even though in the novels that was Glorfindel, Faramir was tempted by the Ring before rejecting it, where's originally he was not influenced by it at all. Even Jackson's version, which I'm pretty sure every LOTR mod ever is based on, gives the source material a few middle fingers and it's actually probably for the better.

The problem with sticking completely to Zelda source material:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A) It's very inconsistent, with multiple alternate universes and timelines that still don't exactly add up perfectly.
B) There's at least seven completely different and distinct art styles to pick from. Many Zelda fans prefer certain ones over others to the point where they are willing to argue over them in a hostile manner.
C) The Legend of Zelda has the potential for an RTS framework in some of it's backstory (particularly ALTTP and Skyward Sword), but within the actual context of the games not so much. In most Zelda games there are maybe 50 NPC's running around, most of them just random people and civilians. If we stuck 100% to the source material, the Hylians would have an army of maybe 10 soldiers who would immediately run from a battle the moment an enemy force was within visual range.
D) Some characters are defined, but many are not. I point to Sheik's gender as an example. It's completely unimportant to the plot or anything at all in Ocarina of Time, but how many people passionately argue over Sheik's gender like it's the end-all-be-all piece of an important puzzle that was never solved? No matter how 100% close to the material a Zelda mod would stick to, there's always going to be a group of fans who will cry foul because there are so many unanswered and inconsistent traits, plot points, and events in Zelda lore like Sheik's gender.

[Emrys]

I believe that, despite the apparent lore inconsistencies, you have crafted a story and world vastly superior to Nintendo's. It draws one in and is quite interesting. It turns the "what ifs" and the "visions of grandeur" into a palpable and understandable thing. The map alone is a sight to behold. A blank slate to play out the histories provided by the games. Truly an inspiring and inspired work...

[Opus]

I'm glad the settlements are well liked, even if some other things are not.

I think when it comes to LOTR it's really easy to stick close to source material because:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A) It's very consistent
B) It has a single unified artstyle that generally universally agreed on by a majority of people. Even the cartoon LOTR tried it's best to conform to Alan Lee's paintings of LOTR despite failing.
C) LOTR's story and events are a natural fit for an RTS framework. In most of the stories we have massive armies fighting each other.
D) Characters and their motivations, backstories are generally well defined. There's little disagreement over features and personalities of characters.
E) A lot of LOTR mods are based on Peter Jackson's take on LOTR, which dispite being my favorite version it actually deviates quite a bit from the source material. Saruman never became of many colors, Tom Bombadil is nowhere to be found, Elves show up at Helm's Deep even though they never did originally, Arwen is running around saving people even though in the novels that was Glorfindel, Faramir was tempted by the Ring before rejecting it, where's originally he was not influenced by it at all. Even Jackson's version, which I'm pretty sure every LOTR mod ever is based on, gives the source material a few middle fingers and it's actually probably for the better.

The problem with sticking completely to Zelda source material:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A) It's very inconsistent, with multiple alternate universes and timelines that still don't exactly add up perfectly.
B) There's at least seven completely different and distinct art styles to pick from. Many Zelda fans prefer certain ones over others to the point where they are willing to argue over them in a hostile manner.
C) The Legend of Zelda has the potential for an RTS framework in some of it's backstory (particularly ALTTP and Skyward Sword), but within the actual context of the games not so much. In most Zelda games there are maybe 50 NPC's running around, most of them just random people and civilians. If we stuck 100% to the source material, the Hylians would have an army of maybe 10 soldiers who would immediately run from a battle the moment an enemy force was within visual range.
D) Some characters are defined, but many are not. I point to Sheik's gender as an example. It's completely unimportant to the plot or anything at all in Ocarina of Time, but how many people passionately argue over Sheik's gender like it's the end-all-be-all piece of an important puzzle that was never solved? No matter how 100% close to the material a Zelda mod would stick to, there's always going to be a group of fans who will cry foul because there are so many unanswered and inconsistent traits, plot points, and events in Zelda lore like Sheik's gender.

Well, yah. LotR is much more readily adapted to mods because the point of it was to tell a coherent story. Zelda games were made as a series of game that were not all that thought out because Nintendo was busy making great games and not filling out some big narrative. You have to admit though, some of the things you put in here are just cause you had to do something with it or you wanted to do it. Like the regime, zora culture, Deku trees moving, Korkiri being a legitimate faction in general (like the last scene in hook, how can those munchkins kill seasoned killers?) Etc. I don't necessarily believe that those are bad things, but you really only follow Zelda lore until it becomes inconvenient. (which is often due to the reasons you mentioned before so it not so bad as it would be in other mods, especially those with a historical timeframe)

[Dragus]

I'm definitely in agreement regarding the inconsistency of the games, and am also very fond of the story created here. I've only very recently (as you can tell from my above post) checked in again and downloaded the latest version of this mod. What I've read of the story in various places (and in this mod) has really intrigued me, and I'm considering performing a search for Nephalim's two fangames in the near future.

[IAmNotShazam]

Faramir was tempted by the Ring before rejecting it, where's originally he was not influenced by it at all.

I know I am going to get hell for this, but I honestly preferred that. I love Tolkien, but he had a slight problem with keeping the nature of the ring relevant. It corrupts and gets Boromir killed, but then you never really hear from it again until Frodo tries to throw it into Mount Doom. Faramir and Osgiliath really served as a nice reminder that hey, the ring is evil and can cause a massive amount of damage. It's not just a shiny object. Faramir really being able to so easily reject it really diminished the threat that the ring represented to me.

