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Thread: THP's Unit Balance thread

  1. #1
    The Holy Pilgrim's Avatar In Memory of Blackomur
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    Default THP's Unit Balance thread

    Hello everybody,

    I'm here to ask questions about comparisons in arms and armor between the various factions of Hyrule. I'm currently working on a unit balance mod for Hyrule: Total War as this is an area that I think could use some balance.

    I have many questions as I'm not too familiar with the army recruitment styles of the various factions, their arms and armor (quality included), the vastness of each army (can the Hylians field more than the Moblins?), training received by various units (to what extent are the Zora actually trained in combat? or the Twili?). Any help that I can get would be immensely appreciated.

    So, let's get started:
    Questions are in here


    1. Hyrule
      1. Could somebody, to the best of their ability, tell me how the soldiers of Hyrule are recruited? Are they professional armies, local militia, feudal lords, etc? I have the feeling that their army is professional and that they do have a standing army and that the army is supported by militia. Are the Triforce Vanguards elite bodyguards that stay only in the city or are they professional soldiers that are sent to the field?
      2. What quality of armor do the Hylians possess? Where do they get their armor from? I know that they get some of their armor from the Gorons, but what other places do they get their arms and armor from?
      3. Unit discipline: are the Hylians brave, standard in morale, or somewhat cowardish? I have the feeling that due to their training, they are a disciplined force and would not route as quickly as the soldiers of other factions. Do they express more bravery than other factions?

    2. Gerudo
      1. Pretty much the same as Hyrule: how do they raise armies, what types of armor do they wear, how well-crafted are their weapons, what kind of training do their soldiers receive, etc.?
      2. What are their cavalry like? Are the better than most cavalry in Hyrule (I know that Ordona has the best)? Are they sturdy animals, or are they built for short bursts of speed?

    3. Gorons
      1. How are Goron armies raised? Are they just warriors that come together in times of need or are do the Gorons possess a standing army, or both?
      2. How strong is the hide of Gorons? Is it close to plate armor in durability or is it beyond that? How well does it protect the Goron from sword strikes, blows from a club, the thrust of a spear, and the force of an arrow/crossbow?

    4. Zora
      1. Again, what is the recruitment style of this faction? Are all of their units professional soldiers? Are they trained in combat or are they just there for intimidation?
      2. Zora armor: how well is it manufactured? I believe that it is form over function, but how strong is it compared to Hylian armor? What of their weapons? Are they just ornamental weapons or are they actually well-crafted in terms of war?
      3. Zora morale: Are the Zora against any form of retreat, or do they just stay in battle longer than most? Are they disciplined or do they just possess high egos?

    5. Kokiri
      1. I think I understand this faction pretty well, but just to be sure, are most of their weapons of low quality? And their armor; is it pretty much non-existant? How strong is the wooden hide of a Korok compared to manufactured forms of armor? How about the Deku trees? How thick is the wood covering their forms?

    6. Gohma
      1. This will be a bit tricky. How strong are the carapaces of the various Gohma forces? How well do they resist strikes and blows from piercing, slashing, and crushing weapons?
      2. How determined are they? Will they back off from a fight if it's going poorly or will they keep pressing on until their leader dies? Are they a uniformed mass of bugs? I know that they are of one mind, but how strong is that connection and how easily does that break?

    7. Ordona
      1. Ok, the only real thing that I need clarification about for them is how much better are their horses than everybody else? I know that they're better, but by how much?

    8. Lanayru
      1. How close are the Lanayru to Zora in terms of fighting? Are they pretty much the same or are they the complete opposite? Do they combine Hylian and Zora tactics? Is their armor on par with Hyrule or the Zora? Perhaps a middle ground?
      2. What kind of recruitment do they use? Are they professional armies like the Zora and Hylians, or are they just locals willing to fight should the time come?

    9. Deku
      1. From what I get, these guys are cowards in a close quarter fight. They're skirmishers, basically. Do they get any form of training in combat or are they just completely on their own for that?
      2. How strong are their little rocks that they shoot? What chance does it have of hurting somebody with plate, mail, or even leather? Is it enough to kill, or is it just to demoralize the enemy? Of what accuracy can these little guys shoot? Are they decent shots, poor shots, or marksmen?

    10. Moblins
      1. Not much to ask about their training and discipline. They're the typical horde/stupid race, right? Are there any Moblins that are actually disciplined or are they all mindless brutes?
      2. How large of an army can they get? Do they rival the size of the Gohma and Kokiri? Are they larger than Hyrule's armies?
      3. Do the Moblins use any decently crafted weapons or do they only have crude clubs/dulled swords? How good are their archers? Decent, poor, or high?

    11. Darknuts
      1. How few in number are these guys?
      2. Do they ever retreat due to fear, or do they retreat only when it serves a tactical purpose? Do they retreat at all?
      3. How much better are their weapons and armor compared to other factions? I understand that they have the best that their is (thanks partially to the Zuna).
      4. How well-trained are their allies? The Fokka and the Zuna, I mean. Are the Fokka better at fighting than the typical Hylian? Are the passed the Gorons in skill? What type of soldiers do the Zuna posses? Just typical soldiers with moderate training?

    12. Lizalfos
      1. What are their tactics like? Are they horde-like/hit-and-run? Or do they possess some type of training?
      2. How strong are their scales? Better than standard leather, or perhaps even light mail?
      3. Of what quality are their weapons? Well-made, standard, or scavenged? Are the crude with little repair or are they actually well-kept?

    13. Labrynna
      1. What type of training do these guys have? Are they like the Hylians? Do they possess a professional army with militia to fill in the ranks? Are they well-trained or are they just told what formation to form should they be charged by cavalry?
      2. How advanced are their arms and armor? On what par are their guns compared to historical weapons? Are they accurate or inaccurate? Are their cannons reliable? Their artillery crews trained? How sturdy is their armor, the Mechs' specifically? Is it close to the armor that the Darknuts possess? How strong are the Mechs? Can they punch through any armor with ease?

    14. Fairies
      1. Not much about them, but two things: do their larger manifestations frighten infantry? and how powerful are their blades and constructs?

    15. Stalfos
      1. These guys are the typical undead with shoddy equipment, correct?

    16. Sheikah
      1. Is their training on par with the Darknuts?
      2. How swift are they and how skilled are they at shooting?

    17. Ikana
      1. From what I've read of them, they are the top-of-the-line soldiers with excellent training and high discipline. From that, I presume that their army is a professional one?
      2. Are these guys undead, or not? Do they route from a battle, be it tactically or from fear?

    18. Twili
      1. Basically, how is their training and discipline? Are they actually prepared to invade Hyrule? Are their soldiers well-trained? How strong are their weapons and armor compared to the forces of Hyrule? On what level would they be placed?
      2. How strong are their monstrous allies? How sturdy are they and of what strength do they possess?

    19. Wizzrobe
      1. Basically, these guys are just wizards that fight should they need to? Are their acolytes fanatical in nature, or are they unwilling servants meant for being a shield?


