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Thread: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

  1. #21

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Aragorn1963 View Post
    Such as? I do not doubt your judgement and knowledge on this subject, but it is pretty hard to win battles against Polish Nobles on foot and other heavy infantry at the moment. Dienende Brüder and German mercenary knights are very scarce and hardly turn up as an option to recrute. I'm not a newbie at this game and usually know how to win, but in this case it is too hard, to my opinion.
    Perhaps increase the number of available mercenaries (= German/French/English crusader units)
    If heavy infantry is really forming a problem, you still have mass amounts of heavy cavalry, which are the best on the map.
    As I understand there probably is a need for heavy infantry in the theatre, a 123 dismounted Ritterbrüder unit would probably be more than there ever have been Teutonic knights at one point in time during the entire Baltic crusades.
    (And in my opinion, Polish heavy infantry offers a challenge rather than turning Pagans into mincemeat )
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Makrell View Post
    i supprt plitting up HRE, hen you can make a hansa faction, which are very rich IF trade rghts are present
    a hansa faction? wouldn't a rebel Danzig be sufficient then?
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  3. #23
    Aragorn1963's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterbruder44 View Post
    Perhaps increase the number of available mercenaries (= German/French/English crusader units)
    If heavy infantry is really forming a problem, you still have mass amounts of heavy cavalry, which are the best on the map.
    As I understand there probably is a need for heavy infantry in the theatre, a 123 dismounted Ritterbrüder unit would probably be more than there ever have been Teutonic knights at one point in time during the entire Baltic crusades.
    (And in my opinion, Polish heavy infantry offers a challenge rather than turning Pagans into mincemeat )
    Thank you. How can I increase the number of mercenaries?

    I usually try to isolate the Polish heavy infantry and run them down with my Ritterbrüder, but it is most of the time a costly affair.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Aragorn1963 View Post
    Thank you. How can I increase the number of mercenaries?

    I usually try to isolate the Polish heavy infantry and run them down with my Ritterbrüder, but it is most of the time a costly affair.
    this thread is for suggestions for the next version, I don't know how to implement/create new units for the current version
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  5. #25
    Aragorn1963's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Well, then this is my suggestion: more mercenaries for the Order and the possibility to recrute dismounted Ritterbrüder from time to time, instead of only mounted ones.
    Last edited by Aragorn1963; January 31, 2013 at 11:45 PM.

  6. #26
    Darius_D's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Hi there.
    I found BftB mod very recently but it was something I was looking for since some time so I am truly happy I can play it. Thanks to all who have contributed.


    I think a lot of great new things could be introduced for better immersion. But AFAIK you rather can't make it without sacrificing some fundamental elements of construction of the main SS mod.
    I mean, this mod should concentrate on itself and do not bother anymore to allow playing clean SS mod in the same installation. It would be better to install the BftB mod separately from the original SS mod - in a separate submod folder - while borrowing as much as needed from its original content.

    Ok, so my ideas move around:

    1) introduction of provincial nobility dynasties closely associated with feudal loyalty/revolt system between them and the faction ruler. Consequences of disloyalty may vary up to external military intervention.

    The idea of dynasties is not new but so far not too much explored in other mods and this mod is truly unique occasion for that matter - having multitude of regions and limited number of factions.

    What is most important for the gameplay: each dynasty has its own political preferences and usually differs on a number of issues with other dynasties of the same faction regarding topics like: who to wage war against or to maintain a peace with, which general from which dynasty is emperor/king/prince, which province/dynasty is granted by the ruler to build a top level exclusive military or civil building/technology, what type of economy is allowed in their province etc.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    In short, each provincial dynasty would be ruling of bunch of regions making together a historical province (thanks to unique model of the BftB it is possible). So only members of that dynasty (family) are allowed to govern settlements in that province - generals of other dynasty are not allowed without presence of local host, otherwise the settlement will rebel. The exception is a faction ruler and his top royal generals (but few).

    Depending on above mentioned variables concernig politics, administration, economy, etc., the dynasties are more or less loyal to the ruler and respect his decisions. Of course, some dynasties or groups of dynasties consider themselves rival and thus set scene for the conflicts. Likewise, in some cases like external threat (say, Mongol invasion) these conflicts tend to cease, and in other cases they tend to grow to extraordinary dimensions - like in a period of prolonged peace and prosperity. Some factions are more prone to internal conflicts than others - like HRE.

