Roman Infantry Armour (Rome II)

[tone]

I sincerely hope that the time period will stretch as far as 150-200AD, not just 14AD

[Manco]

Lorica segmentata is just a laminar armour. Laminar armours are not that superior to mail. A strike that would kill a man in mail would in all likelihood still kill a man in laminar/LS. Only with the emergence of men clad from head to toe in lamellar/laminar and especially plate is there that huge a difference where a plate armoured man could survive brutal assaults with bladed weapons and nary feel a thing.
Regardless actual warfare and logistics weren't a game of comparing numerical values. Being difficult to maintain and requiring relatively extended metallurgic facilities are huge downsides, the kind of downsides that made mail superior in actual use.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

The Question is: when we advance in technology, e.g. The Marian Reforms, would the effect instantly transform the existing Legions? or do we need to pay an "upgrade this Legion" button? No...dont say we have to disband and retrain...one of the most important new Legion stack system purpose should be averting this very issue....

There was a gradual evolution into a homogenous army rather than one composed of varying qualities of soldiers. It took place over years, and maniples were called Hastati, Principes and Trarii into the late Principate. Marius simply popularized a general or the state paying for equipment, as his new poor soldiers couldn't afford it, and that led to his army becoming more homogenously equipped.

[Sol Invictus]

I think most of us can agree that all things being equal the Roman military would have fully equiped all Legions in LS if possible. Of course all things are rarely equal and it is cost that usually drives decisions. When Rome reached its height we see the arrival of LS and as it declined we start to see the LS disappear over time. Simple matter of cost and the Empires ability to afford that expense. The LS was not completely superior to LH but overall it was preferred for the better fit and missle protection, though it did provide less coverage below the waist. I have always found it intersting that the Centurions retained the LH through all periods and have never read any reason for this. Anyone have a clue about that?

[magpie]

I sincerely hope that the time period will stretch as far as 150-200AD, not just 14AD

I fully agree with your hope tone.

I am guessing it starts around Marius reforms as they are legion concentrating.

One would hope they use mail for main armour until at least the AD period and then give us a good long run with the Imperial years later armour developments.

regards,

mags

[Sir. Cunningham]

Lorica segmentata is just a laminar armour. Laminar armours are not that superior to mail. A strike that would kill a man in mail would in all likelihood still kill a man in laminar/LS. Only with the emergence of men clad from head to toe in lamellar/laminar and especially plate is there that huge a difference where a plate armoured man could survive brutal assaults with bladed weapons and nary feel a thing.
Regardless actual warfare and logistics weren't a game of comparing numerical values. Being difficult to maintain and requiring relatively extended metallurgic facilities are huge downsides, the kind of downsides that made mail superior in actual use.

The laminar armour protects a lot better against thrusts and blunt trauma than mail does, so a strike that would kill a man in mail amour wouldn't in all likelihood kill one in laminar armour, infact it most likely wouldn't as the LS protects A LOT better against stabs and clubbing than mail does.

Mail is just far easier to maintain and make properly, making it the obvious choice if you're on a low budget and suffer time constraints.

[Manco]

You'll of course show us proof for this huge advantage?

[RNV]

Sorry but a plate of steel like one of the LS was maximum 1 or 2 mm deep, and even 1 mm of steel/iron has much more brinnel, Rockwell and Vickers Hardless than a ring of mail of the same material, simply by geometry and metal cristal composition, changing the definition from plate to lamellar wont change the fact that LS is mor resistent to penetration than mail and offers blunt protection. Maybe they were not resilient so if the plate was not really well made it would just break up after some hit but that I said in the last post stating that LS diffusion and quality are strictly related to the abundance of good smiths.

[Iunius_Iaponici]

I hope that the Dacian falxmen can cut the Roman lorica hamata armours in two.

[AK47]

I hope that the Dacian falxmen can cut the Roman lorica hamata armours in two.

lol Fallout3 style violence.
I guess we would finally see what happens when a elephant steps on a dudes head.

[Sir. Cunningham]

You'll of course show us proof for this huge advantage?

Proof that plain pieces of metal will protect better against penetration, slashes and clubbing than mail ? That has been proven time and again, and I've seen it with my own eyes as-well.

Mail doesn't like pointy things coming at it, the point finds an opening and the individual rings simply break and the point penetrates without too much difficulty. Where'as against a solid piece of metal it takes a lot more force to penetrate as the force is spread across the plate.

Furthermore mail doesn't protect against blunt trauma, and as such a hard hit to any place close to bone, such as the shoulder, rib cage or back had a high chance of causing a fracture. Here again solid pieces of metal with underlying padding protect a lot better as the force is spread across the plate.

Only really when it comes to protecting against slashes is chain mail a fantastic piece of protection, however again solid pieces of metal do just as good a job whilst also protecting against blunt trauma.

