With Fire and Sword 2 (Огнем и Мечом (II) 2: Total War ) !!!!RELEASE!!!! v 0.9.2 BETA

[komatozz911]

generals not ready yet..

yes, for example sipahi for turks, chambul-bey for tatars... eastern factions have only unique units))) like almost every other factions, exept for western factions, but each of them have unique units...

as for mercenaries we still think about it... first target its make base of mod with not march features... we dont have a lot of peoples who make mod, only 2 persons work permanently...

[rafalek91]

if you want i can give you some example of unique units for western factions with pictures. i can help you with units descriptions if you give me list of units for each factions

[sihill]

Ye, komatozz, if you want help, just write what do you need. 2 people in mod maker team its not many, so we will help you however we can.

[wiciu11111]

komatozz Do you think about some video previev of mod??

[komatozz911]

if somebody do it))

[AppS]

KamilW

Watpie czy ich przekonasz. Probowalem juz ich przekonywac co do kozakow. Wedlug mnie tez nie wygladaja jak powinni wygladac, ale ich to nie interesuje. Serio, poczytaj sobie co wczesniej pisali. Oni uwazaja ze ich modele sa idealne, wszystkie inne modele sa do dupy. No i co zrobisz? Oni maja swoje wlasne rosyjskie zrodla i te zrodla, nie oszukujmy sie , sa najlepsze.

The appearance of Cossacks is based on the modern research of Ukrainian historians and archaeologists, not fantasy artists of the late 19th-early 20th century. So as some in this topic see the Cossacks, more typical of the period of civil war 1917-21

They were peasants (in peace time) and they should wear peasant dresses. Only officers, atamans had beautiful clothes. Most of the cossacks did not. Every film, every book, every painting, every picture proves me right. And if you find a picture with cossacks wearing beautiful clothes, well, be sure they aren't wearing this to go to war and are probably officers of some sort or are registered cossacks.

1652

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[KamilW]

KamilW
The appearance of Cossacks is based on the modern research of Ukrainian historians and archaeologists, not fantasy artists of the late 19th-early 20th century. So as some in this topic see the Cossacks, more typical of the period of civil war 1917-21

Whatever man, I'm done trying to convince you about anything. So what do you have? One Ukrainian source? Oh yeah, they did research, right? Well, if you're smart, you know how 'research' works. Someone finds something, he's done research. Two years later somebody else does some research and says somethings else.

So we're still talking about your sources against thousands of other sources. And yes, your source is the right one. Sure! We all know something about history here, some more than others. I'm not going to pretend I'm a specialist, I'm not. But I know things too and I'm not dumb. Tell me, how come other people agree with me (like the Polish people in this thread) and only you Russians and Ukrainians don't?

I said I was done with the discussion about hussars and cossacks, but hey, if you keep pushing me, I can't shut up. It's my nature.

[Vladyvid]

Cossacks were not all peasant-like, neither were they all like the uniformed ones. There were both kinds of cossacks, and you guys should stop fighting over this issue because you're both right and wrong at the same time. Cossacks were not all the same because of several factors:

- the term Cossack was used regarding to native Ukraininan (among them Zaporozhyan) Cossacks
- the same term Cossacks was used regarding to Don Cossacks (so not Ukraininan, but Russian)
- the same term Cossacks was used within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth regarding light cavalry soldiers and some of them were not even Rus or Ukrainian at all and they were uniformed
- finally the same name - Cossacks - was used within the above mentioned Commonwealth regarding the so called Registered Cossacks who were mostly uniformed as they could afford it

In reality, many of the Cossacks living within the Commonwealth were rich enough to be equal to polish nobility (at least to the lesser echelons) and many were accepted into nobility and given commanding positions equal to at least present day Colonel rank. One of the reasons for the Commonwealth Cossacks to start uprisings was against being treated like peasants - which they weren't. I think the simpliest way to say what was a Cossack would be to call them warriors. Warriors are not peasants - even if they are poor warriors who appear to wear peasant-like clothes. At the same time, what might seem peasant-like for the Poles, might not be peasant-like for Ukraininans, hence the so many misconceptions.