[UndyingNephalim]

I know I am going to get hell for this, but I honestly preferred that. I love Tolkien, but he had a slight problem with keeping the nature of the ring relevant. It corrupts and gets Boromir killed, but then you never really hear from it again until Frodo tries to throw it into Mount Doom. Faramir and Osgiliath really served as a nice reminder that hey, the ring is evil and can cause a massive amount of damage. It's not just a shiny object. Faramir really being able to so easily reject it really diminished the threat that the ring represented to me.

I preferred it as well, (and all the changes I mentioned). Not only did it remind of us of how the Ring can't be used again Sauron as you mentioned, but it showed how human Faramir was and how strong of a person he was to eventually reject and throw that power away after recognizing a chance to win his father's favor and defend Gondor. I'm actually disappointed they did not push for a few more changes they originally were going to have, like Arwen at Helm's Deep (would make more sense then Haldir randomly showing up since she actually has ties to Aragorn) and Sauron trying to tempt Aragorn as Annatar at the Black Gate before trying to beat him to death. At least they had some of that scene in the special features.

[Duke Serkol]

Wow, so many new wonders to feast my gaze upon... don't mind if I do! (And if I grave-quote a bit)

When you go to the main menu you'll notice Historical Battles are replaced by a "Hyrule Historia" option. And it is thus that my most anticipated feature of this game is announced: the "story mode" if you will.

Uhm, interesting... so rather than being a secondary campaign this will replace the standalone pre-set battles?
How come? Did you feel it would be redundant (since those battles will take place in this story mode) or was it just more convenient to set up this way?
Anyway, don't you think you might be stabbing yourself in the foot by calling it that? I mean, there's no way this is going to top the book by the same name in Google searches and I can imagine things might end up getting confusing in many other ways (since this is a story oriented mode, people would source it in discussions and some may think they mean the book which contains the canon storyline for the official games).

Also I take it that this is what the Link campaign and faction have evolved into, right? Although you say that...

The missions take place chronologically, starting with the Ancient Hylians and working up through the centuries. You'll likely be able to command and fight the armies of every race in Hyrule at one point. Sometimes you might run into a few (hundred fully armed) faces you might not have even suspected to be in the game.

So I guess there really is no Link/storyline-dedicated faction anymore since they all will be playable in it...? Though I'm assuming there will be at least one faction that'll be exclusive to the storyline mode, the Ancient Hylians.

(Also f--- yeah, the Neph-arious idea is coming...)

While the campaigns are largely free from and the outcome is dependent on the player, this mode of play will contain linear levels with scripted storylines and events.

I do like the sound of that, but I'm curious: will it be an absolutely, completely linear series of battles? Will there be some room for campaign map strategy? Or perhaps different branches the story can evolve into depending on your decisions and/or performance?

I love them mysteries. Pretty sure a duke somewhere will double take when they figure out what's going on in this one here

Wind Tribe?

*Fist pump*

Ahem.

You clever deceiving genius, so that's why you kept saying I was on to something with my ideas about the Wind Tribe while at the same time insisting that they wouldn't be around in present time (from the regular campaign point of view).

Unless there's a hard coded limit (which, knowing this engine I probably will run into one sooner or later) then yes eventually every settlement will have their own set up.

*lol* "Unless"
Neph, you so funny

No but seriously, glad to see vast amounts of progress with the buildings. Soon the battles will really feel like they take place in Hyrule, awesome!

I need no tribute, I just need a job.

Sorry to hear about Sigma.
And I agree with everyone's advice: giving this mod a kickstarter would be dangerous. The idea of a non-specific donation button in your Deviant Art profile could work though.

[Dragus]

I'll likely be coming into possession of a good deal of extra cash during Spring Break, and would certainly make a donation or two.

[zacen299]

I'm getting the feeling these next few updates are going to be big? Also a tad curious of what is complete right now. I like to feel up to date with these kind of things (no matter how completely crazy that sounds). Edit: Also there was something I forgot to ask when you posted that first story mission. How do you do the cutscenes? Shouldn't stuff like that be impossible by all means with the M2 engine? Unless I'm being stupid in some way shape or form.

[UndyingNephalim]

I'll answer the other questions brought up earlier some time later. Sort of busy right now.

In the meantime:

Zunayus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I attempted to make something with a lot of balconies and positions for archers to take position on. I was always disappointed in M2 when you'd see these lovely castles with lots of positions for archers to set up shop but they were off limits and only walls could be used. This probably will be one of if not the most defensible settlements in the game. This also was probably the most fun I had making a settlement thus far.

[nintendo64isking]

bravo sir! I cant wait to scale this, it'd be tough for the darknuts to take this down!

[paradamed]

This battle will be very challenging for sure! Cool preview! Are you planning to do generic settlements per race too?

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

I attempted to make something with a lot of balconies and positions for archers to take position on. I was always disappointed in M2 when you'd see these lovely castles with lots of positions for archers to set up shop but they were off limits and only walls could be used.

THIS. I know the designers made those areas inaccessible for balancing reasons, but I would've loved to turn the castle square into a killing field by putting archers up on those battlements.

Though I know this is a long-shot, is it possible to make these castles available in custom battles? This is easily my favorite custom settlement so far. Great work.

[Zectorman]

[nintendo64isking]

I for one look forward to Gerudo's Fortress at Ashinon, if its based off of OOT then it too will have plenty of high places and levels for archers to make use of

[Duke Serkol]

That fits them just perfectly, both the little huts with flowers on top and the pyramid like fortress