Linothorax

[Petroniu]

Hi EB team and fans!

I was looking up Youtube about some things when I bumped into this guy making videos about practicality of ancient and medieval weapons, armors and shields. (or that is what it seems) He made his own hoplite armor and he did it from thick leather. He arguments the fact that linen wasn't the main material for it and if it was, they used it to decorate the armor, rather than as an extra layer of protection.
Here's the link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=8PuaUR3cFps
What do you guys have to say about it?

[bojieh]

There seem to be quite a few logical points, yet that doesn't make them facts. We can take iron and bronze, for example - while the first is better and easier to craft, the latter was used earlier.

[Raygereio]

True, linen is more labour-intensive to produce then leather. But was that a concideration for ancient societies? You don't pay slaves by the hour after all.
As for the physical & literary evicence. Well, there really isn't a lot of it for linen. But then there also isn't any for leather (at least as far as I'm aware of).

[Nikephoros Kapatsos]

Since you brought up the topic have you seen these videos?





A group from the University of Wisconsin constructed their own Linothora using linen of course! Think of it like striking a phone book with a sword. Of course Linen is a material that is weak alone, but together layer over layer it can provide efficient protection. From projectiles and weapons a like.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Aiskhylos]

I saw those here is a bit more on the subject http://www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/Linothorax.html
http://www.4hoplites.com/Linothorax.htm

[bobbin]

Hi EB team and fans!

I was looking up Youtube about some things when I bumped into this guy making videos about practicality of ancient and medieval weapons, armors and shields. (or that is what it seems) He made his own hoplite armor and he did it from thick leather. He arguments the fact that linen wasn't the main material for it and if it was, they used it to decorate the armor, rather than as an extra layer of protection.
Here's the link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=8PuaUR3cFps
What do you guys have to say about it?

Oh this guy again, people have posted links to his videos a few times, he is pretty clever but a lot of the time it seems like he is arguing against the mainstream opinion for the sake of it.

[War lord]

There seems to be a fad among Historians nowadays to declare Historical weapons and Armor useless. This is usually done through shoddy "recreations" with machine made gear and untrained reenactors.

[Ballpoint202]

True, linen is more labour-intensive to produce then leather. But was that a concideration for ancient societies? You don't pay slaves by the hour after all.
As for the physical & literary evicence. Well, there really isn't a lot of it for linen. But then there also isn't any for leather (at least as far as I'm aware of).

Slave labor is not free to the slave owner. Slaves must still be purchased, housed, fed, and trained.

Not to mention the opportunity cost: more time spent at armor production means less time to do everything else.

[Delta146]

Admittedly I do not know too much of this guy, and the few videos I have seen didn't have the best arguments I'd ever heard, however I have seen a 10-15 page thread where the matter of the Tube & Yoke was discussed. The consensus there seems to be that leather is more likely. I myself need to look at the sources more before making a judgement, but I think there is at least an argument to be made for leather.

[Moros]

Why would there only be one type of tube and yoke armour in the first place? Notice that in EB II we usually were clever enough to get round the debate by usually referring to the armour as tube and yoke instead of linothorax or spolas.

[squeehunter]

How about being made out of both? Some were made out of leather, some out of linen. If you can't afford the linen version, you're not going to not wear armor, you'll just get the leather version. I can't really see why anyone would want a linen version unless it actually was much stronger anyway. It's like having a gun made out of a meteor.

[Ahiga]

Oh this guy again, people have posted links to his videos a few times, he is pretty clever but a lot of the time it seems like he is arguing against the mainstream opinion for the sake of it.

I disagreed pretty strongly with his conclusion that they would have preferred underhand to overhand in the hoplite phalanx. Only argument I really remember from it was that they liked to depict overhand on artwork because of the 'heroic' potential of it (yet given how much they emulate the Iliad, the proper imitation would then have been to use it as a throwing spear) and that he equated using those depictions as someone using Rambo movies to depict modern military strategy. Besides that being a sloppy view, supporting that idea then completely destroys the idea of a closely packed hoplite phalanx if they use their spears underhand, which challenges the overlapping of shields and literal othismos. To be used underhand exclusively or primarily I'd think hoplite warfare would end up resembling Iliadic or Dark Age Greek era warfare.

There's a lot of debate about the spolas/linothorax and I think the term "linothorax" will continue to endure the same way the erroneous 'chainmail' does.

[Casual Tactician]

Slave labor is not free to the slave owner. Slaves must still be purchased, housed, fed, and trained.

Not to mention the opportunity cost: more time spent at armor production means less time to do everything else.

You are correct here, but we have to consider that in EB's timeframe (and even 'till the late middle ages and even later) the idea of efficiency and benefit-cost analysis (done by studied business economists) weren't common/used yet.

Otherwise slavery (and also serfdom for that matter) would have been abolished, as it's simply less productive than using free (and perhaps, or most likely, ill-paid) workers/citizens, who have a chance to climb the social ladder or accumulate some wealth, or can at least offer their childeren a better education. Also one doesn't have to purchase, house, feed, train and guard free workers. Let alone the low work ethic of people (literally) forced to do the job.