Basicly it was a fact that Ukrainians, Russians, Poles and probably members of a couple of other nationalities living in that area called themselves Cossacks at times, and in present day Poland (I'm Polish so I know) people do call certain persons Cossacks, without having no relation to Ukraine or Ukraininan/Cossack culture, but only to describe that they are brave, perhaps reckless, vigorous, bit 'crazy' but overall it is a term of endearment, a good thing to be called.

I think, or from what I know, to be a Cossack meant to be a free man living in the Ukraine/Rus lands, who was a fighter/warrior.

Long live the Cossack Glory! Pozdravlayu i pozdrawiam.

[AppS]

KamilW

So what do you have? One Ukrainian source?

Polish. % )) It`s about Berestechko 1651

and what can you offer in support of your words?
not thousands. enough one source against one source

[KamilW]

Cossacks were not all peasant-like, neither were they all like the uniformed ones. There were both kinds of cossacks,

That's what I've been saying the whole time. Of course there are two kinds of cossacks. The mod team showed us pictures of cossack units, ALL WITH UNIFORMS, and I gave feedback saying that there should also be cossacks who look a bit poorer and wear other clothes. Because the ones I saw in the screenshots looked like an army of clones (exaggeration, I'm aware of that): all the uniform. But the mod team didn't agree and said cossacks looked like in the models and they didn't wear for example baggy trousers or white shirts, nor did they go outside without hat. So that's what I've been saying the whole time. Cossacks are not all the same and they should not all wear uniforms. Damn, does anybody read what I write anyway? I don't think so.

By the way, Vladyvid, I have a question. I know they were warriors, everybody knows that. But how come you read in some books they were farmers during peace time. So? They were, what else could they do? I don't think the only thing they did is fighting and raiding villages the whole time. Many of them were warriors by profession so to speak, but many cossacks were farmers and many of them (not all) only fought when it was necessary or when they were called upon. Right or not?

@Apps

As for the source, it's Polish, you say. Ah well, my bad! It's still one source against so many others. And I'm not going to give you one, because I don't have to. I know I'm right. I've read my share and I know things too. I'm not going to a library right now because you want a source from me. I'm not going to look for one on the Internet too. I don't have to. You know there are many sources that give a different picture of cossacks than the picture in your source. Just type cossack on the Internet and go to a random historical website, you'll see. If you were to take a random book, this book would prove I'm right. Go to the shop, take a random history book about the 16-17th century wars or even a book about cossacks, I don't know. Whatever you can find. And I assure you that book will prove me right. You really think you're clever, don't you?! You think you have a book or source from the 16th century and that source is the best you can get? Why? Because it's from that exact period? If you'd know something about history, you'd know that people not always write or paint things the way they are. People had imagination too in that period. Many old historical sources are not trustworthy because of that fact. So don't think you're right just because you have a source from that period. So, are we done? Several people here say I'm right. Mod teams says I'm not right. You do whatever you want to do, stubborn .

[Vladyvid]

By the way, Vladyvid, I have a question. I know they were warriors, everybody knows that. But how come you read in some books they were farmers during peace time. So? They were, what else could they do? I don't think the only thing they did is fighting and raiding villages the whole time. Many of them were warriors by profession so to speak, but many cossacks were farmers and many of them (not all) only fought when it was necessary or when they were called upon. Right or not?

Hmm, honestly I don't know about if they were working on their own fields like farmers. Maybe you're right I don't know. I could only say that very poor polish nobility who had no money for servants, worked on their own fields themselves and would be probably seen as peasants by lets say western european nobles. There were even some so poor polish nobility members who had no land at all, called golota (gołota) and they would be by some standards even poorer than peasants. The only thing they had was their identity, which could be similar with some poor Cossacks and their identity as a group of people.

The mod team showed us pictures of cossack units, ALL WITH UNIFORMS, and I gave feedback saying that there should also be cossacks who look a bit poorer and wear other clothes.