    If some dynasty is not happy - whatever the reason - it may be a cause of serious problems like:
    - blocking recruitment of high level nobility military units in all settlements belonging to that dynasty for a number of turns or increasing costs of their recruitment/maintenance, and deserting of such units from armies or royal generals
    - blocking availability of buildings not desired in the province (guild, orders, military, civil) or increasing their cost of building
    - trade rights are cancelled or war is near or declared by external faction interfering in internal affairs and supporting the cause of discontent dynasty.
    - ploting against ruler and sending an inquisitor and/or killer against him
    - appearance of the anti-emperor/king challenger - if the opposition is more widespread and strong
    - peaceful deposing of current ruler and forcing him into exile if the opposition is particulalrly widespread and strong both provincial and in royal/imperial court. The reason could be for example a string of defeats, defamation that found popularity, excommunication etc. However, there could be a risk of other side of the same effect - this could provoke external military intervention.
    - whole province with all its settlements and generals openly rebels - there is a home civil war.
    - whole province with all its settlements and generals turn coats with some other (neighbour or enemy faction) - it means immidiate war to recover lost provinc, external military intervention not excluded (say, a whole German province rebels and defects to France* or Danemark or Lombard League* etc).

    So we can imagine HRE emperor to be taken by surprise that what seemed just a discontent of one provincial lord rapidly turned into his betrayal to other faction with whole province, and worse, soon followed by military intervention.

    So this intervention would mean simply spawning armies and enforced relations of war in diplomacy. These armies may belong to playable AI faction already existing in the mod, but I think it is worth considering to slightly modify the map on the borders to include some additional factions, though unplayable and unconquerable (due to impassable terrain) - like France, Lombard League or Hungary. All that just to justify and effectively implement scenario of external military intervention. Of course this means some extra modding work.


    Anyway, I believe that introducing dynasties is ultimately more beneficial than simple spliting states like Poland or HRE into several separate factions.


    2) Jihad function could be added to the Mongols, so that they could reach and devastate far destinations up to Frankfurt, Marienburg or Kobenhavn, not only disturbing closest neighbours like Poland, Lithuania and Rus. I think it's not only more accurate historically but crucially better for overall gameplay balance and more fun if, say, suddenly your seemingly undisturbed HRE empire must face huge invading army of dreaded Mongols.

    3) Ruins - this effect could happen after conquering a town, if the player chooses 3rd option to kill all inhabitants. Then the town (not castle) is turned into ruins which means nothing can be built by any faction in that place for several long turns. But this option cannot be abused, so should be rather restricted and available only to minor towns.

    4) Military units could be provincilized (regionalized), but I am talking about provincial dynasty system, not AOR, and this potentially means several interesting effects:
    - First - units recruited in one province can be under command of general coming only from the same province. So similarly like with settlements, generals from other dynasties can't command them. The only exception is the ruler and top royal commanders.
    - Second - if the provincial lord is upset (low loyalty) with the ruler, his provincial units in army commanded by the ruler (or royal generals) simply desert (disappear) from that army. Same effect if whole province openly rebels.
    - Third - battle banners and unit cards mark a province in which they were were recruited.

    5) Introduction of the Brüder von Dobrin Order - my only idea about new units. Link to Wikipedia



    Probably it was already discussed. Indeed, historically they played relatively little historical significance, and ceased to exist just before 1250. BUT. But my arguments are that:
    • the order could be introduced only in the very beginning of the Polish campaign and without possibility to recruit new members or even to retrain them, so all these knights could dissappear when they all die off in battles.
    • I see a very solid argument to have them available for custom /multiplayer battles, and to introduce this little known but very interesting unit into M2TW community.


    that's it, and thank you for your attention.
    Last edited by Darius_D; January 31, 2013 at 07:11 PM. Reason: rephrasing, wording

  7. #27

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius_D View Post
    Hi there.
    I found BftB mod very recently but it was something I was looking for since some time so I am truly happy I can play it. Thanks to all who have contributed.


    I think a lot of great new things could be introduced for better immersion. But AFAIK you rather can't make it without sacrificing some fundamental elements of construction of the main SS mod.
    I mean, this mod should concentrate on itself and do not bother anymore to allow playing clean SS mod in the same installation. It would be better to install the BftB mod separately from the original SS mod - in a separate submod folder - while borrowing as much as needed from its original content.

    Ok, so my ideas move around:

    1) introduction of provincial nobility dynasties closely associated with feudal loyalty/revolt system between them and the faction ruler. Consequences of disloyalty may vary up to external military intervention.

    The idea of dynasties is not new but so far not too much explored in other mods and this mod is truly unique occasion for that matter - having multitude of regions and limited number of factions.

    What is most important for the gameplay: each dynasty has its own political preferences and usually differs on a number of issues with other dynasties of the same faction regarding topics like: who to wage war against or to maintain a peace with, which general from which dynasty is emperor/king/prince, which province/dynasty is granted by the ruler to build a top level exclusive military or civil building/technology, what type of economy is allowed in their province etc.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    In short, each provincial dynasty would be ruling of bunch of regions making together a historical province (thanks to unique model of the BftB it is possible). So only members of that dynasty (family) are allowed to govern settlements in that province - generals of other dynasty are not allowed without presence of local host, otherwise the settlement will rebel. The exception is a faction ruler and his top royal generals (but few).