    So yeah, sorry for all of the questions. Any help on any of these subjects would be greatly appreciated. Nobody has to answer all of them, but I'd like to get as much info as I can about these factions to best represent them in-game.


    UNIT STATS:

    Hyrule Stats
    Infantry

    • Town Guards (Militia, Urban Militia (Village), Spearmen)
      • Mount Bonuses: elephant -6, horse +4, camel +2
      • Attributes: hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
      • Move Speed: 1.0
      • Health: 1
      • Attack: 3 (spear, 1h, no shield)
        • Attributes: light_spear

      • Defense: 11
        • Armor: 8 (Breastplate, Hylian Bonus (+1))
        • Defense: 1
        • Shield: 2 (Spearmen Bonus (+2))

      • Charge: 2
      • Heat Penalty: 4
      • Morale: 6 (Hylian Bonus (+1))
      • Discipline: Low
      • Training: Untrained
      • Charge Distance: 6m

    • Swordsmen Recruits (Average, Early Pro, Infantry)
      • Mount Bonuses: elephant -10
      • Attributes: hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
      • Move Speed: 1.0
      • Health: 1
      • Attack: 5 (arming sword, c&t, 1h, no shield)
        • Attributes: N/A

      • Defense: 13
        • Armor: 7 (Brigandine, Hylian Bonus (+1))
        • Defense: 6
        • Shield: 0

      • Charge: 3
      • Heat Penalty: 5
      • Morale: 9 (Hylian Bonus (+1))
      • Discipline: Normal
      • Training: Trained
      • Charge Distance: 6m




    Gerudo Stats
    Infantry


    • Marauders (Average, Local, Infantry)
      • Mount Bonuses: elephant -10
      • Attributes: hide_forest, can_withdraw
      • Move Speed: 1.1 (Gerudo Bonus (+0.1))
      • Health: 1
      • Attack: 4 (light sword, c&t, 1h, no shield)
        • Attributes: N/A

      • Defense: 8
        • Armor: 0 (Unarmored)
        • Defense: 8
        • Shield: 0

      • Charge: 2
      • Heat Penalty: 0
      • Morale: 9 (Gerudo Bonus (+1))
      • Discipline: Low
      • Training: Trained
      • Charge Distance: 6m




    Goron Stats
    Infantry


    • Goron Guardians (Superior, Local, Infantry)
      • Mount Bonuses: N/A
      • Attributes: hide_forest, can_withdraw, very_hardy
      • Move Speed: 1.0
      • Health: 1
      • Attack: 8 (fists, Goron Bonus (+5))
        • Attributes: N/A

      • Defense: 13
        • Armor: 8 (Goron Hide)
        • Defense: 5 (Goron Bonus (+1))
        • Shield: 0

      • Charge: 1
      • Heat Penalty: 0
      • Morale: 13 (Goron Bonus (+2))
      • Discipline: Normal
      • Training: Trained
      • Charge Distance: 20m

    • Goron Berzerkers (Superior, Local, Infantry)
      • Mount Bonuses: N/A
      • Attributes: hide_forest, can_withdraw, very_hardy
      • Move Speed: 1.0
      • Health: 1
      • Attack: 10 (fists, Goron Bonus (+5))
        • Attributes: N/A

      • Defense: 10
        • Armor: 8 (Goron Hide)
        • Defense: 2 (Goron Bonus (+1))
        • Shield: 0

      • Charge: 1
      • Heat Penalty: 0
      • Morale: lock_morale
      • Discipline: Impetuous
      • Training: Trained
      • Charge Distance: 20m


    Last edited by The Holy Pilgrim; July 12, 2012 at 11:23 PM.

  2. #2
    Mattwensley's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Ordona:- the horses are good, but due to very little variation, the advantage is currently very small. They have a light cavalry unit that can act as heavy cavalry against light units, but die very quickly in even slightly disadvantageous situations, horse archers that are fairly competant and versatility, but slightly lack numbers to have stopping power, and the generals bodyguard, which, while they have high defence, have a slightly weaker charge than GB in other version of TW. Their low numbers also mean they don't last long in hand-to-hand. Overall, I think variation as well as maybe making them a bit stronger in charge will fix my issues with them.
    Cavalry are still the basis of my force for Ordona, but they don't do very good outside of standard cavalry scenarios. Pin them in a street, or in hills, and they die as fast as any other cavalry unit.

    EDIT: In terms of back story, the Ordonans have never (or rarely) fought an actual war,, they just keep raiders off their land, so due to lots of land and plenty of food, numbers should be high, maybe not horde high, but definitely above average.
    Last edited by Mattwensley; July 12, 2012 at 03:26 PM.
    ~~Knowledge is power, and I do not like the feeling of weakness~~
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  3. #3

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    I've compiled a massive list of imbalances


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    As I list the imbalances I have noticed, be sure to keep this forumla in mind when I mention HP.



    In the Vanilla game, the forumla was broken down as such



    Standard unit 60+ men

    1 hp

    1-17 att (Ranged Varied)

    4-30 defense


    Elite Unit 30 men

    2 hp

    9-25 att (ranged was anywhere from 10-23) (Naffatun)

    12-31 def


    Extremley Rare units (New world Bodygaurd is the only one I can think of)

    20 men

    3 HP

    20+ att

    20+ def




    I'll start with everything I have personally tested.

    (Feel free to contribute)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kingdom of Hyrule:


    Crossbowmen are nasty in a melee fight, which is strange considering they are just lowly crossbowmen.

    Princess Zelda I is ridiculously hard to kill, even while surrounded. None of the other Zelda's seem to be as tough as her.

    Raru Does not have any extra hitpoints, which is strange considering he is a hero. (i suppose this was a simple mistake)

    The Triforce Vangaurd simply does not live up to expectations, and oftentimes are shamefully outclassed by their seemingly inferior brethren, the ironclad Elites.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Orodona Province:


    Despite being a cavalry based faction, their cavalry is the laughingstock of HTW, strange considering they are farmers.

    The Hawkmen are not numerous or powerful enough to do significant damage.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Zora:


    The Zora infiltrators have a paltry 6 units in their group, are vunerable to missles, have no extra hitpoints, and have a passable attack/defense rating considering the unit size and other variables. Hit points should be increased to at LEAST 2. At the moment they are absolutely crushed in every fight with little to no losses
    from my soldiers.


    Zaleen is slightly better with 3 hp, but needs a small boost to his unit, perhaps 4 or 5.



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kokiri:


    Grove watchers are for some reason just barley up to the task of being heavy infantry, which is strange considering their brethren, the kokiri minutemen are absolute monsters. (also, since they are the official General's bodyguard, it may be wise to give them 2 hp, and perhaps lower the unit count. just as it was in vanilla medeival. (War leader's retinue in America's campaign consisted of 30 men with 2 hp)


    Emerald Archers are the True heavy infantry of the kokiri, and with the advantage of a ranged attack, it is not uncommon for them to be the first ones on the walls in a seige battle (for me anyways). Personally I like them this way, but considering the advantage they hold over other units, it seems unfair.