The mod team is doing very good work with their models I think, so even if you think they are wrong about something is not more important than the fact that they have done a lot of good work that deserves appreciation. I mean, they might call those poor cossacks you are talking about to be something else, and I think that's ok because the overall result is more important than fighting if a unit should be called cossack or not. They are the mod team and it's their work, their mod. They have a right to do things how they think is best in their opinion, and I guess whether you are right or not you should first respect their own ideas. They know your opinion, so if they like it, or if they think you have some good suggestions then maybe they will consider them, but I think you should stop at giving your opinion and not trying to convince them about something they don't think is right. Sometimes it's better to be wrong for the sake of the bigger picture. This mod team is doing a really good job and I would prefer to be wrong than upset them with a quarrel that seems to have no resolution. Different nations sometimes see certain things differently and perhaps in their perspective what you call poor cossacks, is called something else. You don't have to agree with that, but you should accept their decisions as its their hard work.

[wiciu11111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR8G3fEEnx4

[AppS]

KamilW

Ah well, my bad! It's still one source against so many others.

Where are they? % ))))
So far I read only does not confirm the opinion, but fantasies.

And I'm not going to give you one, because I don't have to. I know I'm right. I've read my share and I know things too. I'm not going to a library right now because you want a source from me. I'm not going to look for one on the Internet too. I don't have to. You know there are many sources that give a different picture of cossacks than the picture in your source. Just type cossack on the Internet and go to a random historical website, you'll see. If you were to take a random book, this book would prove I'm right. Go to the shop, take a random history book about the 16-17th century wars or even a book about cossacks, I don't know. Whatever you can find. And I assure you that book will prove me right. You really think you're clever, don't you?!

And Khmelnitsky helped the aliens. I know I'm right. I've read my share and I know things too. I'm not going to a library right now because you want a source from me. I'm not going to look for one on the Internet too. I don't have to. You know there are many sources - read the beginning of the book Sienkiewicz - Latem zdarzyło się wielkie zaćmienie słońca, a wkrótce potem kometa pojawiła się na niebie. W Warszawie widywano też nad miastem mogiłę i krzyż ognisty w obłokach; odprawiano więc posty i dawano jałmużny, gdyż niektórzy twierdzili, że zaraza spadnie na kraj i wygubi rodzaj ludzki.


Again, the discussion is good. When there is an exchange of views, basics on fact - it was good. The exchange of fantasies I have already passed several years ago and now it's a waste of time.
It's simple - people put forward the thesis - it proves it. This is the practice of historical science.
Without facts, your post no more than a useless flood non specialist.

You really think you're clever, don't you?!

Yes I am. Some people in certain matters they know more than others. This is normal.

I have a question. I know they were warriors, everybody knows that. But how come you read in some books they were farmers during peace time. So? They were, what else could they do? I don't think the only thing they did is fighting and raiding villages the whole time. Many of them were warriors by profession so to speak, but many cossacks were farmers and many of them (not all) only fought when it was necessary or when they were called upon. Right or not?

I brought you a special picture of the peasants in the previous report. You have a distorted view of the peasants. Less than watch movies and more paintings and drawings 17th century Look again Polish picture "peasant and death"

[komatozz911]

wiciu1111, i've seen it before)) great video, but some models are old...

[komatozz911]

Some new screens:






imperial musketeers and mercenaries swiss pikemen

[KamilW]

@Apps

You want a source? I'll give you one. The reason I didn't give you a source is the following: from the beginning you made it clear that almost every picture or source on the Internet is fantasy, therefore my opinion about cossacks is fantasy. So why should I give you a source? So you can say again it's all fantasy and your source is real? C'mon! What do you think about what Vladyvid said? He said you and I are both right, but he didn't understand what I've said. Reading his post, it seems he was thinking I said that ALL cossacks should look like peasants. I didn't say that. Let's be clear before we go further. I'm saying that there were cossacks with nice clothes and cossacks who dressed like peasants (poorly). You're saying they all dressed in a fairly nice way and didn't look like peasants. Vladyvid is saying exactly what I've been saying the whole time. So, according to him, my 'fantasy' is correct. So what, he's wrong too?