Finally the Lorica Segmentata is only about half the weight of chain mail suit, making it less fatiguing to fight in.

[Gandalfus]

Proof that it was not gone by 300 AD

During the 3rd century, all peregrini were granted Roman citizenship, and therefore legionaries lost their social superiority.The lorica segmentata eventually disappeared from Roman use, most likely due to its high cost and difficult maintenance despite its good qualities, although it appears to have still been in use into the early 4th century, being depicted in the Arch of Constantine erected in 315 during the reign of Constantine I to commemorate his military achievements . (However, it has been argued that these depictions are from an earlier monument by Marcus Aurelius, from which Constantine incorporated portions into his Arch.) Recently there has been evidence of a lorica segmentata found in Spain, dating from the third century. What is more surprising is that it was found in an area where, as far as we know, only limitanei operated. (Limitanei are seen as poorer-quality troops than the contemporary mobile field armies of the comitatenses.)

[Sir. Cunningham]

The Lorica Segmentata was not gone by 300 AD, it was slowly starting to disappear around this time however, not being manufactured in mass as before due to its' cost and maintenance issues coupled with the declining wealth of the Roman Empire.

[Irishman]

As to the protective benefits. Remember that thrust/puncture weapons along with crush weapons were far more common in warfare of almost every period than cut/slash weapons. Plate and solid metal does far better at protecting against these thrusts/crush. A solid strike even with a saber on a mail coat is likely to still break bone (which is why mail was so often heavily padded or fit with leather). Arrows and spears can make short work of a mail coat.

As to the cost, yes mail was labor intensive, but labor (especially at this time) was not the major influence in cost. A mail coat can be made by a layman with very little training, and can be easily fitted and maintained. Slavery largely negated the effect of labor on costs of goods. That isn't to say that mail wasn't expensive, but just because it was labor intensive doesn't decide the matter.

What mattered more for cost was WHO had to produce it, not how long it took. A piece of armor that required a week of a trained blacksmith's time would be far more expensive than an armor that required a month of a slave's.

[Manco]

Proof that plain pieces of metal will protect better against penetration, slashes and clubbing than mail ? That has been proven time and again, and I've seen it with my own eyes as-well.

No, since you know I plainly said that myself.
What I actually demanded was proof that this advantage was so huge as you purported it to be.

Laminar is not steel plate or some solid piece of metal, they are rather small and thin sheets of iron. Better than iron mail? In most cases and uses, probably yes. But it is not some sort of game changing piece of equipment and would not require that much more force to penetrate.

[neoptolemos]

Marian Imperial Roman Legionnaires ca. 100 AD:

These are Romans vs Dacians and the arm protection is known to be used there against DAcian falx.
However the artists is correctly depicting lorica hamata, lorica squamata as well because these types of armor pre-existed and outclassed lorica segmentata

[wulfgar610]

I sincerely hope that the time period will stretch as far as 150-200AD, not just 14AD

The video seems to show a scene between Nero and Seneca. that's getting up to 60 AD.

[Sir. Cunningham]

These are Romans vs Dacians and the arm protection is known to be used there against DAcian falx.
However the artists is correctly depicting lorica hamata, lorica squamata as well because these types of armor pre-existed and outclassed lorica segmentata

Pre-existed ? Yes. Outclassed ? Most certainly no.

[Emperor Domitianus]

Personally I think that with plenty of time and the engine pratically ready (thx to the previous games) they could try to stay after the realism. The new engine allow to set multiple solutions to that you can stat from the very begining of the history of Rome down to the Imperial age. Depending of the time the armour-upgrade could be set. Some of you have stated that full replacing was impossible without an industrial process behind and it's true. However when new tech will be avaible there should be the chance to spend money to upgrade so that it will reflect the thruth of history. Sincerely I think that CA should be carefull because if they do a very good product they will earn more then with any other game as Rome has been the most appreciated franchise.

[Sir. Cunningham]

No, since you know I plainly said that myself.
What I actually demanded was proof that this advantage was so huge as you purported it to be.

And how huge a difference is it you're saying I claimed there was ?

I've seen men stabbing, hacking and slashing at a suit of Lorica Segmentata, chain mail and scaled armour, and whilst a good thrust easily penetrated the chain mail, and came close against the LSq, it was almost impossible to stab through the LS. Hacking attacks against the chain mail also indicated that it would've caused a lot of blunt trauma, making huge indentations into the clay torso (some hits definitely would've broken bone), whilst against the LS there was nothing serious to be seen on the clay torso, the plates effectively having dispersed the force of the impact over a wide area. The LSq however only did a tiny bit better than chain mail against blunt force attacks, there again being some rather large indentations into the clay torso.

Finally against the slashing attacks the chain mail did great, but so did the LS & LSq.

End conclusion: The Lorica Segmentata offers a rather significant increase in overall protection compared to both the Lorica Hamata and Lorica Squamata, whilst being lighter on top.