    Deku Trees have no extra hitpoints and are unfortunately slaughtered without remorse. Considering they are heavy cavalry this is odd. Also Sad to me because they are one of my favorite units.


    Mudmen of Faron (Or mudmen of Fail as I call them ) make a mockery of the kokiri military, I cant put my finger on it, but they are just SO bad.

    bad morale, bad stamina, bad att/def, bad everything. The reason it sticks out so much is as a whole, the kokiri Military is superior in most other regards. I think an attack or perhaps a defense boost would be suitable.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gorons:





    Dem Ruby Gaurds


    Dat Darunia


    Dat EVERYTHING


    no just kidding. the real problem is the gorons roll is so fast that their powerful melee units can close the distance between armies very quickly. Speed+power= pwnage.

    Perhaps slow their roll slightly, because at the moment, even the olympic sprinters of the kokiri and the stalfos cannot escape.

    also, Bomb throwers/MBT do not have enough range to do any meaningful damage.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gerudo:


    Nabooru's unit is frail and is quickly swept aside, considering they're overall good stats, I've jotted it down as a weapon bug or something. Regardless Nabooru doesn't compete with the likes of the other Heroes in a duel.

    GerudoDorf's targeting AI is not very good, and they will often attempt to shoot through solid objects they cannot penetrate. Otherwise, perfect.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Gohma:


    Difficult to explain, But I'll do my best.


    Generally, units that are seemingly (Upgrades) of their predecessor's have no meaningful difference in attack and defense values.


    Perfect Example


    Gohma Larvae; Unit size (126)


    Att 1

    Def 4

    Charge 1


    Gohma Juveniles (Unit Size 126)


    Att 2

    Def 4

    Charge 2



    This may not seem like a big deal at first, but when you consider that a gohma larvae costs HALF as much as it's (upgrade) unit, you can see that there is pretty much no reason to spend more rupees on a unit that only has a negligibly better attack rating.


    The gohma Juveniles should probably increased to at least 4 damage, and keep them with 4 defence.


    Gohma adolescents, although an upgrade of their previous forms have LOWER attack and defense values. It may seem fine considering that they are an archer, but even that will not save them from a brutal and swift end on the battlefield. They should have the highest defensive or attack rating of the 3. (in my opinion)


    Gohma Long legs have no Extra hit points, a laughable attack/defense rating and with only 12 units, are crushed and swept aside with little to no resistance. Perhaps increasing their unit count would fix this, as it wouldn't make sense to give them more hit points (maybe).



    with an attack rating of 3, and defense of 4 Mido simply cannot compete, and is easily killed by even basic units.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lanaryru Province.


    The Heroes of this faction do not have any extra hitpoints, and only average attack and defense values. Needless to say, they are unceremoniously violated by all manner of foul creatures and can do nothing to fight back. Sad to see since they are heroes, and rather interesting ones at that.


    Gaurdian Maidens and shore sentries have too little attack and defense/HP to make up for their small numbers, and are the laughingstock of Elite units. Also Sad because I think they look very nice.


    Archer Battlecrabs are not numerous enough to do any significant damage with their arrows, and are generally innefective aside from being mediocre damage tanks.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Deku Tribes:


    Need a small boost of perhaps 1 or 2 to their ranged attack across the board, otherwise fine.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Moblins:


    Perfectly balanced and deadly except for the fact that most of their heroes do not have any extra hp, and are easily clobbered. (Ogalon and King Bublin, odd considering how tough he was in TP)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Darknut Legion:


    Low unit count coupled with a slow movement speed means that these guys do not last very long in a prolonged fight. They are excellent in the first 15 minutes or so of a game, but afterwards they tire quickly and are killed.



    It seems to me that the Darknuts simply don't have the manpower required to make it through a fight. I think it would be prudent to either slightly up their unit count (by about 5-6) across the board.


    or give them much more stamina, because that is their biggest problem.



    Dishonored: Since they are a spearmen I belive they have a hardcoded reduction in stamina, nonetheless, they tire ridiculously fast and are of no use to me in battle. I can generally fight off horses with my adepts if need be.



    The Fokka Knights are no help to their brethren, and die quickly since they are so few. A beautifully modeled and textured unit, unfortunatley I've only got to look at them once, because after my first battle using them, I couldn't bring myself to do it again.



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lizalfols:


    Balanced and Deadly. I like them a great deal, except for


    Aero Fols unit size is too small in relation to their att/def/hp values, and they are easily killed.


    Vakat the Winged sufferes the same fate. Even more embarrassing since he is a Hero.


    Now generally I would talk about how the other Lizafols heroes dont have any extra hp and cant compete, but amazingly, they actually CAN compete, and in some cases, even defeat other, more powerful heroes.
    I think this is because they have many good units to fall back on if they need assistance.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Faries of Tarm:


    The Korrigans have very low HP value for their unit size, and with average att/def, as well as no ranged attack. They die rather quickly in comparison to other units of their faction.

    other than that, this faction is perfect.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Stalfos:


    With the new update it feels as though they have been fixed. They are still difficult, but are no longer the doomstacks of doom they once we're. I can not find anything wrong with this faction.



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Order of the Wizzrobe:


    Geomancers Range feels a bit too long, considering the damage they deal.

    Auquamancers and Pyromancers are not very good and generally do not measure up to their brethren. A weak missle attack, small unit size and poor accuracy make them better cannon fodder than missle units.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Labrynna Regime:

    gunners are not very accurate.

    Awful melee soldiers, but I'm sure that will be fixed with the next update.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kingdom of Ikana


    Although in the description it say's they have superior soldiers in most regards, the soldiers of Ikana Kingdom are generally underwhelming and do not live up to their mighty reputation. With average morale, average unit sizes, average stamina, and average attack and defense values. the Kingdom of Ikana, with a few exceptions (most notably Captain Keeta and the Garo's) just feel average. considering their reputation, This is a problem.



    Noblemen do not have the Hp, or att/def to make up for their low unit size, and although the best looking of the ikana units (in my opinion) there is generally no reason to use them, when you could just bring footmen and gatekeepers.


    overall I belive a fairly good defensive boost across the board seems in order, seeing as how they represent the souls of soldiers who have fought through hundreds of years of war. (they sure don't fight like it)


    For some Reason King Igos Du Ikana goes down really fast. I think it is again, because his defense is too low.




    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Forces of Twilight


    Same Problem, only worse


    with medium to small unit sizes, average to low attack and defense, and no meaningful ranged units, these guy's make the Orodona Province look like Gladiators. Sad, as I expected more from them.



    In my eyes the way you could fix this is either by upping their unit count by about 20 per unit, or giving them higher att/def.


    *UPDATE
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mercenaries

    Huskus as a whole have poor morale and insufficient hp to make up for their small unit sizes. attack/defense values are fine.


    Huskus Knights are FAR to few in number in relation to their HP/ att/def values. and are easily defeated, depsite being what I assume to be the strongest of the Huskus.