There seems to be a fad among Historians nowadays to declare Historical weapons and Armor useless. This is usually done through shoddy "recreations" with machine made gear and untrained reenactors.

Agreed! Although I don't wan't to comment on the leather/linen-issue, I just wan't to add, that just because something is more efficient, more logical or simply possible, it doesn't mean that it (= a technology, approach, tactic/strategy ) was used in the ancient times.
See Thor Heyerdahl's Ra-expeditions for example: possible yes - probable no.
Or what about eg. the French army command during the inital stages of the 1.WW? Senior commanders are quoted to have said, they're happy not to have machine guns and heavy/long-ranged artillery?!! And the French Marshal Ferdinand Foch even said: “Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value” (link).
And what about the Attaque à outrance-ethos of all European war parties? 1000 years from now people will perhaps say that kind of warfare never happend, because it doesn't make any sence and is totally stupid and inhuman/misanthropic (to one's own soldiers).

I disagreed pretty strongly with his conclusion that they would have preferred underhand to overhand in the hoplite phalanx. (...) Besides that being a sloppy view, supporting that idea then completely destroys the idea of a closely packed hoplite phalanx if they use their spears underhand, which challenges the overlapping of shields and literal othismos.

Yup. Afaic the hoplite-warfare of the 5th century BCE (and also EB's timeframe) had evolved into dense ranks of hoplite-"shieldwalls" which engaged/clashed and then fought/pushed with the shields of the front ranks of either side touching each other. In such a case using the overhand technique would be more likely and even the only possible option, I guess. As it allows to attack the enemy even if you are kind of squashed in a dense melee. Anyone who has been in a open-air concert or a jammed crowd for that matter, will know, that you won't be able to use any kind of weapon in an underarm technique in such a situation - espcially a 3m long Dory (= spear).
But maybe a hoplite would also use the underarm technique, but not in the classic hoplite phalanx during a dense melee, I guess - perhaps in a more "open" or 1-on-1 encounter.

EDIT/PS: The guy's ideas on the underarm use of the dory (hoplite spear) in the "Some points about the hoplite cuirass"-video shows that he is perhaps not quite as smart (and knowledgeable) as he may think.
But perhaps it's just his posh-snobby English accent and his arrogant mannerisms, combinded with his seemingly tremendous self-certitude, that I'm not fond of?

[Alkimachos]

I know. Probably you already finished most of the linothoraxes guys, but take a look if you wish also on this video which shows a heavier type of linothorax with scales made by the Greek club of "Korivantes". They made it according an ancient pottery of 5th B.C.

Enjoy it..

[Aiskhylos]

I'd be very interested in seeing this pottery..does he say in the video? I cannot speak Greek I'm afraid..just read a little ancient .

[Alkimachos]

I'd be very interested in seeing this pottery..does he say in the video? I cannot speak Greek I'm afraid..just read a little ancient .

Unfortunately, not. But i will ask them in Greek via their video. It says that this linothorax consisted from 15 layers of linen where are attached 1000 bronze scales.

[Alkimachos]

@ Demetrius I Poliorketes, found this pottery, see the link below. Also, from the same Greek club, "Koryvantes" found a composite Korinthian helmet. As depicted (they say) from a vase painting. Made of coper 1.5 / 1.2 mm, iron rivets, casted bronze griffons, bronze decoration, linen padding, total weight around 2.8 kilos.

Here: CLICK

[Casual Tactician]

@ Demetrius I Poliorketes, found this pottery, see the link below. Also, from the same Greek club, "Koryvantes" found a composite Korinthian helmet. As depicted (they say) from a vase painting. Made of coper 1.5 / 1.2 mm, iron rivets, casted bronze griffons, bronze decoration, linen padding, total weight around 2.8 kilos.

Here: CLICK

It's interesting to see re-enactment of Greek history. I hope I'm not applauding Chrysi Avgi-folks or the like, though.

Did the Greek miliary ever think about using hoplite-training, and re-enactment of 'full contact' holite battles (with blunt dory of course) as a means of trainging their cadets?

Apart from that, I at least would prefere seeing hoplies rather than these dudes with their skirts and sexy tights marching around.

[Alkimachos]

It's interesting to see re-enactment of Greek history. I hope I'm not applauding Chrysi Avgi-folks or the like, though.

Did the Greek miliary ever think about using hoplite-training, and re-enactment of 'full contact' holite battles (with blunt dory of course) as a means of trainging their cadets?

Apart from that, I at least would prefere seeing hoplies rather than these dudes with their skirts and sexy tights marching around.

I'm was cadet officer in the Hellenic Army. We don't have such things as re-enactment. We just learning some battles and studying the ancient tactics. Like Alexander's campaign.

We have although sth similar with the ancient hoplite's running but with modern equipment...

[Casual Tactician]

Wouldn't it be an interesting training to implement? Of course it has no direcet benefit, but the experience of being part of an hoplite phalanx could be beneficial - comradeship, recieving injuries, boosting the esprit de corps, national pride and so on...

Also I'd suggest Scots to start have training with claymores, and Germans to battle in ancient shield-wall formations... But seriously, it's an esprit de corps-practice and could be worthwhile perhaps.