Here's your source, from a forum about history: http://lastinn.info/systemy-i-dyskus...-obrazach.html. You know Polish right? And since you've read quite some lines sinces the beginning of this conversation, I'm sure you have enough time to look for a picture of cossacks on that forum. But why do I bother. Everybody knows you're going to say those pictures are fantasy. Yeah, sure!

But what the hell, here's another one, quite reliable if you ask me: http://www.rp.pl/galeria/428213,2,491745.html

And another one, from the website of a university: http://www.puls.uni.lodz.pl/numery/23/kozacy.html

While you're at it, take a look at this picture (it's a modern one): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Za...ment,_1990.JPG

Just pure logic. If that's the Zaporozhian Cossacks movement, I'm sure they know the best how their forefathers dressed, right?

BOTTOM LINE: So, like I said. There were cossacks who had uniforms, some of them quite nice, some of them old, dirty and poor. Some cossacks had very rich clothing as well. But many cossacks didn't have uniforms like we like to call it. They wore poor simple clothes, more or less like peasants. Perhaps a little better or perhaps a little worse. Don't be so stubborn, man. Do the math. Do you really think every cossack had the money to buy a nice or regular or even an old uniform? If your answer to that is "yes", then I know with whom I dealing with and this conversation is over to me. If your answer is yes, then you're more stupid than a horse's backside.

And why the hell are you talking about aliens? And what does the Ogniem i Mieczem extract has to do with any of this? And the last paragraph of your post... I don't understand it. So before saying you're so clever, smart ass, learn to write English properly. And if you can't, then go have discussions with someone else in another language, not in English.

@Vladyvid

First of all, Vladyvid, you didn't understand what I've been saying the whole time. You said that Apps and I are both right, but you didn't understand what I've said. Reading your post, it seems you were thinking I said that ALL cossacks should like peasants. I didn't say that. So let's be clear before we go further. I'm saying there were cossacks with nice clothes and cossacks who dressed like peasants (poorly). Apps seem to be saying they all dressed in a fairly nice way and didn't look like peasants. So you're basically saying exactly the same what I've been saying the whole time. So, according to you, I'm the one who's right.

Secondly, the mod team has done a terrific job indeed. Please don't talk to me like I'm all negative about this mod. I'm not! Look at some posts from the past about this mod (different thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ars+of&page=18).

I've congratulated them with their great work. I've praised their work. I said I loved the first OiM and that I'm looking forward for the mod to be released. I was very positive about many models. All positive things. And now someone has said something bad about a model, I said that person is right, and I'm the bad guy now, a guy who doesn't appreciate the team's hard work? Damn, this world is cruel!

@komatozz

Very nice units there! Really, honestly! Much better than the cossacks or hussars in my opinion .

[Vladyvid]

I can be wrong I don't really care. I shut up now, this mod is not my concern, I have my own to worry about.

[danny X]

now this is what i call a cossack:



it was well known that when the horse was tired, the cossack used to carry it, so could you please make the models like this.

All of you who are arguing about what cossacks looked like, you're all wrong im afraid, im right, this is what cossacks really looked like and even how they really used to wield their swords, so all of you please stop arguing now, because:

[AppS]

KamilW

Here's your source, from a forum about history: http://lastinn.info/systemy-i-dyskus...-obrazach.html. You know Polish right? And since you've read quite some lines sinces the beginning of this conversation, I'm sure you have enough time to look for a picture of cossacks on that forum. But why do I bother. Everybody knows you're going to say those pictures are fantasy. Yeah, sure!