    I suggest giving them at least 3 hp, or increasing unit size

    Huskus bounty hunters/warrior caste are the same deal, only slightly better due to having many more units.

    I suggest giving them 2 hp, or increasing the unit size.




    I'll answer as much as I can:



    The Wizzrobe


    Acolytes are untrained peasants who have been promised a taste of the power that the wizzrobes wield, in exchange for their assistance in battle


    Orodona

    They're horses are hardy, tough and used to running in the pastures.They are the finest horses in all the land, On Par with Epona.


    Ikana


    Not only are they a Professional Army, They are perhaps THE most professional Army in all of Hyrule, and on top of that, they're soldiers have been fighting through hundreds of years of eternal Civil War. They are tough, Disciplined, and have Multiple Lifetimes of Battlefield Experience. We're Talking SAS quality Soldiers here.
    Last edited by Scar86; July 12, 2012 at 03:17 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    when it comes to the Hylians i believe that they are the most highly trained, well equiped, professional army in the setting. best armor, best weapons, best training, morale, whatever else you need, they have the best. they have the most territory to defend, most of the other races dislike them, and if they cannot back up their talk, the others would take the first chance they can get to knock them down a peg or two. so there is my reasoning, they are the best becasue they HAVE to be. as they say "if you want peace, preare for war".

    the Gerudo i see as mostly raiders and thieves that do not really have millitary training so much as survival/hunting training. they really have no armor worth noting to my knowledge, just normal clothing like Lanaryu. they survive by not getting close enough to stab and filling their opponents with arrows.

    the Zora i view as the only real "PRofessional" army after Hyrule and Labrynna. i believe they are primarily form over function when it comes to arms and armor. their equipment is probably better than say, the Kokiri, but not as good as Hyrule. i kinda view them as training alot, but having no real practical battlefield experiance.

    i believe Ordona is the main supplier of the other factions when it comes to horses, so i actually think they are the same when it comes to horses. for their arms and armor i think they would most likely buy alot of it from their Hylian allies.

    Lanaryu is mostly young people tired of being repressed. i think they propably have more practical arms then the Zora, still not as good as Hyrule, and they do not wear any armor worth speaking of like the Gerudo. no real battlefield experiance i would imagine. i'm not sure wheather they would side with Hyrule or the Zora though if forced to pick a side.

    i cant imagine the Deku have any training, they go by instinct i believe. and i cannot see their rocks do any damage at all to some one even in leather armor, let alone chainmail or plate.

    Moblins i believe have alot of numbers, not as much as the gohma, maybe more than the Kokiri. no real armor or weapons save maybe scavenged ones. and i believe the "Grunts" and maybe the bulblins are the only semi organized ones.

    the Darknuts are simply "The Best", period. in everything. i believe. arms, armor, training, morale. i still think they act more individualy than as a unit though. as for the Fokka, and Zuna i have no idea.

    Labrynna i see as Hyrules rival in terms of Training, and equipment. they are Professional, well trained and equipped. seeing as how they are more "Tech" than "blade" their melee probably is not up to standards or Hyrule, but seeing as how you will be dead before you ever get to them, i doubt they are as well trained in melee.

    the Sheikah are assassins, rather than warriors. they are technique instead of strength. i see them as just as well trained as the Darknuts, just in differernt areas. the definitive "Glass Cannon" compared to the "Mighty Glacier" to use Tropes.

    the Twili and Ikana i dont know as much as i want to, sorry.

    the Wizzrobes die if you sneeze at them from what i understand, and they pretty much brainwash their Acolytes into fanatics. so human shields.

    well thats all i got. hope it helps.

  5. #5
    The Holy Pilgrim's Avatar In Memory of Blackomur
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattwensley View Post
    Ordona:- the horses are good, but due to very little variation, the advantage is currently very small. They have a light cavalry unit that can act as heavy cavalry against light units, but die very quickly in even slightly disadvantageous situations, horse archers that are fairly competant and versatility, but slightly lack numbers to have stopping power, and the generals bodyguard, which, while they have high defence, have a slightly weaker charge than GB in other version of TW. Their low numbers also mean they don't last long in hand-to-hand. Overall, I think variation as well as maybe making them a bit stronger in charge will fix my issues with them.
    Cavalry are still the basis of my force for Ordona, but they don't do very good outside of standard cavalry scenarios. Pin them in a street, or in hills, and they die as fast as any other cavalry unit.
    So would Hyrule and Ordona use the same types of cavalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar86 View Post
    I've compiled a massive list of imbalances


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    As I list the imbalances I have noticed, be sure to keep this forumla in mind when I mention HP.



    In the Vanilla game, the forumla was broken down as such



    Standard unit 60+ men

    1 hp

    1-17 att (Ranged Varied)

    4-30 defense


    Elite Unit 30 men

    2 hp

    9-25 att (ranged was anywhere from 10-23) (Naffatun)

    12-31 def


    Extremley Rare units (New world Bodygaurd is the only one I can think of)

    20 men

    3 HP

    20+ att

    20+ def




    I'll start with everything I have personally tested.

    (Feel free to contribute)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kingdom of Hyrule:


    Crossbowmen are nasty in a melee fight, which is strange considering they are just lowly crossbowmen.

    Princess Zelda I is ridiculously hard to kill, even while surrounded. None of the other Zelda's seem to be as tough as her.

    Raru Does not have any extra hitpoints, which is strange considering he is a hero. (i suppose this was a simple mistake)

    The Triforce Vangaurd simply does not live up to expectations, and oftentimes are shamefully outclassed by their seemingly inferior brethren, the ironclad Elites.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Orodona Province:


    Despite being a cavalry based faction, their cavalry is the laughingstock of HTW, strange considering they are farmers.

    The Hawkmen are not numerous or powerful enough to do significant damage.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Zora:


    The Zora infiltrators have a paltry 6 units in their group, are vunerable to missles, have no extra hitpoints, and have a passable attack/defense rating considering the unit size and other variables. Hit points should be increased to at LEAST 2. At the moment they are absolutely crushed in every fight with little to no losses
    from my soldiers.


    Zaleen is slightly better with 3 hp, but needs a small boost to his unit, perhaps 4 or 5.



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kokiri:


    Grove watchers are for some reason just barley up to the task of being heavy infantry, which is strange considering their brethren, the kokiri minutemen are absolute monsters. (also, since they are the official General's bodyguard, it may be wise to give them 2 hp, and perhaps lower the unit count. just as it was in vanilla medeival. (War leader's retinue in America's campaign consisted of 30 men with 2 hp)


    Emerald Archers are the True heavy infantry of the kokiri, and with the advantage of a ranged attack, it is not uncommon for them to be the first ones on the walls in a seige battle (for me anyways). Personally I like them this way, but considering the advantage they hold over other units, it seems unfair.


    Deku Trees have no extra hitpoints and are unfortunately slaughtered without remorse. Considering they are heavy cavalry this is odd. Also Sad to me because they are one of my favorite units.