    Depending on above mentioned variables concernig politics, administration, economy, etc., the dynasties are more or less loyal to the ruler and respect his decisions. Of course, some dynasties or groups of dynasties consider themselves rival and thus set scene for the conflicts. Likewise, in some cases like external threat (say, Mongol invasion) these conflicts tend to cease, and in other cases they tend to grow to extraordinary dimensions - like in a period of prolonged peace and prosperity. Some factions are more prone to internal conflicts than others - like HRE.

    If some dynasty is not happy - whatever the reason - it may be a cause of serious problems like:
    - blocking recruitment of high level nobility military units in all settlements belonging to that dynasty for a number of turns or increasing costs of their recruitment/maintenance, and deserting of such units from armies or royal generals
    - blocking availability of buildings not desired in the province (guild, orders, military, civil) or increasing their cost of building
    - trade rights are cancelled or war is near or declared by external faction interfering in internal affairs and supporting the cause of discontent dynasty.
    - ploting against ruler and sending an inquisitor and/or killer against him
    - appearance of the anti-emperor/king challenger - if the opposition is more widespread and strong
    - peaceful deposing of current ruler and forcing him into exile if the opposition is particulalrly widespread and strong both provincial and in royal/imperial court. The reason could be for example a string of defeats, defamation that found popularity, excommunication etc. However, there could be a risk of other side of the same effect - this could provoke external military intervention.
    - whole province with all its settlements and generals openly rebels - there is a home civil war.
    - whole province with all its settlements and generals turn coats with some other (neighbour or enemy faction) - it means immidiate war to recover lost provinc, external military intervention not excluded (say, a whole German province rebels and defects to France* or Danemark or Lombard League* etc).

    So we can imagine HRE emperor to be taken by surprise that what seemed just a discontent of one provincial lord rapidly turned into his betrayal to other faction with whole province, and worse, soon followed by military intervention.

    So this intervention would mean simply spawning armies and enforced relations of war in diplomacy. These armies may belong to playable AI faction already existing in the mod, but I think it is worth considering to slightly modify the map on the borders to include some additional factions, though unplayable and unconquerable (due to impassable terrain) - like France, Lombard League or Hungary. All that just to justify and effectively implement scenario of external military intervention. Of course this means some extra modding work.


    Anyway, I believe that introducing dynasties is ultimately more beneficial than simple spliting states like Poland or HRE into several separate factions.


    2) Jihad function could be added to the Mongols, so that they could reach and devastate far destinations up to Frankfurt, Marienburg or Kobenhavn, not only disturbing closest neighbours like Poland, Lithuania and Rus. I think it's not only more accurate historically but crucially better for overall gameplay balance and more fun if, say, suddenly your seemingly undisturbed HRE empire must face huge invading army of dreaded Mongols.

    3) Ruins - this effect could happen after conquering a town, if the player chooses 3rd option to kill all inhabitants. Then the town (not castle) is turned into ruins which means nothing can be built by any faction in that place for several long turns. But this option cannot be abused, so should be rather restricted and available only to minor towns.

    4) Military units could be provincilized (regionalized), but I am talking about provincial dynasty system, not AOR, and this potentially means several interesting effects:
    - First - units recruited in one province can be under command of general coming only from the same province. So similarly like with settlements, generals from other dynasties can't command them. The only exception is the ruler and top royal commanders.
    - Second - if the provincial lord is upset (low loyalty) with the ruler, his provincial units in army commanded by the ruler (or royal generals) simply desert (disappear) from that army. Same effect if whole province openly rebels.
    - Third - battle banners and unit cards mark a province in which they were were recruited.

    5) Introduction of the Brüder von Dobrin Order - my only idea about new units. Link to Wikipedia



    Probably it was already discussed. Indeed, historically they played relatively little historical significance, and ceased to exist just before 1250. BUT. But my arguments are that:
    • the order could be introduced only in the very beginning of the Polish campaign and without possibility to recruit new members or even to retrain them, so all these knights could dissappear when they all die off in battles.
    • I see a very solid argument to have them available for custom /multiplayer battles, and to introduce this little known but very interesting unit into M2TW community.


    that's it, and thank you for your attention.
    1) and 4) sound nice, especially to cut up the HRE and Poland a bit into the patch of fealties they were back then. But also looks like A LOT of coding, so it'll be up to CC's willingness and capacities.