Pułkownik kozacki wg Beauplana, Setnik wg Beauplana - in fact - picture XVIIIst (Kalinskij for Rigelman`s book~1780)
Kozacy rejestrowi - unknown painter early XVIIIst - near Mazepa time
rest - modern picture

But what the hell, here's another one, quite reliable if you ask me: http://www.rp.pl/galeria/428213,2,491745.html

Kozacy zaporoscy – typy ludzi i uzbrojenia - modern picture

And another one, from the website of a university: http://www.puls.uni.lodz.pl/numery/23/kozacy.html

first - 1880-91 - Repin - 100y. later after last Z-Sich.
second - zaporozian cossack --- Kalinskij for Rigelman`s book - late 18st more look - http://litopys.org.ua/rigel/rig34.htm

While you're at it, take a look at this picture (it's a modern one): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Za...ment,_1990.JPG
Just pure logic. If that's the Zaporozhian Cossacks movement, I'm sure they know the best how their forefathers dressed, right?

Not right.
If we miss the point that most people in the world do not know how their great-grandfather's name was some 100 years ago, and appeal to the memory regarding the events of 300-400 years ago is simply naive: what concerns image - it's just overall styling for political manifestation

people who real know how their forefathers dressed:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BOTTOM LINE: So, like I said. There were cossacks who had uniforms, some of them quite nice, some of them old, dirty and poor. Some cossacks had very rich clothing as well. But many cossacks didn't have uniforms like we like to call it. They wore poor simple clothes, more or less like peasants. Perhaps a little better or perhaps a little worse. Don't be so stubborn, man. Do the math. Do you really think every cossack had the money to buy a nice or regular or even an old uniform?

I'm losing the thread. %)))
Course was poor and the rich. And they looked at differently. But in addition to clothing is definitely influenced the way of munitions and delivery to the site of the battle. as a consequence of the same team to find a very different will be difficult.

In the late Hetmanat those who were poor and therefore did not have the right outfit, or a good horse for long journeys, were sent to household work. Can be seen in the war years of 1735-39 - someone is going to the Crimea, and on horseback with a gun, and someone with a scythe to cut hay for the needs of the General Artillery.

poor cossacks look like peasants:
typical clothing - the rollout of brown cloth, sandals (postoly), an inexpensive hat trimmed. Unhistorical except embroidery (vishivka) on the shirt - it's a late item, the 19 th century.
What is wrong?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[KamilW]

people who real know how their forefathers dressed:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yes, they too have historical clothing. But like always, there was a variety. Not everyone wore the same thing.

And they looked at differently. But in addition to clothing is definitely influenced the way of munitions and delivery to the site of the battle. as a consequence of the same team to find a very different will be difficult.

I don't understand anything of what you're saying here above.

In the late Hetmanat those who were poor and therefore did not have the right outfit, or a good horse for long journeys, were sent to household work. Can be seen in the war years of 1735-39 - someone is going to the Crimea, and on horseback with a gun, and someone with a scythe to cut hay for the needs of the General Artillery.

Yes, you're right. But are you saying everyone who didn't have proper clothing or a horse were sent to household work? I'm sure that's true for a part. But don't you think that during for example the Chmielnicki Uprising, almost all men went fighting? I'm not saying ALL, I mean ALMOST every man who had a weapon, even a hay fork. It was an uprising, so many 'cossacks' joined Chmielnicki (I don't have to tell you that, you know that). A large part of those who joined Chmielnicki, were poor cossacks who didn't have money for a 'uniform'. But that doesn't mean they didn't go to war! And the fact that they didn't have money for a uniform, doesn't mean they didn't have a weapon. Maybe they had a gun from their grandfather, who knows? I'm quite positive that many cossack men went fighting, not only the ones who were the real fighters, the real mercenaries. The 'regular' men fought too.

poor cossacks look like peasants:
typical clothing - the rollout of brown cloth, sandals (postoly), an inexpensive hat trimmed. Unhistorical except embroidery (vishivka) on the shirt - it's a late item, the 19 th century. What is wrong?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What do you mean by that? That the model is unhistorical or historical? Sorry man, your English isn't very good. Do you mean that ONLY the vishivka is historical or what? I really don't get it. I think what you're trying to say is that model is very historical except for the vishivka, which is unhistorical for the period because it's from the 19th century. If this is what you mean, well... It took me 5 minutes to figure this out.

I'm cool with this model, but why aren't there poor cossack models (like the one you showed) without hats or with white shirts, baggy trousers? Is that unhistorical?