    Mudmen of Faron (Or mudmen of Fail as I call them ) make a mockery of the kokiri military, I cant put my finger on it, but they are just SO bad.

    bad morale, bad stamina, bad att/def, bad everything. The reason it sticks out so much is as a whole, the kokiri Military is superior in most other regards. I think an attack or perhaps a defense boost would be suitable.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gorons:





    Dem Ruby Gaurds


    Dat Darunia


    Dat EVERYTHING


    no just kidding. the real problem is the gorons roll is so fast that their powerful melee units can close the distance between armies very quickly. Speed+power= pwnage.

    Perhaps slow their roll slightly, because at the moment, even the olympic sprinters of the kokiri and the stalfos cannot escape.

    also, Bomb throwers/MBT do not have enough range to do any meaningful damage.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gerudo:


    Nabooru's unit is frail and is quickly swept aside, considering they're overall good stats, I've jotted it down as a weapon bug or something. Regardless Nabooru doesn't compete with the likes of the other Heroes in a duel.

    GerudoDorf's targeting AI is not very good, and they will often attempt to shoot through solid objects they cannot penetrate. Otherwise, perfect.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Gohma:


    Difficult to explain, But I'll do my best.


    Generally, units that are seemingly (Upgrades) of their predecessor's have no meaningful difference in attack and defense values.


    Perfect Example


    Gohma Larvae; Unit size (126)


    Att 1

    Def 4

    Charge 1


    Gohma Juveniles (Unit Size 126)


    Att 2

    Def 4

    Charge 2



    This may not seem like a big deal at first, but when you consider that a gohma larvae costs HALF as much as it's (upgrade) unit, you can see that there is pretty much no reason to spend more rupees on a unit that only has a negligibly better attack rating.


    The gohma Juveniles should probably increased to at least 4 damage, and keep them with 4 defence.


    Gohma adolescents, although an upgrade of their previous forms have LOWER attack and defense values. It may seem fine considering that they are an archer, but even that will not save them from a brutal and swift end on the battlefield. They should have the highest defensive or attack rating of the 3. (in my opinion)


    Gohma Long legs have no Extra hit points, a laughable attack/defense rating and with only 12 units, are crushed and swept aside with little to no resistance. Perhaps increasing their unit count would fix this, as it wouldn't make sense to give them more hit points (maybe).



    with an attack rating of 3, and defense of 4 Mido simply cannot compete, and is easily killed by even basic units.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lanaryru Province.


    The Heroes of this faction do not have any extra hitpoints, and only average attack and defense values. Needless to say, they are unceremoniously violated by all manner of foul creatures and can do nothing to fight back. Sad to see since they are heroes, and rather interesting ones at that.


    Gaurdian Maidens and shore sentries have too little attack and defense/HP to make up for their small numbers, and are the laughingstock of Elite units. Also Sad because I think they look very nice.


    Archer Battlecrabs are not numerous enough to do any significant damage with their arrows, and are generally innefective aside from being mediocre damage tanks.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Deku Tribes:


    Need a small boost of perhaps 1 or 2 to their ranged attack across the board, otherwise fine.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Moblins:


    Perfectly balanced and deadly except for the fact that most of their heroes do not have any extra hp, and are easily clobbered. (Ogalon and King Bublin, odd considering how tough he was in TP)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Darknut Legion:


    Low unit count coupled with a slow movement speed means that these guys do not last very long in a prolonged fight. They are excellent in the first 15 minutes or so of a game, but afterwards they tire quickly and are killed.



    It seems to me that the Darknuts simply don't have the manpower required to make it through a fight. I think it would be prudent to either slightly up their unit count (by about 5-6) across the board.


    or give them much more stamina, because that is their biggest problem.



    Dishonored: Since they are a spearmen I belive they have a hardcoded reduction in stamina, nonetheless, they tire ridiculously fast and are of no use to me in battle. I can generally fight off horses with my adepts if need be.



    The Fokka Knights are no help to their brethren, and die quickly since they are so few. A beautifully modeled and textured unit, unfortunatley I've only got to look at them once, because after my first battle using them, I couldn't bring myself to do it again.



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lizalfols:


    Balanced and Deadly. I like them a great deal, except for


    Aero Fols unit size is too small in relation to their att/def/hp values, and they are easily killed.


    Vakat the Winged sufferes the same fate. Even more embarrassing since he is a Hero.


    Now generally I would talk about how the other Lizafols heroes dont have any extra hp and cant compete, but amazingly, they actually CAN compete, and in some cases, even defeat other, more powerful heroes.
    I think this is because they have many good units to fall back on if they need assistance.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Faries of Tarm:


    The Korrigans have very low HP value for their unit size, and with average att/def, as well as no ranged attack. They die rather quickly in comparison to other units of their faction.

    other than that, this faction is perfect.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Stalfos:


    With the new update it feels as though they have been fixed. They are still difficult, but are no longer the doomstacks of doom they once we're. I can not find anything wrong with this faction.



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Order of the Wizzrobe:


    Geomancers Range feels a bit too long, considering the damage they deal.

    Auquamancers and Pyromancers are not very good and generally do not measure up to their brethren. A weak missle attack, small unit size and poor accuracy make them better cannon fodder than missle units.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Labrynna Regime:

    gunners are not very accurate.

    Awful melee soldiers, but I'm sure that will be fixed with the next update.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kingdom of Ikana


    Although in the description it say's they have superior soldiers in most regards, the soldiers of Ikana Kingdom are generally underwhelming and do not live up to their mighty reputation. With average morale, average unit sizes, average stamina, and average attack and defense values. the Kingdom of Ikana, with a few exceptions (most notably Captain Keeta and the Garo's) just feel average. considering their reputation, This is a problem.



    Noblemen do not have the Hp, or att/def to make up for their low unit size, and although the best looking of the ikana units (in my opinion) there is generally no reason to use them, when you could just bring footmen and gatekeepers.


    overall I belive a fairly good defensive boost across the board seems in order, seeing as how they represent the souls of soldiers who have fought through hundreds of years of war. (they sure don't fight like it)


    For some Reason King Igos Du Ikana goes down really fast. I think it is again, because his defense is too low.




    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Forces of Twilight


    Same Problem, only worse


    with medium to small unit sizes, average to low attack and defense, and no meaningful ranged units, these guy's make the Orodona Province look like Gladiators. Sad, as I expected more from them.



    In my eyes the way you could fix this is either by upping their unit count by about 20 per unit, or giving them higher att/def.


    *UPDATE
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mercenaries

    Huskus as a whole have poor morale and insufficient hp to make up for their small unit sizes. attack/defense values are fine.


    Huskus Knights are FAR to few in number in relation to their HP/ att/def values. and are easily defeated, depsite being what I assume to be the strongest of the Huskus.

    I suggest giving them at least 3 hp, or increasing unit size

    Huskus bounty hunters/warrior caste are the same deal, only slightly better due to having many more units.

    I suggest giving them 2 hp, or increasing the unit size.