    2) sounds a bit fishy, there is no crusade option for western factions and units are really hard to aquire in the beginning of the game. Historically, I think it would be more accurate for Mongols to take over the land province by province instead of one sudden dash forward under religious motives (which were not very good motives for the mongols form what I know). Also the mongols are not as fearsome as in the full-map campaign, since they don't start off with 3 full stacks of 6 chevron horse archer-killing machines, so their succes would be very limited.

    3) I also proposed something where you could 'raid' a town => looting it but not conquering the region. However, the BftB map is mostely dominated by villages and motte & bailley's, where you cannot build anything even under normal conditions (except for a mustering hall to get peasants), so there's not much to ruin (apart from the town square perhaps, but this is a building which the AI really needs to keep control). Also, would you still conquer the region with this option, it would be pretty much shooting yourself in the foot and thus rather redundant.

    5) the campaigns starts in 1250, 15 years after the last mentioning of those brethren. at it's peak there were 35 knights and most of those merged with the order, so historical representation would mean a unit of 5-10 knights which probably died 10 years before the campaign starts. Perhaps Livonian knights would make more sense, since those are absent as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  8. #28
    Darius_D's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterbruder44 View Post
    2) sounds a bit fishy, there is no crusade option for western factions and units are really hard to aquire in the beginning of the game. Historically, I think it would be more accurate for Mongols to take over the land province by province instead of one sudden dash forward under religious motives (which were not very good motives for the mongols form what I know). Also the mongols are not as fearsome as in the full-map campaign, since they don't start off with 3 full stacks of 6 chevron horse archer-killing machines, so their succes would be very limited.
    The upkeep of units is free when in jihad, so it would rather help to balance Mongols. Besides a script could spawn additional stacks of Mongols each time they announced a new raid. Just jihad shall be renamed into "mongol raid" or something.

    I think jihad option is the best way to simultate Mongols' raids deep into enemy territory, as it was customary for their warfare in that time and in centuries to come.
    Indeed, only jihad for Mongols is needed, no need for crusade option for the TO or other Catholic factions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterbruder44 View Post
    5) the campaigns starts in 1250, 15 years after the last mentioning of those brethren. at it's peak there were 35 knights and most of those merged with the order, so historical representation would mean a unit of 5-10 knights which probably died 10 years before the campaign starts. Perhaps Livonian knights would make more sense, since those are absent as well.
    Perfect, Livonian knights shall be in as well. At least for custom battles, because those three orders (Teutonic, Livonian and Dobryn) perfectly fit for the theme of the mod.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius_D View Post
    The upkeep of units is free when in jihad, so it would rather help to balance Mongols. Besides a script could spawn additional stacks of Mongols each time they announced a new raid. Just jihad shall be renamed into "mongol raid" or something.

    I think jihad option is the best way to simultate Mongols' raids deep into enemy territory, as it was customary for their warfare in that time and in centuries to come.
    Indeed, only jihad for Mongols is needed, no need for crusade option for the TO or other Catholic factions.
    In that case, recruitment is gonne need vast modification, or Poland will be done for by turn 10

    Perfect, Livonian knights shall be in as well. At least for custom battles, because those three orders (Teutonic, Livonian and Dobryn) perfectly fit for the theme of the mod.
    But the Dobryn don't fit the timescale
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  10. #30
    Aragorn1963's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterbruder44 View Post
    Perhaps increase the number of available mercenaries (= German/French/English crusader units)
    If heavy infantry is really forming a problem, you still have mass amounts of heavy cavalry, which are the best on the map.
    As I understand there probably is a need for heavy infantry in the theatre, a 123 dismounted Ritterbrüder unit would probably be more than there ever have been Teutonic knights at one point in time during the entire Baltic crusades.
    (And in my opinion, Polish heavy infantry offers a challenge rather than turning Pagans into mincemeat )
    1274 AD, turn 43. It is still impossible to retrain my Dienende Brüder units. Mercenary units can be retrained, but not the DB units. That is definitely something I would like to see changed. They are very useful.
    Last edited by Aragorn1963; February 18, 2013 at 11:27 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Id really like too see you add a few of the more popular mods too BftB CC,this mod has alot of potential and could do with some fresh content.

  12. #32
    Aragorn1963's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo582 View Post
    Id really like too see you add a few of the more popular mods too BftB CC,this mod has alot of potential and could do with some fresh content.
    I agree. I prefer this mod over the other Baltic mod (no offense, also a fine job), but it does need some freshing up, especially with regard to the variety of units.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    is this dead?

  14. #34

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Its included in RRRC if that’s any help.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Suggestions for the next version of Battle for the Baltic

    Aragorn, you can modify EDB yourself to make that unit repairable. And the method is save-compatible too.

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