    I'll answer as much as I can:



    The Wizzrobe


    Acolytes are untrained peasants who have been promised a taste of the power that the wizzrobes wield, in exchange for their assistance in battle


    Orodona

    They're horses are hardy, tough and used to running in the pastures.They are the finest horses in all the land, On Par with Epona.


    Ikana


    Not only are they a Professional Army, They are perhaps THE most professional Army in all of Hyrule, and on top of that, they're soldiers have been fighting through hundreds of years of eternal Civil War. They are tough, Disciplined, and have Multiple Lifetimes of Battlefield Experience We're Talking SAS quality Soldiers here.
    Al of the things mentioned here will be completely redone. Health, attack, defense, everything.

    And thanks for the info on the Wizzrobe, Ikana, and Ordona Province. It helps clarify some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnr839 View Post
    when it comes to the Hylians i believe that they are the most highly trained, well equiped, professional army in the setting. best armor, best weapons, best training, morale, whatever else you need, they have the best. they have the most territory to defend, most of the other races dislike them, and if they cannot back up their talk, the others would take the first chance they can get to knock them down a peg or two. so there is my reasoning, they are the best becasue they HAVE to be. as they say "if you want peace, preare for war".

    the Gerudo i see as mostly raiders and thieves that do not really have millitary training so much as survival/hunting training. they really have no armor worth noting to my knowledge, just normal clothing like Lanaryu. they survive by not getting close enough to stab and filling their opponents with arrows.

    the Zora i view as the only real "PRofessional" army after Hyrule and Labrynna. i believe they are primarily form over function when it comes to arms and armor. their equipment is probably better than say, the Kokiri, but not as good as Hyrule. i kinda view them as training alot, but having no real practical battlefield experiance.

    i believe Ordona is the main supplier of the other factions when it comes to horses, so i actually think they are the same when it comes to horses. for their arms and armor i think they would most likely buy alot of it from their Hylian allies.

    Lanaryu is mostly young people tired of being repressed. i think they propably have more practical arms then the Zora, still not as good as Hyrule, and they do not wear any armor worth speaking of like the Gerudo. no real battlefield experiance i would imagine. i'm not sure wheather they would side with Hyrule or the Zora though if forced to pick a side.

    i cant imagine the Deku have any training, they go by instinct i believe. and i cannot see their rocks do any damage at all to some one even in leather armor, let alone chainmail or plate.

    Moblins i believe have alot of numbers, not as much as the gohma, maybe more than the Kokiri. no real armor or weapons save maybe scavenged ones. and i believe the "Grunts" and maybe the bulblins are the only semi organized ones.

    the Darknuts are simply "The Best", period. in everything. i believe. arms, armor, training, morale. i still think they act more individualy than as a unit though. as for the Fokka, and Zuna i have no idea.

    Labrynna i see as Hyrules rival in terms of Training, and equipment. they are Professional, well trained and equipped. seeing as how they are more "Tech" than "blade" their melee probably is not up to standards or Hyrule, but seeing as how you will be dead before you ever get to them, i doubt they are as well trained in melee.

    the Sheikah are assassins, rather than warriors. they are technique instead of strength. i see them as just as well trained as the Darknuts, just in differernt areas. the definitive "Glass Cannon" compared to the "Mighty Glacier" to use Tropes.

    the Twili and Ikana i dont know as much as i want to, sorry.

    the Wizzrobes die if you sneeze at them from what i understand, and they pretty much brainwash their Acolytes into fanatics. so human shields.

    well thats all i got. hope it helps.
    Great, thanks for the info. Definitely clarifies some thoughts that I had on various factions.

    +rep to all three of you

  6. #6

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    yay


    Also, I'm fairly certain that the Stalfos we're Once a professional Army, There are many conflicting stories about it in Zelda Lore, but their race either Descends from the Kokiri Forest or Hyrule, or perhaps both. Either Way, they are disciplined, but don't have a true consciousness, and instead are lead by a leader who wields some power over them.

  7. #7

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    @The Holy Pilgrim

    keep in mind thats all just speculation and guesses on my part, no idea whats actually true. but glad i could help.

  8. #8
    Mattwensley's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Holy Pilgrim View Post
    So would Hyrule and Ordona use the same types of cavalry?

    +rep to all three of you
    Compared to the other's posts, mine looks a little low on data . Will work harder in future!

    I don't know, but assume there is a Gondor/Rohan thing going on - Gondor get horses, Rohan get slight protection and favourable trade agreements. Very likely they would be similar, but Hyrule would likely send them straight to war, but Ordona train all their lives with them, and would likely keep the very best for themselves - not through malice, but because it's what you do. For these reasons, even Ordona recruits would get the best out of their horses, more than the best Hyrulean knight. Therefore, Ordona cavalry should have better charge, speed, and stamina than even the best of other races, but lacking in experience, etc.
    ~~Knowledge is power, and I do not like the feeling of weakness~~
    ~~If it's a million to one shot, I'll make sure I'm the one~~

  9. #9
    The Holy Pilgrim's Avatar In Memory of Blackomur
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar86 View Post
    yay


    Also, I'm fairly certain that the Stalfos we're Once a professional Army, There are many conflicting stories about it in Zelda Lore, but their race either Descends from the Kokiri Forest or Hyrule, or perhaps both. Either Way, they are disciplined, but don't have a true consciousness, and instead are lead by a leader who wields some power over them.
    Wait, so the Stalfos are actually trained?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnr839 View Post
    @The Holy Pilgrim

    keep in mind thats all just speculation and guesses on my part, no idea whats actually true. but glad i could help.
    Still, any bit of info helps. If they turn out to be true, the more power to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattwensley View Post
    Compared to the other's posts, mine looks a little low on data . Will work harder in future!

    I don't know, but assume there is a Gondor/Rohan thing going on - Gondor get horses, Rohan get slight protection and favourable trade agreements. Very likely they would be similar, but Hyrule would likely send them straight to war, but Ordona train all their lives with them, and would likely keep the very best for themselves - not through malice, but because it's what you do. For these reasons, even Ordona recruits would get the best out of their horses, more than the best Hyrulean knight. Therefore, Ordona cavalry should have better charge, speed, and stamina than even the best of other races, but lacking in experience, etc.
    Yeah, that's all understandable. So perhaps a small bonus for the Ordona's cavalry compared to Hyrule's?

  10. #10

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Holy Pilgrim View Post
    Wait, so the Stalfos are actually trained?
    Normaly it depands on how much of their old self the necromancer let them keep.

  11. #11

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Holy Pilgrim View Post
    Wait, so the Stalfos are actually trained?

    Well due to the finesse with which they fight in Oot/MM, One would assume that, at least the common Stalfos Swordsman, had had some type of Advanced training when he we're alive. The One's in Tp not so much, but they do more than blindly swing a sword around. Not sure if they can use any of that training once their commander takes over their minds, but thats up to you.

  12. #12
    The Holy Pilgrim's Avatar In Memory of Blackomur
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Drachenfan View Post
    Normaly it depands on how much of their old self the necromancer let them keep.
    So basically, they had the training of their past life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar86 View Post
    Well due to the finesse with which they fight in Oot/MM, One would assume that, at least the common Stalfos Swordsman, had had some type of Advanced training when he we're alive. The One's in Tp not so much, but they do more than blindly swing a sword around. Not sure if they can use any of that training once their commander takes over their minds, but thats up to you.
    Hehe, read "Oot/MM" as "Orcs of the Misty Mountains"

  13. #13
    Baerke Hinn Gauzki's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Since I'm no expert on Zelda lore I can't really do anything but agree with what has been posted so far.. Aaaand pointing at the Ikanas yelling BUFF UP NEEDED just about.
    Hmm... But if you need someone else who's willing to test the stats then hit me up on steam THP.

  14. #14
    The Holy Pilgrim's Avatar In Memory of Blackomur
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Will do

  15. #15

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    so, quick question. i'm a total idiot when it comes to mods and such, pretty much the only reason i can even have this and Third Age installed is because it's literally click and download. so when/if you make this balance mod will it be the same thing?

    i REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, want call of warhammer but i don't know how to do torrents, and i refuse to use the paysite they have, plus the tanslation patch and well.....

    been trying to get my buddy over to install but he keeps making excuses to avoid coming over. bastard......

    anyway, tangent aside, easy install an idiot like me could do would be appreciated.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnr839 View Post
    so, quick question. i'm a total idiot when it comes to mods and such, pretty much the only reason i can even have this and Third Age installed is because it's literally click and download. so when/if you make this balance mod will it be the same thing?

    i REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, want call of warhammer but i don't know how to do torrents, and i refuse to use the paysite they have, plus the tanslation patch and well.....

    been trying to get my buddy over to install but he keeps making excuses to avoid coming over. bastard......

    anyway, tangent aside, easy install an idiot like me could do would be appreciated.
    PM me and I can help you with the torrent. They aren't hard to use at all. I remember I was unsure about them, but after one or two downloads, it becomes a lot easier

    And I'll try to make this sub-mod as easy to install as possible.

  17. #17

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    ooo thanks, but it would have to wait till tomorrow, don't have time now.

  18. #18
    UndyingNephalim's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Will answer these.

    1. Hyrule
    - That have both professional and militia armies. Each town has their own group of Town Guards and recruits that more or less run them selves, while the rest of the Hylian army is controlled by a board of generals that answer to the Princess.
    - Hylians have decent armor. Most of their units have either iron armor.
    - I would say most Hylian units are "reasonably brave." They won't run at the sight of another army charging at them, but if they see a giant creature charging at full force they'd make a run for it.

    2. Gerudo
    - All Gerudo are drafted into their army at a young age. Every Gerudo services their army in some way, even if their job is to just breed horses for their troops. Most Gerudo have little or no armor. Their weapons are of decent quality, and they have very good training.
    - Gerudo are intended to have the second best Archers and Archer Cavalry in the game.

    3. Gorons
    - All Gorons know how to fight to some degree, though they only form armies in times of need. I would say they are more so brawlers then skilled at fighting. They'd rather just punch someone in the face then gracefully use a weapon so their training is not very skilled.
    .- Goron's backs are mostly made of rock, so hitting them with a sword is like hitting a stone: largely ineffective. Their only real weakspots are their faces and their bellies, which probably would be the equivalent to leather.

    4. Zora
    - Zora soldiers are selected at birth and are all professionally trained, usually much harsher then any other faction. As such they have the best professional training and discipline.
    - Zora armor is made of Gold, which is softer then more practical iron, and Coralmold, which is a rubbery and probably as thick as leather. Their weapon are more ornamental then practical
    - Zora are braver then anyone else and would only retreat if defeat is certain.

    5. Kokiri
    - Their armor is pretty much useless, as it's not too hard to cut through wood with most weapons. Koroks could be cut down as easily as an unarmored Hylian. The Great Deku Tree has pretty thick bark though, I imagine nothing short of siege weapons or fire arrows could bring him down.

    6. Gohma
    - Their exoskeletons are about as durable as bones are, so a well placed blow probably could crack it.
    - Gohma will not retreat until the general is killed, in which case they begin to lose their connection and go into a panic.

    7. Ordona
    - They are supposed to have the best melee Cavalry in the game, so they should be able to beat anyone else's cavalry in a one on one fight.

    8. Lanayru
    - They are quite opposite of the Zora. Most soldiers in Lanayru are very inexperienced and have never fought before.They have even less armor then both the Hylians and Zora.
    - Their army is mostly willing volunteers who have no real experience.

    9. Deku
    - Deku have experience fighting themselves, but nothing professional. They pretty much are a mob of angry cowards.
    - Their projectile attacks are mainly intended to stun and demoralize enemies. I would say they are better at random cluster fire rather then hitting their target dead on.

    10. Moblins
    - I would probably say the Moblin Grunts are the most disciplined of the lot, but only in that they are able to keep formation. Pretty much every Moblin soldier just wants to get into the fight and bash heads. As such I imagined that they would be the best "charging" faction in the game.
    - They don't have the numbers of the Gohma or Kokiri. I would say they outnumber Hyrule though, especially in the case of their smaller units.
    - Crude everything. The best armor they have for their soldiers is leather, only one of their hero characters (Ogalon) has iron plating.

    11. Darknuts
    - Other then the Sheikah they have the fewest numbers of any faction.
    - They are capable of retreating and will in horrible situations, but I imagine they are braver then everyone except the Zora.
    - Indeed, the best weapons and armor around.
    - Fokka and Zuna both have decent training. I would probably say the Zuna are more skilled in form fighting and evading blowns, while the Fokka are better at brawling and taking hits.

    12. Lizalfos
    - Lizalfos prefer to flank enemies from multiple directions rather the go in head-on. All Lizalfos are skilled in hunting, so they are more so hunters rather then soldiers. They are trained in a way to hunt down and kill a target like it's prey rather then a soldier.
    - I would say their scales are probably about as tough as leather.
    - Lizalfos actually have a wide variety of weapon from crude (wooden spears used by the Treehoppers) to well crafted (giant hammers used by Darkhammers)

    13. Labrynna
    - They have a professional army along the same lines as Hyrule, though they also employ the Tokay as slaves, who have almost no training at all
    - Their armor is made of bronze, which I imagine is a little less practical then iron. I would consider their weaponry on par with late Medieval era and early Renaissance ( 1400AD - 1600AD ), though they do have a steam-punk vibe which delves into unrealistic territory.

    14. Fairy
    - Indeed they should scare off smaller units. I imagine the materials the Fairies use is much stronger then earthly metals, so their physical weapons and Golems are resistant.

    15. Stalfos
    - Pretty much

    16. Sheikah
    - They are very skilled, though in a much different way then the Darknuts. Darknuts are trained to fight up close and personal. Sheikah are trained to flank, attack from all directions, and otherwise avoid getting hit.
    - Sheikah are all very fast, and their accuracy in ranged combat should be top notch.

    17. Ikana
    - Indeed their army is professional. They've been forced to endlessly fight a civil war so they have hundreds of years of experience.
    - They are cursed to appear as skeletons and are technically undead themselves. Unlike the Stalfos who are mindless automatons, Ikana soldiers are able to think and can feel fear.

    18. Twili
    - Their training is sort of a mixed bag. Their humanoid soldiers with armor are all professionally trained, while their beasts are pretty much vicious animals that are only able to understand basic orders. I would say their armor and weapon are stronger then those of the Hylians, though they are not prepared for the weather conditions in Hyrule.
    - Their monsters are very durable and very strong. most should be able to hold down an armored soldier.

    19. Wizzrobe
    - They are all skilled wizards. Their Acolytes are loyal and I'd go as far to say they are fanatical.

  19. #19
    The Holy Pilgrim's Avatar In Memory of Blackomur
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    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    Quote Originally Posted by UndyingNephalim View Post
    Will answer these.

    1. Hyrule
    - That have both professional and militia armies. Each town has their own group of Town Guards and recruits that more or less run them selves, while the rest of the Hylian army is controlled by a board of generals that answer to the Princess.
    - Hylians have decent armor. Most of their units have either iron armor.
    - I would say most Hylian units are "reasonably brave." They won't run at the sight of another army charging at them, but if they see a giant creature charging at full force they'd make a run for it.

    2. Gerudo
    - All Gerudo are drafted into their army at a young age. Every Gerudo services their army in some way, even if their job is to just breed horses for their troops. Most Gerudo have little or no armor. Their weapons are of decent quality, and they have very good training.
    - Gerudo are intended to have the second best Archers and Archer Cavalry in the game.

    3. Gorons
    - All Gorons know how to fight to some degree, though they only form armies in times of need. I would say they are more so brawlers then skilled at fighting. They'd rather just punch someone in the face then gracefully use a weapon so their training is not very skilled.
    .- Goron's backs are mostly made of rock, so hitting them with a sword is like hitting a stone: largely ineffective. Their only real weakspots are their faces and their bellies, which probably would be the equivalent to leather.

    4. Zora
    - Zora soldiers are selected at birth and are all professionally trained, usually much harsher then any other faction. As such they have the best professional training and discipline.
    - Zora armor is made of Gold, which is softer then more practical iron, and Coralmold, which is a rubbery and probably as thick as leather. Their weapon are more ornamental then practical
    - Zora are braver then anyone else and would only retreat if defeat is certain.

    5. Kokiri
    - Their armor is pretty much useless, as it's not too hard to cut through wood with most weapons. Koroks could be cut down as easily as an unarmored Hylian. The Great Deku Tree has pretty thick bark though, I imagine nothing short of siege weapons or fire arrows could bring him down.

    6. Gohma
    - Their exoskeletons are about as durable as bones are, so a well placed blow probably could crack it.
    - Gohma will not retreat until the general is killed, in which case they begin to lose their connection and go into a panic.

    7. Ordona
    - They are supposed to have the best melee Cavalry in the game, so they should be able to beat anyone else's cavalry in a one on one fight.

    8. Lanayru
    - They are quite opposite of the Zora. Most soldiers in Lanayru are very inexperienced and have never fought before.They have even less armor then both the Hylians and Zora.
    - Their army is mostly willing volunteers who have no real experience.

    9. Deku
    - Deku have experience fighting themselves, but nothing professional. They pretty much are a mob of angry cowards.
    - Their projectile attacks are mainly intended to stun and demoralize enemies. I would say they are better at random cluster fire rather then hitting their target dead on.

    10. Moblins
    - I would probably say the Moblin Grunts are the most disciplined of the lot, but only in that they are able to keep formation. Pretty much every Moblin soldier just wants to get into the fight and bash heads. As such I imagined that they would be the best "charging" faction in the game.
    - They don't have the numbers of the Gohma or Kokiri. I would say they outnumber Hyrule though, especially in the case of their smaller units.
    - Crude everything. The best armor they have for their soldiers is leather, only one of their hero characters (Ogalon) has iron plating.

    11. Darknuts
    - Other then the Sheikah they have the fewest numbers of any faction.
    - They are capable of retreating and will in horrible situations, but I imagine they are braver then everyone except the Zora.
    - Indeed, the best weapons and armor around.
    - Fokka and Zuna both have decent training. I would probably say the Zuna are more skilled in form fighting and evading blowns, while the Fokka are better at brawling and taking hits.

    12. Lizalfos
    - Lizalfos prefer to flank enemies from multiple directions rather the go in head-on. All Lizalfos are skilled in hunting, so they are more so hunters rather then soldiers. They are trained in a way to hunt down and kill a target like it's prey rather then a soldier.
    - I would say their scales are probably about as tough as leather.
    - Lizalfos actually have a wide variety of weapon from crude (wooden spears used by the Treehoppers) to well crafted (giant hammers used by Darkhammers)

    13. Labrynna
    - They have a professional army along the same lines as Hyrule, though they also employ the Tokay as slaves, who have almost no training at all
    - Their armor is made of bronze, which I imagine is a little less practical then iron. I would consider their weaponry on par with late Medieval era and early Renaissance ( 1400AD - 1600AD ), though they do have a steam-punk vibe which delves into unrealistic territory.

    14. Fairy
    - Indeed they should scare off smaller units. I imagine the materials the Fairies use is much stronger then earthly metals, so their physical weapons and Golems are resistant.

    15. Stalfos
    - Pretty much

    16. Sheikah
    - They are very skilled, though in a much different way then the Darknuts. Darknuts are trained to fight up close and personal. Sheikah are trained to flank, attack from all directions, and otherwise avoid getting hit.
    - Sheikah are all very fast, and their accuracy in ranged combat should be top notch.

    17. Ikana
    - Indeed their army is professional. They've been forced to endlessly fight a civil war so they have hundreds of years of experience.
    - They are cursed to appear as skeletons and are technically undead themselves. Unlike the Stalfos who are mindless automatons, Ikana soldiers are able to think and can feel fear.

    18. Twili
    - Their training is sort of a mixed bag. Their humanoid soldiers with armor are all professionally trained, while their beasts are pretty much vicious animals that are only able to understand basic orders. I would say their armor and weapon are stronger then those of the Hylians, though they are not prepared for the weather conditions in Hyrule.
    - Their monsters are very durable and very strong. most should be able to hold down an armored soldier.

    19. Wizzrobe
    - They are all skilled wizards. Their Acolytes are loyal and I'd go as far to say they are fanatical.
    Wow, that's a lot of information!

    Thanks for taking the time to answer all of my questions. I may have more in the future, but you've helped a lot. I'd like to implement your design ideas in this mod, too, such as which factions are the best at certain things. I'll be working extensively on the battle mechanics to hopefully get some variation in tactics for each army.

  20. #20

    Default Re: THP's Unit Balance thread

    hmmmm, so i did decently, got some like the Lanaryu spot on, others......not so much.......

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